BWSmith
Just another Asp Hole
This is not a typical “Bad Guy” post, but rather an account of what I consider to be unethical practices by Jerry Conway. On December 1 2007, I had a litter of Candoia carinata paulsoni born.
The very short version:
- I gave Jerry Conway 31 baby Candoia for free for the express purpose that he could get them feeding (he offered me $5 each, but I refused to take payment for nonfeeding Candoia). He was to pay $50 shipping.
- Jerry was trying to build his collection back up so I offered to sell the adults to him as a favor to help him out for $400 (he acknowledged this was a favor in the 01/12/08 conversation referenced below)
- I shipped animals before payment because the weather was good and he had a good reputation
- Upon arrival of the animals, he said that the adults were drab and he couldn’t pay more than $50 for them. I told him that was fine and that I would have someone come pick up the adults. He still wanted them badly so I offered him $300 since they were already there and to help him out. He eagerly accepted.
- Jerry puts all of the nonfeeding babies on Kingsnake Classifieds for $50 each. The ad showed them at half the age than they actually were. This may have been unintentional, but he had the birthday in his email.
- The check gets here and clears.
- Jerry puts the adults I sold him on the Kingsnake classifieds for $500.
To me, that is multiple counts of acting unethically. These were all sent him to build his collection back up. Had the agreement been that he was getting them to resell, I would have priced them as such and I would not take issue with it. As stated, I don’t think that it qualifies Jerry Conway as a “Bad Guy”, but rather as someone who acts somewhat unethically.
The longer version is that Jerry wanted to buy all of the babies. I sent him individual photos of all 34 babies. They were all tans and browns. He said that the most he could pay for browns would be $5. While on the phone, he said that he always sold brown babies for $5 or $10 each or just gave them to friends. I told him that I wanted a week or two to see how many I could get feeding since I had some friends that wanted some. After that, I would give him all of the nonfeeding offspring free of charge since he had more experience getting the genus to feed. All I asked was that he pay shipping costs. I expressed that my primary concern was for the well being of the animals and that I was declining his offer to pay for them so that he could get them started feeding. I ended up keeping 3 babies that I got feeding to give to friends and was sending him 31 nonfeeding babies. After several phone calls, he was lamenting at how he was trying build his collection back up so I reluctantly offered to sell him the adult pair. I told him that I could put them online for $500 but that I would sell them to him for $400. I measured them, took current photos, and explained the color changes that they went through (he was, of course, familiar with Candoia color changes).
I decided to ship before payment since the weather was good for shipping, there was a cold front coming in, and Jerry had a good reputation. I knew that he had just broken his wrist and I told him that as long as he kept me in the loop, I could give him until the end of January to pay. He said that he would have payment for me Christmas week. I shipped all 31 babies and the parents on December 16. It was a little cooler than I like as the cold front moved in, but they all made it fine. So far, so good.
I get a notification of delivery so I call Jerry to make sure that they all made it alright. At which point, he starts complaining that adults are more drab than he thought they were and that they were not what he expected and that he could not pay more $50 each for them even though he agreed that they were “Flawless”. So I emailed him “I will arrange for someone to pick up the adults and hold on to them for me until I meet up with them or have another shipment coming up from Florida.” I told him that lowest I would be willing to go is $300 for the pair just because it was helping him out and to save stress on the animals. He immediately replied “SOLD”. So that struck me unethical by trying to lowball me after receiving the animals for ¼ of the agreed upon sale price. But I was trying to be a nice guy so I let it slide.
Then on December 23rd, I get contacted by someone about an ad on Kingsnake (screenshot available). Jerry had posted an ad offering my offspring at $50 each. He had them listed as “approximately 10 days old” when they were actually 23 days old. When dealing with nonfeeding newborns, that 13 days makes a big difference. In the ad, he states that he broke his wrist and can’t deal with the upkeep. However, he broke his wrist prior to me shipping so he should not have taken them on in the first place if he could not handle them. The fact that he would accept free babies under the pretense of getting them started and immediately turn around to sell them strikes me as unethical. The fact that he repeatedly claimed that he always sold brown phase babies for $5 to $10 and then tried to sell them for $50 strikes me as unethical. The fact that the ad had misinformation regarding age strikes me as unethical since he had documentation of the birth date.
I had someone contact me regarding buying a baby and I told him that they all went to Jerry. (mainly Second Hand Information to follow in this paragraph) He had already contacted Jerry regarding the ad for $50 babies. Jerry told him that the babies were $75 and it was another $75 to ship. I had found another baby crawling around after shipping to Jerry. So I gave this individual the baby for the cost of shipping so that he would not have to deal with Jerry (offered on 12/25, shipped on 01/08 to clarify timeline). This individual tacked on an extra $20 out of appreciation. But I will let him come forward and expand on his dealing with Jerry and Myself if he wishes.
After seeing all of that, I sent Jerry an email asking that payment be sent as soon as possible so that we could complete the transaction. I had previously given him until the end of January and I would stand by that if need be, but I was ready to be done dealing with him. He did not get the check out when he predicted, but he did get it out the week after. It was received and cleared with no issue. So I have no complaints about payment.
