Jungle Habitats / Alan Hall - it has been 10 months!

[PaulSage]

After learning about a new cage Alan was making on another forum, I decided to place an order for ten of them on June 1, 2006. Here is the email confirmation and Paypal payment:

(Sorry, but for some reason my email doesn’t let me copy & paste the sender, recipient & date. If it really makes any difference, I can post screen shots showing the info.)

JungleHabitatsPlastics
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: 35
Detailed Invoice: http://junglehabitatsplastics.com/osCommerce/catalog/account_history_info.php?order_id=35
Date Ordered: Thursday 01 June, 2006

I hope I did this right. I'd like the cages to be made in WHITE. Please give me a heads up before shipping them so that I know when to expect them. Thanks.

Products
------------------------------------------------------
1 x 10pk 12" Kritter Kubes () = $350.00
Kritter Kube w/Top window Updrade
10 x Non locking Thumb Latch (TH-turn) = $77.50
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: $427.50
Total: $427.50

Delivery Address
------------------------------------------------------
Paul Sage Reptiles
Paul Sage
4610 Onaway Pass
Madison, WI 53711
United States

Billing Address
------------------------------------------------------
Paul Sage Reptiles
Paul Sage
4610 Onaway Pass
Madison, WI 53711
United States

Payment Method
------------------------------------------------------
PayPal

Alan replied to my order with this:

JungleHabitatsPlastics
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: 35
Detailed Invoice: http://junglehabitatsplastics.com/osCommerce/catalog/account_history_info.php?order_id=35
Date Ordered: Thursday 01 June, 2006

The comments for your order are

Hi paul,

Wanted to let you know everything is underway, ill be in touch in about 1 1/2 weeks to arrange shipping to you via Fed Ex Ground signature required. please make sure to unbox and inspect the units before signing for them ( if there are any damages just note them to the driver_) and I will handle it from there and send out any needed replacements.

Thanks For your Order!!
Alan



Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Processing

Please reply to this email if you have any questions.

Further correspondence regarding the order:

6/16/06
This is a message from Jungle Habitats Plastics at GeckoForums.net ( http://www.geckoforums.net/index.php ). The GeckoForums.net owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email Jungle Habitats Plastics, you can use this online form:
http://www.geckoforums.net/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=44

OR, by email:
mailto:[email protected]

This is the message:

Hey paul im aboutto do the doors on these kubes , i wanted to check before i do hinges to see if you have a preferrence for side opening or folding down ?Im just waiting for the t turns to come in hopefully mon / tuesday and ill package these up and schedule shipping. Ill post pics ofthem today but wont have the t turns on them.
Alan

6/26/06

JungleHabitatsPlastics
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: 35
Detailed Invoice: http://junglehabitatsplastics.com/osCommerce/catalog/account_history_info.php?order_id=35
Date Ordered: Thursday 01 June, 2006

The comments for your order are

Paul ,

just wanted to let you know I will be sending you something extra on your order for the delay on my end in getting them to you as i had promised. I apologize for the delay and hope that there will be no hard feelings as a result of this delay. regards Alan



Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Order is Built

Please reply to this email if you have any questions.

7/16/06
JungleHabitatsPlastics
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: 35
Detailed Invoice: http://junglehabitatsplastics.com/osCommerce/catalog/account_history_info.php?order_id=35
Date Ordered: Thursday 01 June, 2006

The comments for your order are

Paul ,

Im going to box up part of the order on Monday evening and will send some out to you I have 5 of the ones w thumb turns reaqdy i found Five in a box in my shop the others I am expecting in first part of this week as the supplier on those had to wait for there order from over seas to arrive in . You should be getting the first part by thursday or so of this comming week. I am also going to send you two black ones i have here & a 10 gall kit topper for the delay on your order.

Regards
Alan



Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Order is Built

Please reply to this email if you have any questions.

