Bad Guy Josh of OUTBACK REPTILES

[Lucille]

Everyone seems to be missing my point.

All the information we have been given was supplied by a third party, which is against the rules ... especially since tithe third party has not been named.

I find it interesting that many BOI regulars have not called the OP out on it before now. So until this 3rd party is named, there is no evidence.

I think some have bypassed that whole chapter in favor of a proposed video.
Even the seller is not taking the supplied picture very seriously.

I spoke with him today, and we are working on a way to verify the animal (and sex) to get the situation resolved as soon as possible.
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[Fangthane]

The snake was mis-sexed. The buyer deserves a refund. QT issues?.......C'mon, this is Outback. They have fresh imports, CH babies, established animals, etc all out on display right next to each other. In this case I think the QT aspect is a moot point.

But..but..There were two differentsnakes pictured in a breeding scenario. :::gasp::: The OP said that it was in the midst of a pairing, then shows a picture that has two different snakes in it!? What a crock...he must be up to something. Clearly, the 'junk' was cropped from the other snake and superimposed onto the 'female'.

But..but..there was a 3rd party anonymous post. As if anyone would be berating him any less if he had just lied and said it was his own picture. First it wasn't good enough because it didn't show the whole snake, now it's not good enough cause he didn't take it and hasn't named his friend. Ok, fine. Ziggy Stardust took the picture. Now that my theoretical scenario gets us past his dastardly dodging of protocol, does it change anything? Is his evidence suddenly good enough for you? FFS

I mean, history has shown us that no one can be trusted. Except, oddly enough, a seller that has been generally non-communicative when it comes to actually addressing what certainly appears to be his own mistake.

 

[Lucille]

a seller that has been generally non-communicative when it comes to actually addressing what certainly appears to be his own mistake.

You have a good point. While apparently this is a busy time for the seller with hatching snakes and whatnot, , it wasn't too busy to sell the snake.
The resolution was kicked upstairs by Josh to the owner. There is nothing wrong with that. But now that has happened, a resolution should be offered.
There are only so many solutions, it should not drag on, that is not good for either party.

 

[Fangthane]

And one more thing before I give up on this one. Do you really think a probing video proves a damn thing if it's done by someone who intends to deceive, as everyone seems to assume is the OP's intent? A video can show you exactly how much pressure someone is exerting on the probe, and whether or not it's the proper amount? There's a definite cut-off for what differentiates a male from a female? I guess you're saying there's absolutely no grey area when using sub-caudal scale counts to determine sex? It'd be pretty easy to only stick a probe in only as far as you need to, to 'prove' it's a female. Which I'm sure, based on the tone of some of the replies here, some nay-sayer would be sure to point out. A hemipenis sticking out seems pretty solid, to me. A certain degree of distrust is natural, but I think some of you are taking it wayyyy too far.

 

[Keys & Kritterz]

My point is that all of the little details about who had it, who sexed it, or this amount of time passed, etc... Is all pretty much bs IMO... If Josh agrees that is was the same snake, then the rest is irrelevant. If you sale a sexed snake wrong, that is your error, regardless of time. If you only guarantee the sex of the snake on arrival, then that should be stated in your TOS.

The buyer is not gaining anything here, so he sends the snake back under the terms that when it arrives if sexed a male a refund should be given. If its sexed a female, the buyer doesn't get a refund and has the option to pay shipping again to get the snake back.

If he wanted a female in exchange and no refund that would be very questionable as a swap could of happened. A refund of some type without returning the snake i also believe is unfair to the seller. Someone said it before its $150 that Outback is losing, thats pennies to them, and if it is a male then thats their fault. Is it worth a bad rap? At this point Outback isn't even trying to resolve the situation which no matter the outcome looks bad on them IMO.

 

[bloodybaroness]

At this point Outback isn't even trying to resolve the situation which no matter the outcome looks bad on them IMO.

Yes they are.

I am waiting to hear from the Owner of the company (Ian) on how he wants to handle the situation, before I make any formal post as it's out of my hands right now due to the time passed on the transaction, but wanted to put a time time on the sexing in question.

The snake was purchased on 3/25/12 and received 3/29/12 and I received a email on June 4th saying it was mis-sexed. This is a time frame that was 2 days shy of 10 weeks.

We were also told he was in with one of the OP males, and not a "friends" male.

