Bad Guy Jon Boone (Bad business agreement)

[Deborah Stewart]

Maybe there is something to learned here.

Payment plans are not easy and they can go south very quick for the seller and the buyer.

I don't really like doing them but I do because I understand the need for my customers to work on a budget but what I have learned also is that the longer the payment plan the more like it will fall through.

A year is way to long for any type of plan so much can happen on either end in one year.

After having issues with customers not coming through I have made everything very clear in my TOS and everything is put in writing as well and basically it boils down to the fact that payment plans should not be entered lightly.

At this point you just need to write this as a loss and take this as a lesson learned.

 

[reptilebaby]

And it is just plain WRONG to try and get a lower price on an animal, which the breeder has put money, and time into feeding, cleaning, heating and caring for. If the BREEDER chooses to give a deal WITHOUT being asked (That is extremely rude, and I consider it to be lowballing) then great. But it IS the BREEDER'S choice, not the buyer's. If you want a lower price, look for a breeder who is OFFERING a lower price.
I can say that when I start breeding my own snakes I will NOT lower a price because someone asks me to. I bred dogs for a while and when people threw a fit about pricing, I just said no and quit answering their e-mails. Sometimes I knew the person and I OFFERED a lower price-but ONLY because I WANTED to and NOT because I was asked to. If I had been asked for a lower price I would have just said NO. See, either you can get a quality animal from me of you can get a cheap animal somewhere else that might not be healthy. (Using this as an example, on how most breeders would probably feel on having someone try to get a better deal)

And, to me, losing $100 would be too much. But that's why you make sure you pay off your debt as quick as you can. When I send payments I say hey, X amount will be on it's way on this date, then ON that date I send and say X amount is on it's way right now, please let me know when it arrives. That is what needs to be done, none of this waiting till they get back to you. Keep your word if you want people to do business with you.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I think Mr. Boone is a trooper. The first post in this thread was absolutely suffocating and Jon remained as patient as humanly possible (imho) with a VERY difficult customer. I think this thread did him justice. J.B., good guy!

 

[Chris633]

Normally I just lurk this forum, but I found I couldn't this time.

I think that the seller's only crime in this case is being too nice. And I can't believe I just had to type that statement. He probably should have been a little bit more clear about his TOS, especially once he learned you were not going to pay in full. He gave you the benefit of the doubt, probably because you did lay down $900. Because he probably thought, what I would've thought, that who would be careless enough not to follow through once they lay down that kind of money.

At the end of the day, I believe that you abused his kindness. Dragging out a payment plan as long as you did completely lacked courtesy. Was the timeframe for payments spelled out? No. But this is where I believe courtesy comes into play. How long do you make a person wait before honoring your debt? Especially, when it involves animals that another person is now caring for at the cost of their time, money and future breeding plans. A $900 deposit does not oblige a breeder to wait almost a year for payment. Could the breeder have kept on e-mailing you about payments and eventually set a deadline? Sure. But a responsible adult who pays his debts in a timely fashion shouldn't require that. Once again we come back to the issue of courtesy. All of this time, the breeder has been waiting for you. Waiting for you to pay, so that he can ship. So an unreasonable amount of time passes and then he no longer wants to keep to the original deal. How can you be surprised?

I think the $900 deposit that you put down bought you more patience and consideration than a $100 deposit may have. That is likely why he was still willing to work with you and come up with some sort of solution once he became fed up with your lack of courtesy. He was well within his rights to just keep your deposit as nonrefundable. However, he sought to find an alternative solution with you. You should explore those alternatives and just be glad that you're getting something instead of nothing.

And you are correct, life does sometimes happen. However, as the person carrying the debt, you are then the one obligated to communicate your difficulties and try work out some type of solution. It is then up to the seller, to decide how he wishes to proceed with you. So you can complain about the seller's lack of communication as much as you like, however, you seem to be just as guilty.

