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Info Jesus Blackman AKA Tigger the Tiger

the way i see it, he "gave" you this animal in return for a service (being driving the paradox thingy to him). therefore, legally it is your animal to do with it as you see fit.

now getting into the moral/ethical side of things is not cut and dry, and is more of a grey area and each person will have their thoughts on it.

personally, reading this and reading a couple separate times, i think its not immoral or unethical. the reason being is that a service had been provided for that snake. now, should he have gotten that snake out of pure generosity with absolutely no strings, that is a whole different set of stuff. but the fact is, a trade was initially in play, and he drove a snake down to the recipient and instead of trading, (you would have to assume) the recipient said here is one of my (whatever, in this case sutiger het amel), thank you for driving this snake to me, rather than pay shipping

please point out what (if anything) i am missing
 
The simplest way to resolve that particular issue is for both parties to say whether Jesus stipulated that the animal was to come back to him if Andrew decided not to keep it for any reason WHEN HE GAVE IT TO HIM. If so, then I can understand him being upset when he saw it for sale. If it is something that Jesus pulled out when he saw the ad, then he doesn't have a leg to stand on (IMO)...though I don't think anybody would fault him for deciding not to give Andrew anything else for free. If it wasn't stipulated before it was given, then Jesus STOLE the snake from the table at the show (again, IMO).
 
That still doesn't justify Jesus' insistence that the paradox tiger is a blonde, when the breeder told him (and others) that it is a het. If Bob can admit that he isn't sure, what's the problem with Jesus openly passing that along in the ad?
 
aleria said:
The old saying still rings true, two wrongs don't make a right. His bad behavior is no excuse for you having also done wrong. Your word is all you can stand on and if you give someone your word that you will either keep an animal or give it back if you decide you don't want it then that is exactly what you should do. If you can't manage that then what you say in the future will always be tainted by that instance of going back on your word.

No it's not ok for someone to do most of the things he did, but, as I stated, it doesn't mean what you did was ok either. And from the way it seems, everything was ok between you two until you went back on your word and that is when he started making some bad decisions in his handling of the situation. If you had remained true to your word then there wouldn't have been a reason for him to be upset about you lying to him and the whole situation could have been avoided.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this.

Andrew, you mention that you should never have dealt with Jesus and nothing but trouble would come of associating with him, and yet you were the one that instigated the entire situation.

The bottom line is that you perpetuated a bad situation and then act like you've been victimized by someone else's negative reaction toward it. This reminds me of the story where the burglar falls out the window of someone's house and then tries to press charges... although at least the burglar had the balls to break in, where as you simply kept denying the deed you were trying to perform the entire time.

In the end, it is your actions that make you out to be an untrustworthy person. While his reaction was also wrong it was simply that, a reaction to your lies and disrespect.
 
Let me get this out in the open. The snake was given to Andrew as a gift. Andrew was going to trade me a couple retics for my suntiger het amel. After speaking to my wife, it was decided that I didn't have the cage space. Now mind you Andrew already had the snake in his possession even when i didn't have a single snake that was part of our trade. I didn't want to have him drive it back to my home. Once again it was a gift, and not for any services rendered. Andrew's posts here are comical at best, as we can all see the text messages between the both of us. Andrew acknowledged our agreement but yet and still he tried to sell it behind my back. First he said he was selling it to get money for scrub pythons, now he was selling it for gas..lol....which one is it.....you can read in the text messages where I reference to our agreement, and Andrew apologies for everything even saying that he understands why I took back the snake. Andrew is not a man of his word as evident by this situation. And even if this paradox tiger had ANY problems, way to look out for someone who looked out for you Andrew. I would NEVER let a friend or someone buy a snake with ANY problems. I gave Andrew that snake out of the kindness of my heart. The same kindness that prompted me to give Robert AND his friend one, Greg Beaton, and Gus Lowe and Adam Tawfeek.
 
Robert - if the stipulation wasn't made before (or, at least, at the time) the snake was given, how do you justify Jesus just demanding it back when he sees it for sale? Clearly you are a friend of Jesus', and you feel he was in the right. But how about letting him address the question I posted to him and Andrew, so the rest of us can make an informed decision based on actual facts.
 
hhmoore said:
That still doesn't justify Jesus' insistence that the paradox tiger is a blonde, when the breeder told him (and others) that it is a het. If Bob can admit that he isn't sure, what's the problem with Jesus openly passing that along in the ad?
Click to expand...