8/2/06

JungleHabitatsPlastics
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: 35
Detailed Invoice: http://junglehabitatsplastics.com/osCommerce1/catalog/account_history_info.php?order_id=35
Date Ordered: Thursday 01 June, 2006

The comments for your order are

Paul ,

Your order is finally being finished the remainder of the latches came in today. I will get the balance of them installed Thursday evening when i get back to the shop here . Can you use a 6 qt baby rack that holds 10 tubs ? If so I have a black one and can build a white one if you prefer white next week when i get back with some more white materials for some orders. Ill send you that free of charge as well as the two Black cages i told you about ( these have grey external latches) i can remove them they would leave a screw hole and put the matching latches on the black ones as well. Iwill be shipping your group of cages out positively on Friday morning on the way out of town. this will consist of the 10 kritter kubes in white w/ t turns & top window. Two black ones( let me know on the t turns on those two)
Let me know on the racks what color you prefer and ill get that out to you by the end of next week the rack will come with back heat as im out and dont normally like belly myself but my partner has some at the shop i can get if you prefer belly just let me know .

Im very sorry for the delays
Regards
Alan



Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Order is Built

Please reply to this email if you have any questions.

I finally received a shipment confirmation through FedEx on August 8th (2006).

8/8/06

This tracking update has been requested by:

Name: 'not provided by requestor'

E-mail: 'not provided by requestor'



Alan Hall of Alan Hall sent Paul Sage of Paul Sage Reptiles 1
FedEx Ground package(s).


The tracking number(s) is (are)
485274510002114


To track the latest status of your shipment, click on the tracking number above,
or visit us at fedex.com.

To learn more about FedEx Ground, please visit our website at fedex.com.

This tracking update has been sent to you by FedEx on the behalf of the
Requestor noted above. FedEx does not validate the authenticity of the
requestor and does not validate, guarantee or warrant the authenticity of the
request, the requestor's message, or the accuracy of this tracking update. For
tracking results and fedex.com's terms of use, go to fedex.com.

Disclaimer
--------------------------------------------------------------
FedEx has not validated the authenticity of any email address.

When the package arrived, there were only four of the cages inside. I figured that maybe the rest were separated during transit and would arrive the following day, but they didn’t.

Then on August 21/22 I received another shipment confirmation.

8/21/06
JungleHabitatsPlastics
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: 35
Detailed Invoice: http://junglehabitatsplastics.com/osCommerce1/catalog/account_history_info.php?order_id=35
Date Ordered: Thursday 01 June, 2006

The comments for your order are


Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Your order is shipping

Please reply to this email if you have any questions.

8/22/06


This tracking update has been requested by:

Name: 'not provided by requestor'

E-mail: 'not provided by requestor'

________________________________________________________________________________


Alan Hall of Alan Hall sent Paul Sage of Paul Sage Reptiles 1
FedEx Ground package(s).


The tracking number(s) is (are)
485274510002138


To track the latest status of your shipment, click on the tracking number above,
or visit us at fedex.com.

To learn more about FedEx Ground, please visit our website at fedex.com.

This tracking update has been sent to you by FedEx on the behalf of the
Requestor noted above. FedEx does not validate the authenticity of the
requestor and does not validate, guarantee or warrant the authenticity of the
request, the requestor's message, or the accuracy of this tracking update. For
tracking results and fedex.com's terms of use, go to fedex.com.

Disclaimer
--------------------------------------------------------------
FedEx has not validated the authenticity of any email address.