So in sum, Mr. Boone, I think you handled yourself well in this situation but you may want to think about shoring up your TOS to prevent things like this in the future. Chaz, I would think about letting go of this whole $900-deposit-affords-me-extra-benefits issue and instead consider how your behavior contributed to the current situation. I really do believe that you took advantage of Mr. Boone's kindness in taking an "open ended" approach to paying your debt.

 

[Corey Woods]

1) I'd keep the money after 4 months not after a year. I'd keep it all and not offer anything in return.

2) I wouldn't respond to phone calls or emails either. Why should I? Breeders don't like to deal with dead beat customers......

Corey Woods

 

[Chris Kennard]

1) I'd keep the money after 4 months not after a year. I'd keep it all and not offer anything in return.

2) I wouldn't respond to phone calls or emails either. Why should I? Breeders don't like to deal with dead beat customers......

Corey Woods

IF you are are a breeder, dealer, whatever, that was a poor choice of words to be "advertising" here, of all places. And the use of the word "deadbeat" certainly does not apply here. That would imply that Chaz got something for nothing. Perhaps you should read Mr. Boone's responses to Chaz and take notes.

 

[deborahbroadus]

IF you are are a breeder, dealer, whatever, that was a poor choice of words to be "advertising" here, of all places. And the use of the word "deadbeat" certainly does not apply here. That would imply that Chaz got something for nothing. Perhaps you should read Mr. Boone's responses to Chaz and take notes.

I believe Mr. Woods was trying to show the buyer that it could have been worse. What he said is norm for a TOS, as most sellers/breeders DO have a time frame for "layaways."

I would deal with Mr. Woods knowing that I have a clear TOS to follow. In fact, I have come to believe that all this "wishy-washy" behavior in buyers and breeders is detrimental to the breeding community and gives buyers the wrong impression that they can ask for their money back whenever they wish even if they have to exaggerate or outright lie to get their money back.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I believe Mr. Woods was trying to show the buyer that it could have been worse. What he said is norm for a TOS, as most sellers/breeders DO have a time frame for "layaways."

I would deal with Mr. Woods knowing that I have a clear TOS to follow. In fact, I have come to believe that all this "wishy-washy" behavior in buyers and breeders is detrimental to the breeding community and gives buyers the wrong impression that they can ask for their money back whenever they wish even if they have to exaggerate or outright lie to get their money back.

Sorry if I misinterpreted "Mr. Wood's" post as abrasive (deadbeat comment?) and misinterpreted his clear cut position, on how he would handle the situation with total commmunication shutdown, as "trying to show" the buyer something as if he were teaching a student the proper way to handle things. My bad. And please don't confuse me for someone who condones Chaz' actions. I don't. After reading these posts, I would certainly do business with Mr. Boone. Not so sure about Mr. Woods. But that's just me.

 

[Lucille]

First I want to know if you think him or I am wrong in the situation, also what would you do if you were in my predicament.

That's not what you wanted at all.

I had to take a break from this because I was getting frustrated with everyone's comments. .

That's because we gave you what you asked for, see above, but it wasn't what you wanted. You wanted exclusively, to be told that you were 100% in the right. You were dismissive and rude to those who told you what they thought, but not what you wanted to hear:

Are you all really that blind?

This will be my final comment to all of this.

I think that is a good call.

 

[Geitje]

In keeping geckos now for 31 years, on average I complete around 160 transactions every year and this one is really befuddling. I’ve never endured the voluminous communication, the extent of time, and inexplicable lack of interest in completing a deal (particularly with 50% down) – as I have in this case.

Over the last 10.5 months, I’ve re-read our emails many times as I’ve pondered why this deal has went the way it has. The problems with this deal are simple. Chaz entered into a purchase agreement, agreed to make a deposit and agreed to finalize the deal when I returned from a trip to Africa in late January 2011. I never received final payment. He never contacted me with payment plans/amendments. He failed to complete the deal. I think it should be clear by the overall tenure of our deal that any requests from me of “Chaz, please send payment in the next 24 hours, or lose your deposit” would have led to something more profoundly absurd than the posting of this to this forum. I should not need to help remind him of his obligations to finalize the deal, any more so than for me to remind him “feed your geckos they might be hungry”.