I agree, from the sounds of it the amount of paradox on the snake makes it very difficult/impossible for even a seasoned breeder to know for sure.


reticguy76 said:
the way i see it, he "gave" you this animal in return for a service (being driving the paradox thingy to him). therefore, legally it is your animal to do with it as you see fit.

now getting into the moral/ethical side of things is not cut and dry, and is more of a grey area and each person will have their thoughts on it.

personally, reading this and reading a couple separate times, i think its not immoral or unethical. the reason being is that a service had been provided for that snake. now, should he have gotten that snake out of pure generosity with absolutely no strings, that is a whole different set of stuff. but the fact is, a trade was initially in play, and he drove a snake down to the recipient and instead of trading, (you would have to assume) the recipient said here is one of my (whatever, in this case sutiger het amel), thank you for driving this snake to me, rather than pay shipping

please point out what (if anything) i am missing
Click to expand...

While they have increased the bridge tolls, I'm pretty sure that people don't get paid in excess of $350 (or whatever Andrew's attempted sale price was) for delivering a snake from NJ to Philadelphia. He told Jesus he wanted the snake and then immediately resorted to selling it for profit.

IMO this is pretty cut and dry stuff.

Ultimately, no, Jesus couldn't do anything about it after it was given to someone else. Legally, I suppose the snake was Andrew's at this point. Was it morally and ethically wrong for him to try and sell it? Yes, this definitely makes someone out to be a grimy and desperate individual.

I for one am glad that he took the snake back and got away with it, because this guy clearly didn't didn't deserve the gesture.
 
Harold, the agreement was agreed upon the moment I gave the snake to Andrew. I told that if he didn't want her anymore or couldn't keep her for ANY reason, to give her back to me. If you read the texts you will see where I continually reference to that agreement and Andrew acknowledges it.
 
ERnurse said:
And what about the guy that posted his for $100 why isn't he being harassed over it. In fact Jesus even offered to help him ship it out. I can't figure that one out.
Click to expand...

If you would have seen or read that ad, he was selling a het amel normal that I had traded to him for some rats :thumbsup:
 
Tigger the Tiger said:
Harold, the agreement was agreed upon the moment I gave the snake to Andrew. I told that if he didn't want her anymore or couldn't keep her for ANY reason, to give her back to me. If you read the texts you will see where I continually reference to that agreement and Andrew acknowledges it.
Click to expand...

I looked at the texts, but they didn't clearly indicate when you put that into play (or I just missed it). Remember, all most of us know of this story is what has been posted...we don't know the timeline. How long had Andrew had the snake when you noticed that he was selling it?


Andrew - do you agree that Jesus stated that right from the start?
 
If this hadn't been the case, why would Andrew be incessantly apologizing both before we even left the reptile show and afterward via texts? I would assume he will try to save face here for anything that isn't provable via screenshots.
 
Hello Everyone,
I do not like to post things on the BOI or get involved in ANY disputes. I have enough of my own problems, much less to even think about others problems.I just thought I would post the FACTS about the ''blonde paradox tiger'' that has been such a hot topic for the last several days. Here are the facts about this animal:
1.) When I purchased this animal from Clark Inc. I was told it was a ''BLONDE PARADOX TIGER'' and the only one on this planet earth
2.) I paid a pretty penny in CASH for this BLONDE PARADOX TIGER
3.) when purchased, I was told how BLONDE this animal is and he was wandering if the white head would change like all the other clark blondes do.
4.) The word ''het'' or even being a poss het was NEVER mentioned
5.) I paid for a BLONDE PARADOX TIGER
6.) I have ORIGINAL paperwork from Clark. Inc. that states "blond paradox tiger'', not het or possible or anything of that nature
7.) ANYONE who needs to see the ORIGINAL PAPERWORK can call me and I will be happy to fax,email,etc..
8.) I have ensured Mr. Blackman that if he is at all dissatisfied or confused with the animals genetics, I will gladly refund his money in entirety.
9.) I talked with Bob Clark personally and he to this day calls it a ''blonde''
10.) After all this confusion, I called Bob and expressed Mr. Blackman's concern about the genetics of this animal. Bob told me to have Mr. Blackman call him personally to answer any questions he may have.
11.) Mr. Blackman called me several days later and told me that he left several messages and Bob will not return his calls.
12.) I waited a couple of days and placed a call to Bob myself. He was not in and I talked with Jeff Byers who is manager at Clark Inc. I told him what was going on and he stated to me that he thought it was a blonde but he nor Bob can guarentee the genetics being a ''paradox''. (but the paperwork says BLONDE)
13.) These uncertain statements were only brought up after the genetics of the animal were questioned and the snake had a new owner. I was ALWAYS TOLD IT WAS A BLOND
14.) In some instances people, not in so many words are acting as if I tried to dupe them by misrepresenting this beautiful animal. I told them I go by what was told to me and what is stated on the ORIGINAL paperwork.
15.) If they further have questions, dont buy it simple as that. Need be call Mr. Clark who produced this animal and declared it a blonde, not me, current seller, or future seller. (I go by the paperwork and what I was told I was paying for, in addition prior to me buying the blond paradox I was assured by Clark Inc. that what they put down on original paperwork is what I am getting/paying for)
16.) The ONLY reason I sold this blonde paradox tiger is a month prior I sold my Blonde female and my Blonde Tiger female that were also purchased from Clark. Inc. I had an issue in my personal life and needed funds quickly. I wanted to sell these 3 animals as a trio. I sold the 2 females to a nice man out in Nevada. He wanted the blonde paradox but said his budget simply could not allow it at that time. Thats why this male went on the market.


