Bad Guy Josh of OUTBACK REPTILES

[radera5]

The photo shows the head of one animal and the tail of another...I don't think it's enough for the seller to verify that the animal is indeed the one that he sold. If I sold an animal and was told I had misssexed it, I would want to see a photo or video that allowed me to verify that it was my animal and verify the sex before I had it returned. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I don't think that is what was being asked, but I do agree more pictures would be a good thing.

I think what Dan meant was why is any of this being brought up?

"How do we know the seller mis-sexed the snake as stated the op didn't sex the snake, leaving that little gap that just maybe the so called friend who has been breeding for 25 years isn't being honest...
( This reasonable doubt is placed here by the Op who didn't sex an animal after receiving said animal)
Like I stated before even if the person and or company is reputable WHEN EVER RECEIVING AN ANIMAL ALWAYS CHECK THE SEX OF THE ANIMAL ALWAYS!!!
The OP even if new states he has a friend who has been breeding for 25 years... so getting the sex of the animal checked out shouldn't of been a problem...

Problems with the OP'S Claim which would in honesty put Outback Reptile's in the clear to fix or make right the so called "problem"
1. The Op waited longer than the Normal 7 day policy... to report any problems... ( I believe Outback has a 7 day policy been awhile since I made a purchase with them )
2. The so called problem wasn't even noticed until after 2 weeks of the animal being in the Op's care and wasn't even noticed by the Op it was noticed afterwards by a third party ( who should be named since the Op brought that up.... IMO that falls under the no anonymous third party quote policy which is a NO NO )which means the said animal switched hands between a different party. ( I don't know of anyone who offer's there policy's to extend to a third party... )
3. The Op failed to check the sex of said animal to ensure it was indeed a female ( Yes it happens maybe Outback sent out a mis-sexed animal but we will never know because the Op didn't check the sex of said animal )

Three strike's your out.... there's three reason's that give reasonable doubt to the Op's claims... and three reasons that could be used to prove that Outback did no wrong here and the Op and or the third party is trying to pull a fast one...."

Talking about offers being extended to third parties? It's not like the OP SOLD the snake to someone else who found the issue. What if a newbie buys a snake and has a more experienced friend sex a new snake? Since it wasn't the actual buyer that popped or probed the snake it doesn't count? A sex guarantee from a seller is no longer valid, because someone other than the buyer sexed it? LUDACRIS.

I also agree that considering this is a sexing issue, time shouldn't be a big deal. If we are talking years okay...I get that. But a couple of months? Sex isn't something the OP can change. Sex is nothing like an illness. Being mis sexed can NOT be the OP's fault.

The seller should also be QT'ing if he decides to take the animal back regardless.

I also have the feeling that Josh/Ian/Outback, will make this right.

 

[snowgyre]

In all honesty, the photo the OP gave (see below) does not really prove anything to me. The whole snake is not in the photograph. The head and tail in the photograph look like they belong to two completely different snakes. In addition, milksnakes and kingsnakes look very similar, I can't even identify this image to species with that tiny photograph.

I think it would be reasonable of the seller to request better photos to make sure there isn't some mixup at the friend's house. Once an animal leaves the care of the original buyer, the chances for things like this happening increases, especially among snakes that look so gosh darn similar and freely interbreed (the milksnake/kingsnake complex).

I think Josh's request to meet up at the White Plains show was good. That way he could sex the animal himself and provide you with an immediate replacement, sexed with probes or popping right in front of you. I also agree with Radera. This brush fire isn't a disease, it's a simple (potentially) missexed animal. Is it frustrating? Sure. Is it the end of the world? Not with an honest guy like Josh who I'm confident will make good on his end. Mistakes happen. It's not like thayeri are ball pythons where you have to wait 2-3 years to breed them, but again, I would've sexed them myself long before then.

I don't mean to imply any dishonesty on your part, and I certainly don't want to increase the drama here. Please, ask your friend to take a video or take pictures of the entire snake. If your friend has been in the business for 25 years like you state, he HAS to have a probe set on hand. Have him take a series of images... before, during, and after (with the probe lined up against the tail so we can count belly scales). Like I said before, I would be more than happy to temporarily host any images or video for you.

By providing better images, we'll be able to eliminate all doubt that this was a mix up by your friend. Also, if you can upload any photos taken by Josh of the snake you purchased from him, then we can compare both images and be 100% positive that the snake in question is genuinely male.