Finally, Jerry placed another ad on Kingsnake (screenshots available) for an adult pair of proven breeders for $500. The animals that I sold him as a favor to get his collection back up (and doubly discounted). Now of course, I sold them and he bought them so may do with them as he pleases. But I found that to demonstrate a lack of ethics.
I called Jerry January 12, 2008 to express my displeasure and to get his side before posting anything (and took a few notes during the conversation to keep everything straight). I asked about the babies and how he was feeling. I then verified that the adults for sale were in fact the ones that I had just sold to him. He talked at length about another health problem he was enduring that may require surgery. To respect his privacy, I will let Jerry disclose details of the ailment if he wishes. I then told him quite plainly that I found him to be very unethical and that I would never sell him another animal, I would never buy an animal from him, and that I would discourage anyone else from dealing with him. This took him aback a bit and I explained my reasons. I explained that I was not angry, but felt the need to tell him how I felt about the transaction. His explanation about lowballing me on the adults was that it was the New Yorker in him that felt the need to always negotiate. He said that he got 11 of the babies feeding (10 on anoles, one on a Greenhouse frog). This was not reflected in his ads. He told me that the day before (January 11) a friend of his bought all of the babies for “$10 to $12 each” and that he heard from his friend today and they had all been force fed mouse legs. The only explanation he gave for putting the babies up for sale at $50 each was that he had doctor bills to pay. I let him talk and explain his side of everything. I then reiterated that I thought that he acted unethically for which he apologized multiple times. I told him that I was not angry, it was simply that we each had different moral values and that his were below the level of people I like to work with. I also told him how I would have handled the situation had I been in his place. The entire conversation was very civil and it was understood that it would probably be our last direct communication.
So like I said, this is not necessarily a “Bad Guy” thread. But it is meant to demonstrate what I perceive as a pattern of repeatedly unethical behavior. Others may not perceive it in the same light. I am simply putting the information out there. I do not dislike him and I have enjoyed speaking with him several times in December. However, I will never sell him another animal, I will never buy an animal from him, and I would not recommend him to anyone. In our final conversation, he acknowledged that he would understand if I shared my displeasure to others, but would, naturally, prefer if I didn’t. He once again apologized that I felt the way I did (not for what he did), I wished him the best on his health issues, and I believe that we ended our association civilly and with no ill will. I will be sending him a link to this thread once it is posted so that he can present his side and explanations if he wishes so that viewers can draw their own conclusions from the information presented.
**And as always, screen shots of the ads and all emails are available. Much of the transaction was over the phone as demonstrated by many of his emails being short and ending with “call me”. It is understandable with an injured wrist.**
The very short version:
- I gave Jerry Conway 31 baby Candoia for free for the express purpose that he could get them feeding (he offered me $5 each, but I refused to take payment for nonfeeding Candoia). He was to pay $50 shipping.
- Jerry was trying to build his collection back up so I offered to sell the adults to him as a favor to help him out for $400 (he acknowledged this was a favor in the 01/12/08 conversation referenced below)
- I shipped animals before payment because the weather was good and he had a good reputation
- Upon arrival of the animals, he said that the adults were drab and he couldn’t pay more than $50 for them. I told him that was fine and that I would have someone come pick up the adults. He still wanted them badly so I offered him $300 since they were already there and to help him out. He eagerly accepted.
- Jerry puts all of the nonfeeding babies on Kingsnake Classifieds for $50 each. The ad showed them at half the age than they actually were. This may have been unintentional, but he had the birthday in his email.
- The check gets here and clears.
- Jerry puts the adults I sold him on the Kingsnake classifieds for $500.
To me, that is multiple counts of acting unethically. These were all sent him to build his collection back up. Had the agreement been that he was getting them to resell, I would have priced them as such and I would not take issue with it. As stated, I don’t think that it qualifies Jerry Conway as a “Bad Guy”, but rather as someone who acts somewhat unethically.
The longer version is that Jerry wanted to buy all of the babies. I sent him individual photos of all 34 babies. They were all tans and browns. He said that the most he could pay for browns would be $5. While on the phone, he said that he always sold brown babies for $5 or $10 each or just gave them to friends. I told him that I wanted a week or two to see how many I could get feeding since I had some friends that wanted some. After that, I would give him all of the nonfeeding offspring free of charge since he had more experience getting the genus to feed. All I asked was that he pay shipping costs. I expressed that my primary concern was for the well being of the animals and that I was declining his offer to pay for them so that he could get them started feeding. I ended up keeping 3 babies that I got feeding to give to friends and was sending him 31 nonfeeding babies. After several phone calls, he was lamenting at how he was trying build his collection back up so I reluctantly offered to sell him the adult pair. I told him that I could put them online for $500 but that I would sell them to him for $400. I measured them, took current photos, and explained the color changes that they went through (he was, of course, familiar with Candoia color changes).
I decided to ship before payment since the weather was good for shipping, there was a cold front coming in, and Jerry had a good reputation. I knew that he had just broken his wrist and I told him that as long as he kept me in the loop, I could give him until the end of January to pay. He said that he would have payment for me Christmas week. I shipped all 31 babies and the parents on December 16. It was a little cooler than I like as the cold front moved in, but they all made it fine. So far, so good.