So this poor animal has been bashed up just for laying there and sitting pretty.... If this animal is returned to me by Mr. Blackman, I will give him a FULL refund. I also plan to return this original animal back to Clark. Inc. until it is deemed an accurate title.

This is the only post I am going to post....If ANYONE has any questions, concerns, or whatever call me on my business line @ 804-641-0247

I love you all...

Matthew Miller Tuesday 5/24/11 @ 19:16
 
hhmoore said:
I looked at the texts, but they didn't clearly indicate when you put that into play (or I just missed it). Remember, all most of us know of this story is what has been posted...we don't know the timeline. How long had Andrew had the snake when you noticed that he was selling it?


Andrew - do you agree that Jesus stated that right from the start?
Click to expand...

I gave that snake to Andrew around April 12-13th....So he didn't even have the snake 2 weeks
 
well, morals and ethics are up to each person to decide.

keep in mind, i never made any reference to the giving of that snake being equal to cost of driving down there. my point was, it was given to him, you dont have to be a neurosurgeon to assume, probably for the time and ability to drive down there and give him that other snake. even though it was originally gonna be a trade deal, the fact is, the snake was given to him. whether its a gift or paid for or a trade, its his snake to do what he wants with it. it was just stated that (at least some of the reason) he asked him to keep the snake for "nothing" is that he didnt have cage space to get snakes in trade.
seems to me, he should have asked andrew for either payment for the snake or the deal was off. once an product or good is obtained, again either through gift, purchasing, trading, etc, its his, no if, ands or buts about it.

i agree, its very cut and dry
 
Im not sure how long I had the snake. If he says 2 weeks then it's 2 weeks. Rob I live in central PA, NOT NJ. It's about a 4hr drive. I will say that at the time of the transaction between Jesus and I there was NO mention of not to sell the animal. In fact he told me that if I was ever to sell it in the future he could verify the genetics. Also at that time we were trading animals...remember I was going to send you a pair of adult selayars. So at that time the snake in question would have no doubt been totally mine. Not gift at that point. Then while I was driving home is when I received the phone call from him that I could just keep the snake because he didn't have room. That phone call was brief there was absolutely no mention of anything like do not sell the animal, give it back if you don't want it. Mr Blackman did not begin to say that until he saw it posted for $350. He then called me and said if I didn't want it to send it back. About a day later he offered me a male instead if I didn't want the female. If he was being SO protective of his project then why give me something that I could feed like crazy and breed to my buddy's proven amel the following year and quite possibly produce the first amel suntiger...before him. I had absolutely no intentions of giving it back and never said or alluded that I would. All I said I would do was pull the ad which I did. Several days later was the Hamburg show and I figured I would sell it there and what he didn't know wouldn't hurt him. It was a female and would not breed for a few years not messing with his beloved project. Yes I did apologize to Jesus on the way home from the show simply because I plan on attending that show in the future and need no problems there as he demonstrated that he was quite capable of causing. No I am not a coward I just don't resort to violent, criminal activity because that's not what I'm about. Besides im about 8 inches taller and outweigh this guy by about 100lbs.
 
Not surprisingly, we got two different answers...
No offense to Jesus; but my read on the situation before asking the question was that the no sale clause came in when he saw Andrew advertising it - and that is Andrew's claim.

I do think selling a snake that was accepted as a gift just 2 weeks before is a pretty crappy move, even if there were extenuating circumstances & it was a matter of convenience, though. I can certainly understand Jesus being upset....but stealing it back? Can anybody really argue that that was an reasonable choice (except Robert, of course - he thinks its great that Jesus GOT AWAY WITH IT....doesn't that phrase imply that he did something wrong?)
 
I find this thread has gotten bizarre rather quickly, especially being that the subject of the thread started it himself. Now that a rough time line of events has been put together, I've seen something that has bothered me a bit. I think Andrew, that regardless of what terms were set(or not) regarding your ownership of the retic Jesus gave you, that turning around and selling it within 2 weeks of receiving it is questionable. I only bring this up because you yourself had noted that the snake had a head wobble/shake that was definitely not normal.
 
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