 

[Lucille]

Sex is nothing like an illness.

Great quote.

I also agree that considering this is a sexing issue, time shouldn't be a big deal.

Perhaps the sooner the better within reason. Since there has been no qt, if illness emerges in one of the collections or in this snake, things might get more complicated.

also have the feeling that Josh/Ian/Outback, will make this right.

I think so too.

 

[radera5]

Great quote.




Perhaps the sooner the better within reason. Since there has been no qt, if illness emerges in one of the collections or in this snake, things might get more complicated.



I think so too.

This was actually something I was thinking about while writing my last post. Things could get bad if the OP ends up sending the snake back for a refund and it is sick.

Thanks for bringing up that thought

For the record, I completely agree that ANY issues are better found sooner rather than later.

 

[radera5]

This was actually something I was thinking about while writing my last post. Things could get bad if the OP ends up sending the snake back for a refund and it is sick.

Thanks for bringing up that thought

For the record, I completely agree that ANY issues are better found sooner rather than later.

I should have added that I am not saying that I think this is the case, just another IF.

 

[Lucille]

An idea.
Josh prepays for the snake to get sent back. Josh sexes it, takes pix. If it is a male, the buyer gets a full refund. If it is a female, shipping back is deducted from the refund.

 

[snowgyre]

Lucille, I think that's a bit complicated. Shipping back gets deducted from the refund if the animal is female? If the animal is female, there would be no refund, and then Paul would have to pay double shipping (shipping to Josh, and shipping back to Paul). Better photographs is by far cheaper and easier. I think the double shipping costs would far exceed the value of the snake at that point. Thayeri don't exactly command top dollar.

 

[DaveyFig]

If it is a female, then the original shipping should be deducted for the refund too.

If it is a male then Josh should cover all the shipping.

The OP should provide the picture/video evidence though. It is a lot easier to make a male look female than a female look male. There is nothing to "pop", and if Josh were to say it came back and was a female, there would be a debate about whether it was legit. One video or picture of one snake showing that it is the snake that Josh sent and is a male would be great.

 

[Lucille]

The buyer wants a refund. To just get this settled, if the snake goes back to the seller and stays there, a refund could be issued and the buyer happy. If the sexing shows it is in fact a female as sold, seller should not have to end up paying shipping back.

I am looking for a full refund

 

[Lucille]

If it is a female, then the original shipping should be deducted for the refund too.

If it is a male then Josh should cover all the shipping.

The OP should provide the picture/video evidence though. It is a lot easier to make a male look female than a female look male. There is nothing to "pop", and if Josh were to say it came back and was a female, there would be a debate about whether it was legit. One video or picture of one snake showing that it is the snake that Josh sent and is a male would be great.

Good point.

 

[deborahbroadus]

A full refund, for a male that they've been breeding? No, I'm not seeing it.

Even if the seller made the mistake in sexing, they have been attempting to breed the snake, correct. The fact that the "breeder" claims 25 years of experience has me looking crosseyed, because if he's had 25 years of experience, he would know to sex before pairing snakes of unknown (new to him) sex.

Would I give a FULL refund on a mis-sexed snake that had been in "attempted" breeding situations (we weren't there)? No. That's the same as letting someone use my snake to make babies and then get their money back because I made an error. I would have only given a full refund if they had noticed the error within my TOS timeframe.

No, the story isn't holding up logically, at least not to me. But, I may have missed some other facts, so if I did, ignore my post.

 

[Fangthane]

In all honesty, the photo the OP gave (see below) does not really prove anything to me. The whole snake is not in the photograph. The head and tail in the photograph look like they belong to two completely different snakes. In addition, milksnakes and kingsnakes look very similar, I can't even identify this image to species with that tiny photograph....
By providing better images, we'll be able to eliminate all doubt that this was a mix up by your friend. Also, if you can upload any photos taken by Josh of the snake you purchased from him, then we can compare both images and be 100% positive that the snake in question is genuinely male.

See, this is where I'm getting lost. I can't read statements like those above, without taking from them that they're inferring one of two things: 1- outright deception on the buyer/friend's part. 2- Blithering idiocy on the friend's part. As if he happened to have two identical pairings going on simultaneously and couldn't differentiate between the pairing with both of his own snakes, and the one involving one of the OP's.

