Bad Guy Josh of OUTBACK REPTILES

[Snake-Queen]

If i were to hear from Ian instead of being told that he is again being emailed i will gladly do as he askes to prove it. The 3rd party is a friend, local breeder who you will not know.
Keys & Kritterz, I am on vacation during said swap times nor am i going to drive 2 hours each way on my day off plus gas&tolls to bring a snake to anyone because i should not have too. I would have gone for the send without refund until sexed but after this i dont think i would get anything back snake or money. 5 days past since i was told i was getting a call. If you ordered a TV and got a blender instead you ALL would want the mistake mad right, even tho its still a snake its as useful to me as the blender....... Now i will pursue other means to get this rectified.

Regardless whether we will know him or not, his name has to be provided. You have been asked bluntly by myself, a mod and other members to provide his name, yet you dance around the request like you are omit from the rules.

So, I am going to be the witch here and call BS on your whole story.

If I was the one with this issue, I would drive the 2hrs to retrieve the snake; so that i would be able to sex the snake myself and take proper pictures.

Regardless of the outcome, I think the lack of response from Outback is appallingly. No business should ignore any issue a customer has.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Regardless whether we will know him or not, his name has to be provided. You have been asked bluntly by myself, a mod and other members to provide his name, yet you dance around the request like you are omit from the rules.

So, I am going to be the witch here and call BS on your whole story.

If I was the one with this issue, I would drive the 2hrs to retrieve the snake; so that i would be able to sex the snake myself and take proper pictures.

Regardless of the outcome, I think the lack of response from Outback is appallingly. No business should ignore any issue a customer has.

Agree on all points (not the "Witch" part).

I also want to add, that he doesn't even have to drive 2 hours, his breeding friend with the 25 years of experience probably has a camera (who doesn't with Cell phones these days?) and can take the identifying pictures, himself, and send them to his friend (fully identifying, with junk showing...not two different snakes in one picture).

Also, (to the OP) you had no problems posting that dubious picture (in one of the above posts) on here, why the sudden need to give a picture to Outback? Puteruphere!

 

[cguarino30]

For goodness sake it's a $150 sale on a thayeri that Outback prolly paid $50 to ship. I have known Ian before Outback and have dealt with Josh on/off when Ian is too busy. I can't count how many freakin' transactions I've had with them (maybe more than 100 deals?-both buying and selling). They buy and sell animals constantly and I'm sure someone accidentally miss sexed/miss represented the sex of this snake before they acquired it. The staff prolly didn't have time to resex the snake or forgot to. They have always been more than fair with me in ALL the deals I had with them. Just hold your horses and they'll resolve it. If you can make it to the White Plains show, it is prolly easiest for you to just bring the animal back to them, explain the situation, and this will be resolved. I am sure no one at Outback is trying to rip anyone off over an $150 thayeri deal.

I am as aware of Outback's reputation as anyone else, and I don't think the OP was trying to insinuate that this was an intentional ripoff. If I interpret correctly (and please, OP, do not let me speak for you if I am wrong) the main issue here is not so much that the snake turned out to be male, it is that Outback is doing nothing to deal with it.

That being said, I had a very similar situation with Josh in which a snake I had purchased was accidentally switched with another of lower quality (frankly, unsellable quality) and I had exactly the same problems in terms of getting Josh to do anything about it, and that was after he had admitted that the mistake was 100% on their end. Essentially, it took 3 months and dozens of emails and phone calls, many times during which I had to remind him who I was and what I was talking about.

I will say that they did eventually refund me half of my purchase price, which I agreed to as a fair compromise, but my complaint was the complete lack of customer service with regard to online purchasing, namely Josh. In fact, we had both agreed upon the compromise a full month before I actually got the refund.

My advice to the OP is to keep on them. Even going through my mixup, I never got the impression that anyone was intentionally trying to rip me off, just that they were severely lacking in customer service skills. Frustrating as it is, try to remind yourself that these guys deal with thousands of animals a year, that mistakes are bound to be made, and that they have a tremendous reputation throughout the industry, which is hard to find these days. Keep calling and emailing and I think someone will eventually someone will get around to doing the right thing. Personally, I don't think it's good enough to have to put up with the hassle, but what choice do you have?

If anyone at Outback is reading this post, I will say that I would highly recommend you develop a better procedure for handling customer complaints, as the OP's problem is extremely similar to mine, and despite your reputation and the fact that you eventually made good on my dissatisfaction, I still would think twice before ever dealing with you again. If Josh is overworked, get someone else to handle returns. I found the whole experience to be extremely unprofessional, as I'm sure the OP has as well.