Second chance: He mentioned that he would be paying the balance in mid-June. He did not and with no communication between the end of May and mid-June as to why not.

Chaz did not complete the terms of service he agreed to twice, which to some extent was explicitly created himself (my willingness to try and help the guy finish this deal).

Deposit of 50% was created due to the rarity of the species, my immediate need for the sale at that time (not a year later), and an already heavily discounted overall purchase price.
Detailing TOS: the varied conditions, tolerances (friends, colleagues, museums, zoos, etc.) and other variables prevent me from setting a single standard that can be blanketed for the collective community, particularly when weighed against the number of transactions I complete yearly. Solution – he could have paid under the two previous deadlines that were agreed to.

Geckos do not live forever, nor do they have indefinite reproductive longevity. These rare geckos missed a breeding season that I accommodate by offering them during their natural austral summer (= our winter: November – March 2011). Chaz could have taken liberty and responsibility of finalizing the purchase during that season and utilized the animals for a breeding season under his own care. Respectfully, I held the animals from doing so and therefore lost far more than $900, and so did Chaz by not breeding them either.

In the end, I offered to extend a % of credit towards my current surplus (not surplus as of October 2010) which is not congruent with typical industry standards that are followed with live animals - that do not live forever. It’s not worthwhile for me to spend more hours sifting through a preposterous amount of emails to search for obtuse reasons for doing anything more than what I’ve offered to Chaz. I’ve over-extended in a hyper-extended circumstance. Instead, he asked for his money back.

The nuts and bolts are he failed to complete the deal under the original terms of service, and then failed a second time. It’s been approximately 324 days since his original deposit and the geckos he originally try to purchase have lost faith after setting around with their bags packed for the last year………….only to feel abandoned as well.

Jon Boone

 

[Bobby Douglass]

Thanks for giving your side of this Jon. I think you were more than patient with him and I don't think anyone but the "buyer" sees you as a bad guy in this.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Hey Jon

The items this person was attempting to purchase in my estimation was way over his head. These geckos (as you mentioned) with taylori as an example, are rare geckos for those collectors who know what they are doing and even under those circumstances including the barking geckos are not for beginners..
When this comes down to care sheets, etc. I would have stopped the transaction immediately as the eventual outcome is what has transpired from an inexperienced buyer, who not only was undercapitalized from the getgo but would have been better off in less expensive geckos that he could have paid for in full at the time of purchase !

Jon, your 100% correct with your assessment on the breeding loss, and all the other non sense inconveniences that you kindly provided to this person.

Its a good learning lesson for anyone to keep in mind that tiime payments are fine, but they do have there limitations, and Jon was more than kind in accommodating this person, but there are limits. JERRY

 

[Clay Davenport]

I think if there's anything that everyone should take away from this thread is the need to have a specific set of terms laid out from the start when dealing with payment plans. Mine are on my website and I require that anyone wanting to do a payment plan read and agree to the terms first.

In this case Jon handled the situation well, but it would have been easier on him if he had a stated policy he could have fallen back on.
Payment plans can be very good for helping customers get animals they might not be able to afford right then, but would likely be sold before they saved it up, and they also help sellers move higher end animals. They are also open doors for headache and aggravation if there's no terms set in advance for the time frame and the penalty for default.

It's better to have a stricter set of terms in place that you can be flexible with at your discretion than to have few or no terms and end up in a situation that's difficult to work out amicably without hard feelings.

 

[ballpython584]

I have purchased four snakes on payment plans. The time frames where set up prior to agreeing to the transaction. On all of these payment plans I paid the balances off way ahead of the deadline.

My point.......I did not wait to hear from the seller as to whether or not is was ok to send final payment! I sent payment ( paypal ) and sent a full message indicating what the payment was for. I then sent an email indicating the payment has been made and requested contact to set up a shipping date.

Bottom line with payment plans.......