After those cages arrived (the second set of four – eight total of ten ordered) I didn’t hear anything from Alan. I asked someone whom had frequent contact with him to let him know I still wanted the rest of my order (through a post on GF) and he sent me this:

12/8/06
Hey Paul ,

I got a trace on the package and it was never deleivered. It was suppose to have came back to me nut they said they will have to find the package. mean while I have enough white here i think to build two units out of. I will build what i can out of this material and Send it to you along with the solvent for the hinges you needed. Ill also get the two black ones i have here and send outto you if you want them ? I have no use for them at all ( i did use them for keeping crickets in for a while for the geckos but they are not messed up. If you want them two let me know ill ship them to you .
Alan

My response to his email: (I had to re-send it because I forgot about the special instructions at the bottom of the email from him)

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Sage [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ATTN: JungleHabitatsPlastics.com



Hey Alan, I just realized the bottom part of your email.
Thanks


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Sage [_mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 8:16 PM
To: 'Jungle Habitats Plastics @ GeckoForums.net'
Subject: RE: Paul ,

Alan, I don't believe I ever received a shipment notification for a third package, otherwise I would have been watching for them and would have noticed that they didn't arrive.
Sorry to hear about your site being hacked. I understand that your email may not have been working, and that's why I tried contacting you through PM on TRR.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Jungle Habitats Plastics @ GeckoForums.net [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 5:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Paul ,

This is a message from Jungle Habitats Plastics at GeckoForums.net ( http://www.geckoforums.net/index.php ). The GeckoForums.net owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email Jungle Habitats Plastics, you can use this online form:
http://www.geckoforums.net/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=44

OR, by email:
mailto:[email protected]

This is the message:

I had sent out the order on the other two kubes some time back , it was about two weeks after the second order was sent. I will check fed ex and see what happened as i didnt ever receive them back here . I will also send out some solvent for the hinges you said popped off. My email have not been working properly since my site was hacked so there are alot of email i havent gotten and didnt get until i went to the site for the DNS change and looked in webmail there was over 100 email that were sitting there. Let me try to get that dont tonight and ill email you thursday with what i find out . If they were deleivered they would have been signed for and i should have a signature on the file for them on fed ex site. If they are not sitting in the hub and your signature isnt on the card ill send out the two soon as i can get them built I think i have enough white in the shop to build them .
Please bare with me until thursday and ill let you know whats going on .

Alan

if you try to email me send them directly to junglehabitats@charter,net and make sure to put ATTN: JungleHabitatsPlastics.com in the subject header or it will be filtered out and i wont get it .

I never heard anything, so I sent him an email on the 18th of January (2007) but I didn’t get a response to it, so I copied it into a PM on TRR.

1/27/07

Alan, did you get the email I sent you on the 18th? I put ATTN: JungleHabitatsPlastics.com in the subject line like you had asked previously.

Here it is, just in case you didn't get it...

Hi Alan,

I don't suppose you might have an update on this yet?

Honestly, this is rather disappointing. Well, beyond disappointing I guess, but I'm in a relatively decent mood today. Do you even remember offering to send me a hatchling rack for the major delays in my order? We talked about it in chat on GeckoForums.net sometime last summer I think--I don't recall when exactly, and I don't really feel like trying to dig through chat logs right now. I would much rather just hear that you have no intentions of ever sending the rest of my order that I paid for in JUNE instead of hearing all of these apparently empty promises.

I expect to have one of the following by January 31, 2007 1. The rest of my order and the solvent to fix the broken hinges 2. A refund for the undelivered items 3. A statement from you saying, "Tough luck, you're S.O.L." (at least then I could just write this whole thing off)

Regards,
Paul

He replied to my PM right away:

Hey paul , Yes i got the email it was on my other PC i have a new one now other finally shit on me . You will be getting your items Paul , If you can send me a Pm here or email it to me back on the other email you had sent to ( [email protected] ) I have the kubes done here Have to build the baby rack which i wont have materials until I get back Monday after next on that but ill get the kubes out to you this coming week. If you will send me the addy ship to as all your info was on the old site that was crashed / hacked so i dont have info anymore. Ill also be sending you something for your troubles when you get the kubes inside them You will have a glue kit for the hinges that neede d to be fixed .
Sorry for all of your troubles i have caused you
regards
Alan

48 hours ago I sent him another PM telling him that I would be posting this here tonight. He made no effort to contact me again.