Or are we implying that the provided picture shows something other than a snake with an everted hemipenis? If we're in agreement that it is a hemipenis that's shown, is there something to imply that the snake isn't the one that Josh originally sold him? While I agree that the picture isn't nearly enough to identify a particular snake, is the snake that's pictured consistent with the species that the OP bought from Outback? Maybe my perception of what the norm is, in these situations, is off. But it seems to me that unless there's some reason to actively doubt the buyer, placing more demands for proof of something like improper sexing just seem somewhat over the top.

I see a lot of doubt being cast on the buyer, whether directly or by inference, but as was my point to begin with, I'm just not seeing the context which justifies it. Everyone's lauding the seller for what a Good Guy he is. I don't know him, maybe he really is. However, I don't believe that all his past success should justify sweeping an documented history of occasional poor communication under the rug. Nor do I see anything that implies that the OP is a Bad Guy that's deserving of said doubt. I guess I'm just missing the bus on this one. Carry on.

 

[deborahbroadus]

See, this is where I'm getting lost. I can't read statements like those above, without taking from them that they're inferring one of two things: 1- outright deception on the buyer/friend's part. 2- Blithering idiocy on the friend's part. As if he happened to have two identical pairings going on simultaneously and couldn't differentiate between the pairing with both of his own snakes, and the one involving one of the OP's.

Or are we implying that the provided picture shows something other than a snake with an everted hemipenis? If we're in agreement that it is a hemipenis that's shown, is there something to imply that the snake isn't the one that Josh originally sold him? While I agree that the picture isn't nearly enough to identify a particular snake, is the snake that's pictured consistent with the species that the OP bought from Outback? Maybe my perception of what the norm is, in these situations, is off. But it seems to me that unless there's some reason to actively doubt the buyer, placing more demands for proof of something like improper sexing just seem somewhat over the top.

I see a lot of doubt being cast on the buyer, whether directly or by inference, but as was my point to begin with, I'm just not seeing the context which justifies it. Everyone's lauding the seller for what a Good Guy he is. I don't know him, maybe he really is. However, I don't believe that all his past success should justify sweeping an documented history of occasional poor communication under the rug. Nor do I see anything that implies that the OP is a Bad Guy that's deserving of said doubt. I guess I'm just missing the bus on this one. Carry on.

While I agree with your estimation of the situation. You have to admit that it wouldn't take someone that has been breeding for 25 years, TWO WEEKS to decide to sex the animal? Not logical, not to me...and if it's not logical, it's suspect.

He's due a refund IF the animal is the correct animal, but I disagree that it should be a FULL refund. He's had the animal for too long and I'm quite untrusting.

 

[KORBIN5895]

A full refund, for a male that they've been breeding? No, I'm not seeing it.

Even if the seller made the mistake in sexing, they have been attempting to breed the snake, correct. The fact that the "breeder" claims 25 years of experience has me looking crosseyed, because if he's had 25 years of experience, he would know to sex before pairing snakes of unknown (new to him) sex.

Would I give a FULL refund on a mis-sexed snake that had been in "attempted" breeding situations (we weren't there)? No. That's the same as letting someone use my snake to make babies and then get their money back because I made an error. I would have only given a full refund if they had noticed the error within my TOS timeframe.

No, the story isn't holding up logically, at least not to me. But, I may have missed some other facts, so if I did, ignore my post.

Post ignored.

Would you mind reading the whole thread then responding?

 

[Fangthane]

While I agree with your estimation of the situation. You have to admit that it wouldn't take someone that has been breeding for 25 years, TWO WEEKS to decide to sex the animal? Not logical, not to me...and if it's not logical, it's suspect.

He's due a refund IF the animal is the correct animal, but I disagree that it should be a FULL refund. He's had the animal for too long and I'm quite untrusting.

I don't see it as particularly illogical. His friend bought the snake from an ostensibly reputable dealer who portrayed it as a female. Friend says 'hey I can't get this girl to breed, wanna try?'. Aside from what little could be read into the fact that it didn't breed for the OP, there's no reason to assume it wasn't sexed properly. It's one of those woulda, coulda, shoulda things. Should SOMEONE have tried to sex the snake upon receipt? Probably. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. In and of itself, I don't see how that negates the seller's responsibility to provide what was paid for: a female snake. IF the snake really is a male, I think the OP is due every cent he paid for it. To me, at least, the time involved doesn't change anything. It's not an illness where the amount of elapsed time creates a grey area.