The seller is going out of their way to help a buyer purchase an animal. IMO it is totally on the buyer to keep in touch with the seller and to fulfill their obligation or suffer the consequences!

The OP should be very thankful to have an opportunity to still use the deposit for other animals.

Larry Gasiewski

 

[reptilebaby]

I also have done many payment plans. They've always worked for me. I did have many issues with one, but the lady was extremely patient with me. You just have to communicate.

 

[Kristi23]

And it is just plain WRONG to try and get a lower price on an animal, which the breeder has put money, and time into feeding, cleaning, heating and caring for. If the BREEDER chooses to give a deal WITHOUT being asked (That is extremely rude, and I consider it to be lowballing) then great. But it IS the BREEDER'S choice, not the buyer's. If you want a lower price, look for a breeder who is OFFERING a lower price.
I can say that when I start breeding my own snakes I will NOT lower a price because someone asks me to. I bred dogs for a while and when people threw a fit about pricing, I just said no and quit answering their e-mails. Sometimes I knew the person and I OFFERED a lower price-but ONLY because I WANTED to and NOT because I was asked to. If I had been asked for a lower price I would have just said NO. See, either you can get a quality animal from me of you can get a cheap animal somewhere else that might not be healthy. (Using this as an example, on how most breeders would probably feel on having someone try to get a better deal)

And, to me, losing $100 would be too much. But that's why you make sure you pay off your debt as quick as you can. When I send payments I say hey, X amount will be on it's way on this date, then ON that date I send and say X amount is on it's way right now, please let me know when it arrives. That is what needs to be done, none of this waiting till they get back to you. Keep your word if you want people to do business with you.

From my experience, most people make offers or ask for lower prices, especially at shows but also online. It's up to the seller to say yes or no. In four years, I've only had a handful of people pay the asking price. JMO I don't find any problem with offers unless the are ridiculously low.

I do agree about the payments. Any amount of money is a big deal to me. I couldn't stand the idea of losing even a $100 deposit. I've done many payment plans on higher price purchases, but I've always paid them off early. They are great as long as a person doesn't abuse them and the seller sets specific requirements.

 

[reptilebaby]

I haven't really had experience selling reptiles. I have always looked on asking for a better deal on an animal as trying to get an already decent price for an even better price. And ripping off the seller. I have honestly never have done that, I feel that you know what the seller is asking for, once you see the ad. Sure you can shop around, for a better price if you want, but I've always considered it to be a moral issue, asking right out for a better price. I am sure some people would be ok with it.....I would be offended if I was selling an animal and someone said "You're asking too much, but I can give you this for it." That actually happened several times to me.

 

[hhmoore]

Let's not get too sidetracked with this discussion - it's a great topic, but not applicable to this BOI thread. General Business Discussions seems like a good place

 

[reptilebaby]

Yup, sorry!

 

[tenchu]

I'v been trying to follow this thread, reading bits and pieces of it through out my vacation. I happen to just met john at a show not to long ago. Although I have not had a transaction with him personally I have inquired about many different species of gecko from him that i was interested but extremely hesitant to get into due to their higher end nature of care since I didn't have experience with them at the time. Jon bounced emails back and forth with me for many months educating me on the animals I inquired about.

I feel that the buyer was In over his head from the very start. I do give him a great amount of credit though for following through with such a large deposit for something he was interested in considering you dont see that to often.

On the other hand the buyer was also to comfortable with dealing with Jon and felt it would be ok to not follow through to complete the deal not once but twice.

IT would of been nice of Jon to shoot him a email saying that he will be terminating the transaction by a specific date to not only complete the deal but make sure he gets his money. Not for the sake of baby sitting but to get paid of course, more so to avoid a bogus situation like this.

I believe Jon has been very patient especially for the amount of things he is involved in. He is a great guy and great source of info and makes geckos that would not normally be available, available for us to keep and enjoy.

The buyer should write to job and work out a new agreement with either a payment plan with a deadline or pay in full by a certain date and cut his losses before they become greater.

then come back and tell us how it went