SO, to sum it up – I paid for ten cages on 6/1/06 and received eight of them by the end of August 2006. I have received nothing from him since that time, and I think I’ve been far more than patient. I know I don’t have all of the correspondence listed above but I really don’t think it’s necessary—it’s just more excuses and apologies which, unfortunately, I can’t house a reptile in. Alan and I even talked about it in chat sometime last summer/fall and he knew that some of the hinges were detaching from the cages and promised to make “it” up to me by sending me two extra cages as well as a hatchling rack and some adhesive/solvent for the hinges. I didn’t really care about the extras, I just wanted what I ordered.

Since that time I decided to just get rid of the cages and try to forget about the whole thing (I’m getting ready to move and don’t want to take them with me.) A good friend sold the cages for me at a show after I glued the hinges back on with super glue. Right now I also feel compelled to mention that in the second shipment of cages, two of them looked like crickets had been housed in them and they were really dirty. I know he mentioned something about having crickets housed in something, but I was under the impression that he was referring to the black cages that he said he would send me at no charge to make up for the delays. I have no objects to sterilizing new housing prior to putting it into use, but having to scrub insect feces off of something that's supposed to be new is a little absurd in my opinion.

I sincerely don’t expect anything from Alan at this point as I’ve written it off. However, since I had people asking me to let them know how I liked the cages because they were possibly interested in ordering some of them as well, I figured I might as well post this as a “caution” if nothing else.

Thanks a lot, Alan. This is the first and only time I haven’t received what I paid for. Now I know how it feels.

 

[Lucille]

Paul,

I think that for custom cages a wait is almost inevitable; to me, a reasonable time for having ten small cages built and shipped would be a couple of months.
People buy cages to put critters in and if the housing is not forthcoming within a reasonable time because of technical problems, I think a full refund should be issued to allow purchase elsewhere.

I think that ten months, especially with all the correspondence above, is way out of line and is way too long.

I have Vision cages in all but one of my reptile enclosures and I am very happy with them. I had a custom chameleon cage built recently and the company I chose had it built and shipped to me within ten days or so and it is a flawless cage.

I'm sorry you had to go through all that.

 

[KelliH]

Paul, it sounds like you have been more than patient with Alan. Lucille is correct about custom cage orders taking longer but Alan says he will be shipping in 1 1/2 weeks in his reply to your order. For you to have waited ten months is just a testimony to the fact that you are a really nice person and you gave Alan MORE than ample time to get this resolved.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Sorry to hear that Paul. I can't imagine being as patient as you have been.
I do believe that after this post, Allan will get your stuff built/shipped (or a refund). I do not believe that he would take your money and give you nothing in return, IMHO. Good luck

 

[PaulSage]

I received the following PM from Alan this morning (through TRR - that seems to be the only way to contact him).

Paul,
Just got your email
I no longer use paypal online or for anything , if you would like to send me a online payment request ill try to make as payment that way or i will send out a postal money order on monday to you for the balance of the order owed to you . I am truely sorry for the delays in this as it was not my intended way for this order to go.
Regards
Alan

Alan, if you're reading this: I'm not sure how I'm supposed to send you a payment request if you no longer use Paypal. My address is posted in this thread should you feel so inclined to send me a refund, but like I already said, I sincerely expect nothing from you. At this point $85.50 feels like an insult for how much time I've spent trying to hunt you down just to get what I paid for ten months ago. If sending a refund would make YOU feel better, then go for it - but don't think you're doing me a favor.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to send you a payment request if you no longer use Paypal.

Alan uses Google now. The address for Google is checkout.google.com.

 

[LadyViper]

Paul,

Why didn't you just ask on TRR? If he wants to give yo a refund, just take it. Why bother posting this, if your just out to try and hurt his business. I don't know you or him, but your making yourself look bad, by not excepting his offer. Things happen in business and I don't mean to make light of what looks like bad customer service, but It doesn't seem to be the norm. for jungle habitats. Just my opinion....Atleast your getting it resolved...