 

[FireStorm]

Just to be clear, while I agree that there appears to be a communication problem with Outback, I think the situation may be out of Josh's control at this point. I believe he is an employee, not the owner, so even if Josh agrees that there was a problem he might not be able to resolve it without passing it up the chain of command.

From Josh's posts, it sounds like he had to pass the situation on to the owner, and he wasn't aware that the owner hadn't replied to the buyer.

 

[FireStorm]

Agree on all points (not the "Witch" part).

I also want to add, that he doesn't even have to drive 2 hours, his breeding friend with the 25 years of experience probably has a camera (who doesn't with Cell phones these days?) and can take the identifying pictures, himself, and send them to his friend (fully identifying, with junk showing...not two different snakes in one picture).

Also, (to the OP) you had no problems posting that dubious picture (in one of the above posts) on here, why the sudden need to give a picture to Outback? Puteruphere!

I am sure the friend has a camera. He must since he took the first picture.

 

[Lucille]

Just to be clear, while I agree that there appears to be a communication problem with Outback, I think the situation may be out of Josh's control at this point. I believe he is an employee, not the owner, so even if Josh agrees that there was a problem he might not be able to resolve it without passing it up the chain of command.

From Josh's posts, it sounds like he had to pass the situation on to the owner, and he wasn't aware that the owner hadn't replied to the buyer.

That might have worked for a day. But once he WAS aware, he and the owner should have worked to provide an answer. By now, it looks like more than an accidental delay.

It seems like both parties have a little to work on: the buyer is playing games with requests that he identify his third party, and the seller is not responding in a way that another buyer has now said was similar to the way he was treated.

 

[cguarino30]

Just to be clear, while I agree that there appears to be a communication problem with Outback, I think the situation may be out of Josh's control at this point. I believe he is an employee, not the owner, so even if Josh agrees that there was a problem he might not be able to resolve it without passing it up the chain of command.

From Josh's posts, it sounds like he had to pass the situation on to the owner, and he wasn't aware that the owner hadn't replied to the buyer.

This was the excuse given to me upon many of my calls or emails, but the problem wasn't that Josh can't make the decision, the problem is that he doesn't bother to bring it to Ian, who can. At least three separate times Josh and I would come to an understanding, at which point he would tell me he needs to check with Ian, as it is Ian's business, and I would agree, as that is perfectly understandable. Then I would hear absolutely nothing back, would wait a couple weeks with no contact, would call again, only to find out, by his own admission, that Josh never even asked Ian about it. That happened at least 3 times. If Josh doesn't have the power to make decisions like that, it is his responsibility to bring the situation to the attention of a person who can. The fact that he can't make the decision on his own does not get him off the hook for doing anything about it.

I personally work in a sales industry, and if one of my clients has a request that I can not ok on my own, I immediately contact my supervisor for approval. Whether I get it or not, I immediately contact the client to let them know. To simply not get around to asking the boss about it is completely ridiculous. I can't say for sure that this is Josh's fault. He could be lazy, or maybe he just has way too much on his plate, but either way, it is Outback Reptiles' responsibility, as a sales organization, to make sure these issues get handled. If the problem is Josh, then someone needs to make sure Josh handles his responsibilities. If Josh is a great guy, but he is overworked, then it is still Outback's responsibility to put a system in place that can handle the issues, even if that means they need to hire someone else to help Josh out.

 

[deborahbroadus]

This was the excuse given to me upon many of my calls or emails, but the problem wasn't that Josh can't make the decision, the problem is that he doesn't bother to bring it to Ian, who can. At least three separate times Josh and I would come to an understanding, at which point he would tell me he needs to check with Ian, as it is Ian's business, and I would agree, as that is perfectly understandable. Then I would hear absolutely nothing back, would wait a couple weeks with no contact, would call again, only to find out, by his own admission, that Josh never even asked Ian about it. That happened at least 3 times. If Josh doesn't have the power to make decisions like that, it is his responsibility to bring the situation to the attention of a person who can. The fact that he can't make the decision on his own does not get him off the hook for doing anything about it.