 

[Josh@Outbackreps]

I am waiting to hear from the Owner of the company (Ian) on how he wants to handle the situation, before I make any formal post as it's out of my hands right now due to the time passed on the transaction, but wanted to put a time time on the sexing in question.

The snake was purchased on 3/25/12 and received 3/29/12 and I received a email on June 4th saying it was mis-sexed. This is a time frame that was 2 days shy of 10 weeks.

We were also told he was in with one of the OP males, and not a "friends" male.

While not a reason for the delay in replies, given the situation, and the amount of time elapsed, along with the picture we received (same as in thread) I had to pass the situation to the owner to see how we could handle it, and did not realize he had not replied to the buyer yet. (Its breeding season for our balls and rainbows so he has been tied up the last few weeks, not a excuse but a reason for the delay). I spoke with him today, and we are working on a way to verify the animal (and sex) to get the situation resolved as soon as possible.

I will let the OP know what we decide is the best solution as soon as I hear from the owner.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I don't see it as particularly illogical. His friend bought the snake from an ostensibly reputable dealer who portrayed it as a female. Friend says 'hey I can't get this girl to breed, wanna try?'. Aside from what little could be read into the fact that it didn't breed for the OP, there's no reason to assume it wasn't sexed properly. It's one of those woulda, coulda, shoulda things. Should SOMEONE have tried to sex the snake upon receipt? Probably. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. In and of itself, I don't see how that negates the seller's responsibility to provide what was paid for: a female snake. IF the snake really is a male, I think the OP is due every cent he paid for it. To me, at least, the time involved doesn't change anything. It's not an illness where the amount of elapsed time creates a grey area.

The snake was purchased on 3/25/12 and received 3/29/12 and I received a email on June 4th saying it was mis-sexed. This is a time frame that was 2 days shy of 10 weeks.

That's quite a long timeframe...for having a breeding male and then wanting a full refund.

I recall this discussion came up some time ago, too. I was among those who was less "forgiving" if someone kept a breeding male for that long (even if they claim not to have sexed or failed attempted breedings). I would not give a full refund in this case because of the length of time involved and the fact that the snake changed hands a couple of times.

But that's just me.

 

[Fangthane]

That's quite a long timeframe...for having a breeding male and then wanting a full refund.

I recall this discussion came up some time ago, too. I was among those who was less "forgiving" if someone kept a breeding male for that long (even if they claim not to have sexed or failed attempted breedings). I would not give a full refund in this case because of the length of time involved and the fact that the snake changed hands a couple of times.

But that's just me.

It seems that we agree on the basic principle, just not specifics regarding the proper solution. I can live with that. I guess it amounts to another philosophical question that ultimately isn't for either of us, or anyone besides Outback, to answer.

 

[endrin]

OMG, can ppl plz read the WHOLE thread. 1 They ARE 2 different snakes in the pic, if you cant see the penis sticking out from the tail of the darker one then your blind. 2 THE SNAKE WAS NEVER BRED, EVER, ONCE... 3 needs to be an IQ test to be able to leave replies.. 4 I have no reason to lie, play games, screw over any FELLOW breeder, whats the point? If i had space and a female to breed him with i would keep him BUT i for damn sure do not. If they do the right thing and take him back im 100% sure they will be more than happy with the health and size the snake now is....

 

[DaveyFig]

OMG, can ppl plz read the WHOLE thread. 1 They ARE 2 different snakes in the pic, if you cant see the penis sticking out from the tail of the darker one then your blind. 2 THE SNAKE WAS NEVER BRED, EVER, ONCE... 3 needs to be an IQ test to be able to leave replies.. 4 I have no reason to lie, play games, screw over any FELLOW breeder, whats the point? If i had space and a female to breed him with i would keep him BUT i for damn sure do not. If they do the right thing and take him back im 100% sure they will be more than happy with the health and size the snake now is....

There are two different snakes in the picture. You say that the dark one with the penis sticking out is the one you bought. You say that Josh should be able to tell it is the same snake by the scar on it's nose. YOU figure that one out and then explain it to those of us with the low IQ.