 

[Lucille]

I received the following PM from Alan this morning (through TRR - that seems to be the only way to contact him).



Alan, if you're reading this: I'm not sure how I'm supposed to send you a payment request if you no longer use Paypal. My address is posted in this thread should you feel so inclined to send me a refund, but like I already said, I sincerely expect nothing from you. At this point $85.50 feels like an insult for how much time I've spent trying to hunt you down just to get what I paid for ten months ago. If sending a refund would make YOU feel better, then go for it - but don't think you're doing me a favor.

Paul,

I think Pam is right and that you should accept a refund.
However, the refund should be for all ten cages less what you got through your sale of the eight because your set was never completed.

You bought a set of ten and finally sold what you had when it was clear you would not have your set. In addition, you stated that several of the cages you DID get were sub par with detaching hinges.

You are owed more than two cages worth, and in my opinion should insist on it and accept it when given.

 

[Jim O]

Paul,

Why didn't you just ask on TRR? If he wants to give yo a refund, just take it. Why bother posting this, if your just out to try and hurt his business. I don't know you or him, but your making yourself look bad, by not excepting his offer. Things happen in business and I don't mean to make light of what looks like bad customer service, but It doesn't seem to be the norm. for jungle habitats. Just my opinion....Atleast your getting it resolved...

While I agree that things happen, it took Paul's post here to get it resolved, or at least to get his attention. I would also have posted Alan's response and all follow up. It will give potential customers some indication of how Alan handles foul-ups. The order was the first of June and paid in full. At that point Alan was talking about a 10 day turn around on the entire order. 15 days later he was doing the doors...the eight were shipped at separate times in August (more than two months after the order was placed) meaning two days out of work potentially as a signature is required as indicated in the email. The last two were allegedly shipped later but oddly Paul never got a shipping notification and the shipment was being "traced". It all sounds like a lot of excuses to me.

It's clear that this has not been the norm for Alan from the little I was able to find here (his personal vendetta with Rich notwithstanding) but also it is clear that he has totally dropped the ball on this order by delivering an incomplete, substandard order and failing to communicate or respond for months at a time. Paul has been way more than patient and is 110% justified in bringing this here and following it through.

 

[JungleHabitats]

Paul

As i stated there was no excuse for the dropping your order as it was handled I have apologized and will do so again here , As a mater of fact I also have a few order that have been delayed this Year , I have sent out gift vouchers to them to use as they wish or sell what ever they may wish to do with them they may do . You I am sending you a refund Monday via US Postal Money Order , You will be getting a replacement kube for the one the hinges failed on .So you will be getting your money back and a extra Kube these will be shipped Monday afternoon via FedEx I will post the tracking here so EVERYONE knows whats going on I have nothing to hide,

Lucille he is getting his refund as per what he paid for and getting a replacement kube as per the one the hinged failed on ( for what ever reason it was hes being compensated for that )


You will also find the hatchling rack in it as well for geckos

Have a good evening
Alan

 

[Oak Hill Reptiles]

Lets see if you follow through..

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Lets see if you follow through..

I don't think Alan will have any problems following through. He's always done right by me and many others.

 

[Oak Hill Reptiles]

I don't think Alan will have any problems following through. He's always done right by me and many others.

I understand that, and I apologize if I came off as too rough, but you have to understand I always find myself a little leery when I see things like this.

 

[JungleHabitats]

I just realized Monday Is Easter Monday , so if the Post office is closed and my Bank is closed it will be Tuesday on the refund as I wont be able to send any other method ( I dont use paper checks) Just wanted to make that clear as I dont really keep track them.
Regards
Alan

 

[Jim O]

I understand that, and I apologize if I came off as too rough, but you have to understand I always find myself a little leery when I see things like this.

A little cynical for your age (16), don't you think?


Alan, thanks for coming here and taking responsibility. You don't use paper checks? In this day and age it's hard to imagine anyone without a checking account but so be it. BTW, Monday is NOT a postal holiday nor is it a bank holiday. See for yourself at http://www.usps.com/communications/newsroom/calendar/federalholidays.htm and at http://www.frbservices.org/HomePage/Holidays.html.