I personally work in a sales industry, and if one of my clients has a request that I can not ok on my own, I immediately contact my supervisor for approval. Whether I get it or not, I immediately contact the client to let them know. To simply not get around to asking the boss about it is completely ridiculous. I can't say for sure that this is Josh's fault. He could be lazy, or maybe he just has way too much on his plate, but either way, it is Outback Reptiles' responsibility, as a sales organization, to make sure these issues get handled. If the problem is Josh, then someone needs to make sure Josh handles his responsibilities. If Josh is a great guy, but he is overworked, then it is still Outback's responsibility to put a system in place that can handle the issues, even if that means they need to hire someone else to help Josh out.

That aspect of customer service certainly made sense to me the way you explained it.

Doesn't put the OP off the hook as far as providing appropriate documentation regarding identity, but also doesn't excuse the seller's responsibility in this mess.

 

[deborahbroadus]

That might have worked for a day. But once he WAS aware, he and the owner should have worked to provide an answer. By now, it looks like more than an accidental delay.

It seems like both parties have a little to work on: the buyer is playing games with requests that he identify his third party, and the seller is not responding in a way that another buyer has now said was similar to the way he was treated.

Oops, seems you said it first...

 

[Josh@Outbackreps]

Below is a email from Ian on how we feel is the best way to resolve this issue, and it has been sent to Paul as well.

We feel this is the best way to go as we will be able to verify the animal to be the actual animal we sent (with no doubt) as well as the current health of the animal.

This also allows the sex to be verified both both parties together so there is no doubt in either parties mind.


Josh,

I told you last week that I would get back with reference Paul Adamo. My position still has not changed. These are the situations which just turn out to be losers for everyone. Had Paul contacted you within a few days regarding the sex of the animal I would have given him a refund with no questions asked. The simple fact of the matter is that he waited more than two months to make contact. The animal is no longer in his care. He refused our offer to refund or exchange the animal at a reptile show. We have no way of knowing if the animal is the same one that we shipped or if it is even still healthy. If we made a mistake I am happy to resolve it but Paul will need to meet up with us with the snake. I know that you informed him that we will be at both Hamburg and White Plains. Please tell him that we attend all of those show dates. If he would like to meet up with us at a later date with the snake than I will be happy to find a resolution. Thanks ~ Ian

 

[endrin]

Here is the reply I got from Ian so wanted to Forward it over to you.



I feel this is a good fix for the issue so that way we can verify that the animal is the same snake that we sold you, knowing chances are is, but will allow us to confirm the animal as well as the health of it.





Thanks, Outback Reptiles
[email protected]

(703)365-2262 Office
(703)789-1697 Cell






-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Paul Adamo
From: Ian Gniazdowski <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, June 22, 2012 1:35 pm
To: [email protected]


Josh,



I told you last week that I would get back with reference Paul Adamo. My position still has not changed. These are the situations which just turn out to be losers for everyone. Had Paul contacted you within a few days regarding the sex of the animal I would have given him a refund with no questions asked. The simple fact of the matter is that he waited more than two months to make contact. The animal is no longer in his care. He refused our offer to refund or exchange the animal at a reptile show. We have no way of knowing if the animal is the same one that we shipped or if it is even still healthy. If we made a mistake I am happy to resolve it but Paul will need to meet up with us with the snake. I know that you informed him that we will be at both Hamburg and White Plains. Please tell him that we attend all of those show dates. If he would like to meet up with us at a later date with the snake than I will be happy to find a resolution. Thanks ~ Ian

Is the full I got.

 

[radera5]

Paul, you still need to NAME your friend...

Just post his name and be done with it. Then meet up with Josh or Ian at a show and get your refund/female.

Easy fix. That email should NOT have taken so long, but it is a very reasonable solution none the less.

I'll say it again, POST your friends NAME. Simple.

 

[Snake-Queen]

I'll say it again, POST your friends NAME. Simple.

He isn't going to. He has been told to, per BOI rules. Either this friend doesn't exist or there is something else going on.

I don't like the response time from Outback, but the solution is a good one. Paul, get the snake from your "friend" and take it to the show. Otherwise, it will look like you made the whole thing up. (It is still my opinion that might be the case, as you seem bent on ignoring our requests to provide your "friend's" name & refusing to get more pictures.)

Before anyone jumps on me saying, why would the OP fabricate this? Scammers (not saying the OP is one) don't have to have a reason ... maybe he wants a free snake, maybe "she" won't breed ... I cant tell you why the OP would fabricate this. Maybe he is telling the truth, but without a name to go on, it is hard to say. Without better pictures, the snake with his junk out could be any snake.

Mis-sexing happens, I am not saying it isn't possible Outback messed up, I am saying there are enough holes in the OP's story to drive a bus through.