While not a reason for the delay in replies, given the situation, and the amount of time elapsed, along with the picture we received (same as in thread) I had to pass the situation to the owner to see how we could handle it, and did not realize he had not replied to the buyer yet. (Its breeding season for our balls and rainbows so he has been tied up the last few weeks, not a excuse but a reason for the delay). I spoke with him today, and we are working on a way to verify the animal (and sex) to get the situation resolved as soon as possible.

I will let the OP know what we decide is the best solution as soon as I hear from the owner.

 

[Keys & Kritterz]

Thats what Josh said, how long does it take to resolve a small situation like this? Quit beating around the bush and dragging feet and get it taken care of.

 

[Matt2979]

What I don't get is, if YOU the seller mis-sex an animal and sell it to your customer, why do you only allow them a certain time to catch YOUR mistake? I don't understand punishing YOUR customer for believing in YOU, and not catching YOUR mistake.

If this is the snake that Outback sold to the OP, I don't understand why a full refund is not a good resolution for some folks.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

What I don't get is, if YOU the seller mis-sex an animal and sell it to your customer, why do you only allow them a certain time to catch YOUR mistake?

perhaps this would be a good topic for the discussion threads? In an effort to not derail this, adding my response to an open thread in business discussion forums.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205313

 

[Lucille]

April, see post #43

 

[Snake-Queen]

I mean, history has shown us that no one can be trusted. Except, oddly enough, a seller that has been generally non-communicative when it comes to actually addressing what certainly appears to be his own mistake.

I am not for the seller here, I have never bought from them ... in fact never heard of them before this thread.

I am going by STANDARD BOI protocol by asking the OP to name the third party.

It seems some of you, because it is a big breeder/dealer want to crucify them on the word of an un-named individual. I bet you wouldn't take it as gospel if the un-named 3rd party was Kruse.

While, I do agree that the sellers delay in making this right does not look good, we don't know what is going on; as it seems that both the OP & Outback have abandoned this thread. I am not saying that the OP isn't due a refund, IF the snake is a male.

That tiny picture of the back 2-3 inches of one snake and the head of another is NOT enough to identify the snake in question.

 

[Willow]

I am not for the seller here, I have never bought from them ... in fact never heard of them before this thread.

I am going by STANDARD BOI protocol by asking the OP to name the third party.

It seems some of you, because it is a big breeder/dealer want to crucify them on the word of an un-named individual. I bet you wouldn't take it as gospel if the un-named 3rd party was Kruse.

While, I do agree that the sellers delay in making this right does not look good, we don't know what is going on; as it seems that both the OP & Outback have abandoned this thread. I am not saying that the OP isn't due a refund, IF the snake is a male.

That tiny picture of the back 2-3 inches of one snake and the head of another is NOT enough to identify the snake in question.

I agree 100%

The OP is the one who came here and made a claim...in a court of law (which IS slightly what the BOI is in this industry) it would be HIS burden to prove what he is claiming. No judge or jury would just take his word, and that tiny picture which CANNOT identify the snake, as legit proof. This has NOTHING to do with people jumping on any band wagon for Josh.

Once legit proof of the claim being made is available, I can almost guaranteeing this will be resolved. Until there, it will just be a lot of horse beating on what people THINK should happen.

the video does not need to be of probing...colubrids are fairly easy to pop if you know how. There would be no mistaking the gender if the snake was popped on video.

So no...people are not attacking the OP....they are simply expecting him to prove what he is saying without a reasonable doubt, since he is the one saying it, its just like in every other BOI that has pretty much EVER been posted.

 

[endrin]

If i were to hear from Ian instead of being told that he is again being emailed i will gladly do as he askes to prove it. The 3rd party is a friend, local breeder who you will not know.
Keys & Kritterz, I am on vacation during said swap times nor am i going to drive 2 hours each way on my day off plus gas&tolls to bring a snake to anyone because i should not have too. I would have gone for the send without refund until sexed but after this i dont think i would get anything back snake or money. 5 days past since i was told i was getting a call. If you ordered a TV and got a blender instead you ALL would want the mistake mad right, even tho its still a snake its as useful to me as the blender....... Now i will pursue other means to get this rectified.

 

[Lucille]

The 3rd party is a friend, local breeder who you will not know.
.

You've been clued by both members and a mod that you need to name the 3rd party and yet you continue to flout what is an actual rule here.
Now you are playing games.