 

[JungleHabitats]

Jim

A little cynical for your age (16), don't you think?


Alan, thanks for coming here and taking responsibility. You don't use paper checks? In this day and age it's hard to imagine anyone without a checking account but so be it. BTW, Monday is NOT a postal holiday nor is it a bank holiday. See for yourself at http://www.usps.com/communications/newsroom/calendar/federalholidays.htm and at http://www.frbservices.org/HomePage/Holidays.html.

Believe it or not I have not touched a check in over 8 yrs , I did not say i dont have a checking account lol I just no longer use pay pal after being screwed for over $1400 by them after using them flawless for 4 yrs .. So i WONT use paypal for a payment method . I now use Google checkout bu unfortunately i cant see where i cant just out of the blue send money to someone in that as it a a direct payment gateway i think.

I always take responsibility for my actions , and with this I will be back with tracking info for Paul Monday and if the court so wishes ill even scan the MO lol

Again Paul Im sorry for the inconvenience thats been caused you will have whats yours this week
regards'
Alan

 

[PaulSage]

Paul,

Why didn't you just ask on TRR? If he wants to give yo a refund, just take it.

Are you serious? Why would I ask on TRR? I've been keeping the conversation private since the order was placed, and look how far that's gotten me!

Why bother posting this, if your just out to try and hurt his business.

I don't understand this sentence/question. If letting other people know that for ten months I've been fed excuses and haven't received what I paid for hurts Alan's business, that's his own doing. If I was "just out to try and hurt his business" then it would only make sense to post this, wouldn't it?

I don't know you or him, but your making yourself look bad, by not excepting his offer.

How does it make me look bad? I gave up after waiting ten months. Is that such an awful thing to do? I wrote the purchase off as a loss. Lots of people and businesses do that everyday - why does it make me look bad?

 

[Oak Hill Reptiles]

A little cynical for your age (16), don't you think?


Alan, thanks for coming here and taking responsibility. You don't use paper checks? In this day and age it's hard to imagine anyone without a checking account but so be it. BTW, Monday is NOT a postal holiday nor is it a bank holiday. See for yourself at http://www.usps.com/communications/newsroom/calendar/federalholidays.htm and at http://www.frbservices.org/HomePage/Holidays.html.

I don't think my age should play any role in what others think of me or be indicative of my personality or comments on the BOI. I have already apologized for my remarks and should hope that you would treat me with the respect that you show for any other member on this forum, regardless of age.

 

[Lucille]

If letting other people know that for ten months I've been fed excuses and haven't received what I paid for hurts Alan's business, that's his own doing.

Exactly. You set out clearly and dispassionately what occurred. You have not started flailing around and calling names, you merely asked for what you paid for.

Alan said, above "I always take responsibility for my actions". Perhaps so, but in my mind, there is no question that the thread you started here was an appropriate use of this forum and I think it brought appropriate results after you patiently waited for ten months. You will hopefully receive your refund, but those who come after you and are thinking of ordering cages will receive benefits from this thread as well.

 

[LadyViper]

Are you serious? Why would I ask on TRR? I've been keeping the conversation private since the order was placed, and look how far that's gotten me!

Well, you made a point of saying you had to track him down for twn months, why not just inquire where you know he his?? that's all I meant by that.
*************************************************


How does it make me look bad? I gave up after waiting ten months. Is that such an awful thing to do? I wrote the purchase off as a loss. Lots of people and businesses do that everyday - why does it make me look bad?

No, you didn't just write it off because you posted it here on the BOI, look you had that right. I am only saying he has done everything..offered refund, publicly and humbly apolized..what more could he do? Take his refund, and let it go. Your posts sound so angry for someone who claims they just wrote off.
The guy seems to have a good track record, mistakes happen. Let him fix it.