 

[Willow]

*sigh* this is such an easy fix....and has been dragged out and turned into 16 pages of "what the heck is going on??" to everyone who is reading it.

Paul you posted the solution email that was given to you, but you posted no response to it.

Will you be getting this resolved, or have you decided you are done playing cuz it stopped being fun? cuz at this point this seems like one huge game...name your 3rd party, as per requests and the BOI RULES and take that snake to a show to get this resolved.

 

[Randy F]

Paul, given the time frame you are dealing with I would say you are being treated more than fair. Now with saying this, know that I have issues with Josh and will never buy a snake from him or recommend anyone I know to him. This is simply the fact that you are being treated fairly with their response. I would take them up on their offer. You are ruining your name on fauna and going against rules. Cut your loses and look at the overall picture

 

[endrin]

How im ruining my name is a mystery to me, but my friend did not want to be named because he really has nothing to do with this other than happening to catch that the snake was a male then sending me a pic. After having him read all this he gave me permission to name him. Just curious, since he is my friend and if he did not give me permission to name him would i have been banned? Or would it have been better that i lie and say i took the pic and i found out the snake was a male? His name is Doug Donnelly, staten island NY breeder.

I plan to meet up with Ian in hamburg PA the 4th of august.

 

[DaveyFig]

How im ruining my name is a mystery to me, but my friend did not want to be named because he really has nothing to do with this other than happening to catch that the snake was a male then sending me a pic. After having him read all this he gave me permission to name him. Just curious, since he is my friend and if he did not give me permission to name him would i have been banned? Or would it have been better that i lie and say i took the pic and i found out the snake was a male? His name is Doug Donnelly, staten island NY breeder.

I plan to meet up with Ian in hamburg PA the 4th of august.

Is that Doug Donnelly aka 4D Serpents?

If you had lied, you wouldn't have been hounded about the third party rule.

However, if you lied, you would have to live with that. Some people are ok with that. If you were asked for additional pictures, it would have become obvious very quickly that you didn't have the snake anyway.

In the future, if you don't want to name someone, don't use them. If you feel you must use their words or pictures or information just be ready to name the source. It was nothing against you personally, you were just in violation of a rule.

 

[bullies&balls]

Ian's response to TIME FRAME is total BS IMO. If I had the animal shipped and not lived close to those shows, then to get it right I'd have to travel to them... I'm sorry but it ISN'T the byers job to do the sellers JOB. EITHICS have changed ALOT over the years, I can say that for sure.

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

Ian's response to TIME FRAME is total BS IMO. If I had the animal shipped and not lived close to those shows, then to get it right I'd have to travel to them... I'm sorry but it ISN'T the byers job to do the sellers JOB. EITHICS have changed ALOT over the years, I can say that for sure.

So how are the seller's ethics in question when the buyer emails them a grainy picture of what appears to be one snake's head and another snake's tail and asks for a refund? There is still no proof that the snake was sexed incorrectly (by the seller). For all we know Outback did sex the snake correctly.

I'm sure mistakes happen, but I'm more inclined to believe that the person who doesn't have a firm grasp of anatomical terminology is the one making a mistake.

 

[hhmoore]

EITHICS have changed ALOT over the years, I can say that for sure.

Yeah...I remember the good old days, too - getting newly caught ratsnakes that had literally rubbed half their faces off, lizards and turtles with missing legs, emaciated animals that I was surprised survived the trip (and some that didn't), etc and the best you could expect was a credit on your next order.

After over 2 months, and the animal being in another breeder's care (and possibly bred), I can understand any company wanting to inspect it for themselves before taking it back. Unfortunately, we don't know what Outback's response would have been after the same time period if the snake had stayed in the care of the purchaser and simply been found to be a male; and there's no sense speculating about that....they played the cards they were handed. I don't necessarily agree (or disagree) with their decision, but I can understand the rationale behind it.

I will say that I have made one purchase from Outback...there was a problem with one snake, and I immediately brought it to their attention. I tried their suggestions, without effect, and wanted a refund. I was given the same "Have to talk to Ian", "Still waiting to hear from Ian" lines, and it didn't sit well with me. I responded that if Ian was going to screw me over, he (Josh) should just tell me instead of jerking me around. At that point, I was offered an acceptable replacement/exchange. Of course, this one didn't come with paperwork; and they didn't breed for me this year, so I'm sort of stuck (I can't sell them as hets when I only have paperwork on the male, and they haven't produced so I can't guarantee the genetics.)