 

[mikepanzarella]

if you ordered a tv and got a blender it wouldnt take you the amount of time it did to contact the seller
regardless if we would know them or not his quotes need a name behind them (3rd party)

 

[Lucille]

members

Thank you Melissa, for seeing that and not allowing it to be buried under other posts.

 

[wes smith]

Everyone seems to be missing my point.

All the information we have been given was supplied by a third party, which is against the rules ... especially since tithe third party has not been named.

I find it interesting that many BOI regulars have not called the OP out on it before now. So until this 3rd party is named, there is no evidence.

The OP stated he himself tried to breed this snake for 2 weeks prior to sending it to the friend. All the information would include the OP's account of the situation too. He has also supplied information in the form of e-mail transactions between he and the seller that shows he contacted the seller and got no resolution. The only information that could be stated as from a third party would be the picture posted, but i don't think this is ALL of the information supplied in this thread. The next time someone has an issue with Outback and does not get any resolution or response, then this thread will be here.
I also wanted to state that the picture in question would only serve Outback any good if they themselves keep photographic evidence of all the animals they sell. If that is the case, then shouldn't Outback be held to the same standard and requested that they (Outback) post their "proof" in the form of their photographic record?

 

[Lucille]

After trying for 2 weeks or so i thought it might be my male ( he is a lil picky) so i gave her to my friend who has been breeding for 25 years thinking he might have some evil trickes to get her to breed. He had her for roughly 2 weeks, then i get a cell picturemail of my "females" junk hanging out loud and proud..

The only information that could be stated as from a third party would be the picture posted

Isn't the picture, and thus the buyer's claim he was sent a male, central to this entire issue? It's not 'only information' it is 'the' (alleged) information.

 

[Fangthane]

The 3rd party is a friend, local breeder who you will not know.

You've gone out of your way to be vague and avoided directly addressing this concern, both in this thread, and via PM. Even I'm starting to think something looks shady. Unless there really is something to hide, the Cloak & Dagger routine isn't helping your case. If a simple name is all that people are asking for to clear up at least one small point of contention, your refusal to comply with that request (and, yes, BOI protocol), is lending credence to whatever doubts people already have about your claims. Unless his name happens to be Chris Johnson, I just don't get it.

 

[DaveyFig]

The OP stated he himself tried to breed this snake for 2 weeks prior to sending it to the friend.

He also said that he thought that his male might be the problem and then sent the snake to someone else without sexing it, even though he said he knows how to sex snakes.

All the information would include the OP's account of the situation too.

The problem is that the OP is using the photo to back up the his claims. He doesn't have the snake in his possession. He still has not sexed the snake himself. You can gather information from wherever you want, but to repeat it puts you in a position to have to prove it. He hasn't cited his source, other than to say he is a 25 year veteran snake keeper that didn't quarantine a snake before introducing it to his collection, didn't sex the snake prior to introducing it for breeding, and has provided the only visual evidence for this thread anonymously.

He has also supplied information in the form of e-mail transactions between he and the seller that shows he contacted the seller and got no resolution.

The seller does need to be in contact with the buyer regardless of what else is going off. This is why I will be looking elsewhere for snakes.

The only information that could be stated as from a third party would be the picture posted, but i don't think this is ALL of the information supplied in this thread.

It is the basis for all information presented though. The OP got a snake that he says was not in breeding condition and fed it good for a few weeks and tried to breed it. For all we know, the snake didn't breed because it wasn't in proper condition in spite of those few weeks. The OP didn't question the gender (or he would have sexed it) until seeing the picture.

The next time someone has an issue with Outback and does not get any resolution or response, then this thread will be here.

For that, I am thankful.

I also wanted to state that the picture in question would only serve Outback any good if they themselves keep photographic evidence of all the animals they sell.

The OP has given Outback reminders about the snake too. He mentioned that the snake would appear fatter than when they sent it (though I don't know how much a few weeks would help), but he also mentioned that it has a scar on the nose that they would remember. That pic doesn't show the snakes nose. That is a start. Posting a pic or video that is all inclusive might just make Outback say "Oh yeah... that IS the snake we sent, and it WAS sexed improperly!"

If that is the case, then shouldn't Outback be held to the same standard and requested that they (Outback) post their "proof" in the form of their photographic record?

If the OP proves his case, then Outback pays him and gets the snake back. They would be able to present their own photos if they feel they are still right, or chalk it up to a poorly sexed snake if they are at fault. The burden of proof is on the OP until Outback has the snake in their possession.