Bad Guy John Michael Martino aka John Michael Reptile. New York Long Island.

[nickolasanastasiou]

Post #12 was not typed for fun. You have through the end of the day to address it adequately.

 

[Mistyck]

Like i said, I am disappointed with his business practices post purchase.
(1) John Martino said "you are badgering me for paperwork" what do you mean badgering? I told you that I want to breed Burmese in future, i even told you i love to working on conservation so i don't want to get in any trouble.I was ASKING in a politely way not BADGERING, and i explained to you why i need to get a certificate from you. (you guys can look over the pictures, it's on post #1)

(2) After i explained what i am concerned , you text me back : okay i will get you a sign letter with a hatch date and i will send you pics of the parents? Fair enough? when would you like to meet?
I feel like he start to give me attitude ( English is not my first language, maybe you guys don't feel that way. i do)

(3)So i told him i have to ask my friend to give me a ride (He knows i don;t have a car),and i asked him can you please sign me the letter before getting new Burmese?
2 minutes later he sent me 2 pictures and wrote hatched by me 11/21/2016.
I was like ... what are you doing? I told you I need your address, name and signature and you said okay you are going to do that... but now you just send me a pic with a sentence? are you misunderstood something?
I start to think.... is that a CBB Burmese.....?

(4)One day later, i made a certificate, ask for his email and signature, but he didn't reply.
I start to worry about my tortoise is from the wild, like i said i want to work on conservation and i REALLY DON'T WANT TO TAKE ANY ANIMALS FROM THE WILD. so i am kinda worry and say "Maybe the tortoise is not captive breed right?"
John Martino finally text me back, and say I'm done with you.... and he refused to sign, and later, we start to argue.

I think you guys misunderstand something, I am not asking for a Certificate after purchase.
I am asking for certificate before a new purchase, and he promised to sign one for me. but he didn't. and saying i am a crazy stalker ...

You purchased the animal, then asked for documentation on that animal AFTER the purchase. It doesn't matter if you were going to buy an additional animal from him, you wanted documentation on the one you already purchased from him. At that point with the way you were acting, Per your own evidence, I wouldn't want to deal with you any longer either.

The paperwork you are demanding will not prove anything if you chose to do anything with the animal later, other than to give YOU peace of mind. The CITES you're wanting don't apply to the animal. So you're bugging your seller *As an afterthought, since you were already happy with the transaction and how it happened* for no reason.

You can be unhappy POST-PURCHASE, but you went through with the purchase, and waited a month to ask for such documentation that the seller did NOT have to provide you with in the first place. Then when he didn't comply in your time frame you turned into a nightmare. So yes, your unhappiness is all on you and this thread you started shows how unreasonable YOU have been.

If you wanted all the paperwork that you say you "need" then you should have asked about it BEFORE purchase, not POST purchase. You can't gripe about the way things happened when YOU changed the way you wanted them AFTER the transaction. It doesn't work that way. That's like buying a house AS-IS, and after the purchase telling the bank that the house isn't the way you wanted it, and you want them to fix things before you make a payment. It just doesn't work that way in life!

 

[deadheadvet]

What came to mind as I started reading this thread was UGH!
John has an excellent reputation. The buyer is asking for a completely unreasonable demand in the form of a document (health certificate). The seller can only report that the animal is healthy. Only a Veterinarian can write a legal document as a certificate of health. If the buyer was purchasing from me, I would decline to write the certificate because it is not reasonable and I am legally allowed to write the certificate. As far as CITES goes, that is the buyer's responsibility to know the laws. Studbook information is a reasonable request. If available, it should be provided. Unfortunately, the Burmese Star Studbook is lacking and incomplete. It does not provide the information most buyers want. IMO, the buyer is beyond difficult and I would stop responding to him. Bottom line is, is the animal healthy?, appears to be. End of discussion. If the buyer is so intent on the certificate, go to a reptile vet, get an exam to prove its health and receive the certificate is he is so intent on getting.

 

[shel.c]

nope, just like like buying a something that made in Japan, after the purchase i ask the seller "can you sign a certificate prove that the thing is made in Japan, I will need it in the future."

Of course he can refuse my request, but he did not give me a reasonable explanation, suddenly say that "I am done with you" and he deleted the contact information in his website and removed the Burmese Star Tortoise selling thread.

He didn't comply in my time frame but i didn't give him any attitude. He gets mad because I question him is that a true CBB Burmese. Because he seems like want to avoid the responsibility.

 

[shel.c]

AGAIN, I NEVER ASK HIM FOR HEALTH CERTIFICATE!
I told John can i bring the Burmese to the vet for BODY check right after purchase. If there is any SERIOUS health issues like bone disease, can we share the medicine bill??

 

[Mistyck]

nope, just like like buying a something that made in Japan, after the purchase i ask the seller "can you sign a certificate prove that the thing is made in Japan, I will need it in the future."

YEP! That's why you ask BEFORE purchase. Not AFTER! Even when you're importing from Japan/China/overseas, you must ask for documentation BEFORE you purchase, or else they cannot import it.