I get a notification of delivery so I call Jerry to make sure that they all made it alright. At which point, he starts complaining that adults are more drab than he thought they were and that they were not what he expected and that he could not pay more $50 each for them even though he agreed that they were “Flawless”. So I emailed him “I will arrange for someone to pick up the adults and hold on to them for me until I meet up with them or have another shipment coming up from Florida.” I told him that lowest I would be willing to go is $300 for the pair just because it was helping him out and to save stress on the animals. He immediately replied “SOLD”. So that struck me unethical by trying to lowball me after receiving the animals for ¼ of the agreed upon sale price. But I was trying to be a nice guy so I let it slide.
Then on December 23rd, I get contacted by someone about an ad on Kingsnake (screenshot available). Jerry had posted an ad offering my offspring at $50 each. He had them listed as “approximately 10 days old” when they were actually 23 days old. When dealing with nonfeeding newborns, that 13 days makes a big difference. In the ad, he states that he broke his wrist and can’t deal with the upkeep. However, he broke his wrist prior to me shipping so he should not have taken them on in the first place if he could not handle them. The fact that he would accept free babies under the pretense of getting them started and immediately turn around to sell them strikes me as unethical. The fact that he repeatedly claimed that he always sold brown phase babies for $5 to $10 and then tried to sell them for $50 strikes me as unethical. The fact that the ad had misinformation regarding age strikes me as unethical since he had documentation of the birth date.
I had someone contact me regarding buying a baby and I told him that they all went to Jerry. (mainly Second Hand Information to follow in this paragraph) He had already contacted Jerry regarding the ad for $50 babies. Jerry told him that the babies were $75 and it was another $75 to ship. I had found another baby crawling around after shipping to Jerry. So I gave this individual the baby for the cost of shipping so that he would not have to deal with Jerry (offered on 12/25, shipped on 01/08 to clarify timeline). This individual tacked on an extra $20 out of appreciation. But I will let him come forward and expand on his dealing with Jerry and Myself if he wishes.
After seeing all of that, I sent Jerry an email asking that payment be sent as soon as possible so that we could complete the transaction. I had previously given him until the end of January and I would stand by that if need be, but I was ready to be done dealing with him. He did not get the check out when he predicted, but he did get it out the week after. It was received and cleared with no issue. So I have no complaints about payment.
Finally, Jerry placed another ad on Kingsnake (screenshots available) for an adult pair of proven breeders for $500. The animals that I sold him as a favor to get his collection back up (and doubly discounted). Now of course, I sold them and he bought them so may do with them as he pleases. But I found that to demonstrate a lack of ethics.
I called Jerry January 12, 2008 to express my displeasure and to get his side before posting anything (and took a few notes during the conversation to keep everything straight). I asked about the babies and how he was feeling. I then verified that the adults for sale were in fact the ones that I had just sold to him. He talked at length about another health problem he was enduring that may require surgery. To respect his privacy, I will let Jerry disclose details of the ailment if he wishes. I then told him quite plainly that I found him to be very unethical and that I would never sell him another animal, I would never buy an animal from him, and that I would discourage anyone else from dealing with him. This took him aback a bit and I explained my reasons. I explained that I was not angry, but felt the need to tell him how I felt about the transaction. His explanation about lowballing me on the adults was that it was the New Yorker in him that felt the need to always negotiate. He said that he got 11 of the babies feeding (10 on anoles, one on a Greenhouse frog). This was not reflected in his ads. He told me that the day before (January 11) a friend of his bought all of the babies for “$10 to $12 each” and that he heard from his friend today and they had all been force fed mouse legs. The only explanation he gave for putting the babies up for sale at $50 each was that he had doctor bills to pay. I let him talk and explain his side of everything. I then reiterated that I thought that he acted unethically for which he apologized multiple times. I told him that I was not angry, it was simply that we each had different moral values and that his were below the level of people I like to work with. I also told him how I would have handled the situation had I been in his place. The entire conversation was very civil and it was understood that it would probably be our last direct communication.
So like I said, this is not necessarily a “Bad Guy” thread. But it is meant to demonstrate what I perceive as a pattern of repeatedly unethical behavior. Others may not perceive it in the same light. I am simply putting the information out there. I do not dislike him and I have enjoyed speaking with him several times in December. However, I will never sell him another animal, I will never buy an animal from him, and I would not recommend him to anyone. In our final conversation, he acknowledged that he would understand if I shared my displeasure to others, but would, naturally, prefer if I didn’t. He once again apologized that I felt the way I did (not for what he did), I wished him the best on his health issues, and I believe that we ended our association civilly and with no ill will. I will be sending him a link to this thread once it is posted so that he can present his side and explanations if he wishes so that viewers can draw their own conclusions from the information presented.
**And as always, screen shots of the ads and all emails are available. Much of the transaction was over the phone as demonstrated by many of his emails being short and ending with “call me”. It is understandable with an injured wrist.**