*Keep in mind, I have never purchased animals from overseas, but any products that we have purchased from overseas must have documentation attached and you must ask for that BEFORE purchase, if not then that's on you and you might not get your product. Which would be YOUR fault, not the sellers.*

Of course he can refuse my request, but he did not give me a reasonable explanation, suddenly say that "I am done with you" and he deleted the contact information in his website and removed the Burmese Star Tortoise selling thread.

He doesn't have to give you a reasonable explanation. You asked him for something that he didn't have to provide, that in itself is enough explanation as to why he doesn't have to comply.

It's his website, and his ad, he can do as he pleases, and does NOT need your approval to do so. Don't like it, go purchase somewhere else.

He didn't comply in my time frame but i didn't give him any attitude. He gets mad because I question him is that a true CBB Burmese. Because he seems like want to avoid the responsibility.

It doesn't matter if you gave him attitude or not. You're being unreasonable. He has every right to act and feel the way he does because of YOUR actions. There is no responsibility he's avoiding. He's avoiding you and your irrational thinking of what HE has to comply to.

Also, you might want to listen the mod that has requested something from you 2 different times now. Or else you will be the one who isn't complying and in deep water. Something tells me you're going think that the mod is being unreasonable too though...

 

[shel.c]

he said that is a TSF CBB Burmese.
I am not asking for HEALTH GUARANTEE OR FEMALE GUARANTEE, cause I know that is UNREASONABLE. I just want him to prove that the burmese is breed by him with a signature.
the reason that he refuse to sign it because he said my English improve a lot overnight! Is he thinking that i am working for government? if so, so what? you said the burmese is not imported.
please look at the pics I uploaded on post#2

 

[deadheadvet]

Let's try it this way:
Burmese Star Tortoise, Geochelone platynota is a CITES 1 species. That means they can not be transported outside the country of origin and can not be transported outside the country the Tortoise resides in. That means no Burmese Star can leave Myanmar, and in this case can not leave the United States. That means if the breeder states that it was captive bred, then it is. Just to clarify more, if we were discussing say Pancake Tortoises, I might question if it is captive bred because they are still being imported from the wild. You must take this seller at his word that it is captive bred and stop asking for a document you are not entitled to. I also breed Burmese Stars. If you were to contact me on availability, I would ignore you. Look at the entirety of this thread and see how wrong you are. I have not seen a single response taking your side.

 

[Mistyck]

AGAIN, I NEVER ASK HIM FOR HEALTH CERTIFICATE!
I told John can i bring the Burmese to the vet for BODY check right after purchase. If there is any SERIOUS health issues like bone disease, can we share the medicine bill??

The seller addressed that issue:

The first thing you want to address is bringing her to a vet. I said you could bring her to a vet. After you told me you had multiple other tortoises i declined to offer any conditions on her. What you do with her, who you put her with, or how you care for her after i sell her to you is out of my control. I then agreed to drive 45 minutes out of my way to meet with you so you could handle her and give her a good going over in person. You accepted, were happy, and went on your way. Good transaction i thought?

If you didn't like the way he handled it when you asked him about it the first time, then you shouldn't have went through with the transaction. You said you were happy, seller said you were happy, but now you're unhappy? Something's fishy, and it's you.

Now almost a month later you are badgering me for paperwork. You have contacted me numerous times in less than 24 hrs demanding paperwork that is nether necessary, nor the norm in the industry. All this time i am dealing with a loss and you don't stop. I said i would send it you. Not only wasn't that good enough, but you decided to start sending me certificates and links and long texts asking for something i said i would send. And yes, when someone starts sending me links to my website with my address and pressuring me non stop i start to get a little apprehensive. Yes, i deleted my info, i felt you were becoming a stalker and were acting shady. When we first met you were a nice guy who then seemed to go to a very pushy guy to the point of sending me pdf files demanding I docusign them? At this point you were really making me uneasy, i felt something was up and you were looking to do something illegal with the tortoise? Maybe try and ship it out of the country? Idk you kept asking about cities? But having your girlfriend message me in addition to screen shotting my location doesn't really speak to not being shady so i feel my suspicions were correct. And again all this was going on as i was dealing with a LOSS OF A FRIEND! Your response to that? Accusing me of being a poacher and a smuggler! So you my friend can go ahead and enjoy your CBB Burmese Star tortoise as I'm done dealing with you. And I would precaution anyone else from dealing with you as you are a rude, offensive, irrational person. Good day sir!

Because the seller feels uneasy with you and the way YOU are acting, and doesn't want to deal with you any longer, you are now calling him a bad guy. Seems to me you are being irrational, demanding and to the point where I don't know if anyone would want to deal with you and your actions. *Especially a MONTH after the transaction took place.* If this had all happened within a couple days of the transaction then it might seem a bit reasonable, but you waited almost a month to start this, yet you want to act indignant about the way you're being treated?

he said that is a TSF CBB Burmese.
I am not asking for HEALTH GUARANTEE OR FEMALE GUARANTEE, cause I know that is UNREASONABLE. I just want him to prove that the burmese is breed by him with a signature.
the reason that he refuse to sign it because he said my English improve a lot overnight! Is he thinking that i am working for government? if so, so what? you said the burmese is not imported.
please look at the pics I uploaded on post#2

You should have asked for that BEFORE purchase! Not a MONTH after!!!! What is so hard about that concept?

He's thinking that you're being an unreasonable, irrational human being! Has nothing to do with some stupid government conspiracy or whatever other dumb idiocy you want to bring into this. It solely lies on the fact that you are being an unreasonable human being in your demands a month after the transaction took place.

Also, please let me remind you that the more you answer everyone else and their posts without addressing the moderator, the more you're going to get your rear in trouble. But let me guess, that will be the moderator's fault as well.

 

[zovick]

Shel.c:

I have been a keeper and breeder of CITES I tortoises since 1965 and I can emphatically state that you need not worry about moving your personally owned tortoise(s) to FL or anywhere else within the US. It is a completely legal thing to do and I have done so a number of times during my life.

As Nick mentioned, the species is NOT on the US ESA list, so no CBW Permit is needed to buy and sell them within the US until that happens, if it ever does, which is not likely IMHO.

Furthermore, as Nick hinted in his post, if the species ever DOES get listed on our ESA, the animal you have will be grandfathered (excluded from the need for a permit) since you owned it prior to its being listed.

I think you are totally fine with the pictures of the parents and the statement that John Martino bred the animal now in your possession which John already supplied to you.

Additionally, I will say that I have hatched and sold baby Radiated Tortoises, Burmese Stars, Indian Stars, and Sri Lankan Stars numbering well into the hundreds and have never been asked for a certificate such as you are requesting from John Martino.

Exactly how many Star Tortoise breeders have provided you with these certificates which you erroneously think are the norm in the tortoise world? I am guessing that the number is EXTREMELY LOW.

Comparing the purchase of a baby tortoise to that of a Ball Python (another species with which I have a good deal of experience) is like comparing apples and oranges. The reason extensive documentation is needed for Ball Pythons is to prove they actually possess the hidden genes for which they are being advertised and sold.

Burmese Stars have no hidden genes which need to be documented, unlike a Ball Python which could possess genes for any number of traits which are not expressed phenotypically (visible when you see the animal). It's an entirely different thing and done for a viable reason in the Ball Python market.

 

[Greg Valente]

Just seeing this post. I know John for many many years. And would like you to know that he is a stand up guy and he has always had top notch stuff. And I would recommend him if you are looking to buy something that he is selling

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Soon after the creation of this thread, the OP created a second account (not recommended; it is a violation of the rules) of thetortoiseshel with a name field of Sheldon Choy. That account was folded into the original. This bit of information may be relevant to member interests (especially due to the timing).

 

[morbidangel]

I don't see what the problem is. All the OP wants is something stating that the seller bread the animal his self, for his own records. Should the OP have asked for it up front, Yes he probably should have.

But really how hard is it to type up something stating that so and so bread the animal and its hatch date was this day and sign it. Although I do remember reading somewhere that the seller did provide the information already, just not on a certificate.

But OP if you want something like that after the fact you need to be reasonable and allow the seller some time to type something up. Not everyone can just drop what they are doing and get in front of a computer and make something up. There may have been something on the certificate that you created that the seller did not like, there for he did not want to sign.

 

[Helenthereef]

I think the OP explained himself coherently and reasonably in post #10.

He requested something he thought was needed, but maybe his request was seen as unreasonable because of his english and the unfortunate timing (the wake), making the seller feel pressured and suspicious.

The reason for his request has been explained, and it has also been explained that what he asked for us not the industry norm, and is unnecessary.

IMO job done, BOI served its function well, everyone should be happy.

 

[Aimee_Manson]

I do not believe that John Martino did anything wrong, and he was correct in feeling suspicious. The certificate that the OP sent could have been used to incriminate him if the OP were to do anything illegal. I totally get that, but no, I don't think the OP would do that, just pointing it out in John's point of view, especially when the OP kept mentioning CITES. Also, I would like to send my condolences, John, and my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Now, for a little compromise/suggestion for the OP: If you ever buy a tortoise again, you could reformat the certificate. You could do a Bill of Sale rather than a CBB certificate. On the Bill of Sale, it could clearly show the transfer of a CBB tortoise from the seller to the buyer (you). That way, it doesn't appear that the seller is still in ownership of said tortoise, all can be at ease, and it does state CBB on the Bill of Sale somewhere. It can serve as proof of CBB, but more importantly proof of where you bought the tortoise from in case you were to produce any offspring from it in the future. Now, this does not mean that John owes you anything, because he doesn't. But I do understand where the miscommunication was and that you were not intending to be malicious.

Finally, my suggestion about a Bill of Sale does not mean that breeders owe you any type of paperwork. If it is extremely important to you, find another breeder to work with. I do think that asking a for a Bill of Sale rather than a CBB certificate seems a little more reasonable. Still, it isn't mandatory.