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Just a follow up on the use of different vitamin supplements.

A

A&M Gecko

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Every time I find a good debate I always try to follow up on it and try with experience to see the outcome. We had a debate on vitamins enhancing color and we were talking about the one I use as well (Vionate). I am growing up a SHT baby with the use of cricket and reptical/vitamin only, instead of using mealworms and Vionate. This is a PIC of the gecko I am growing up and his color are equally bright as my other prime bloodlines at the same age. I will try to keep you updated on this girl (only about 5 weeks old now) and maybe take her to Daytona to sell her there. She will make someone happy for sure. The PIC was taken outside with no flash.
Regards Alberto & Mary
 

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That's a nice gecko Alberto. Here is an email I received from a lady yesterday:

hi kelli, I have geckos about 2 months old when I noticed some were crawling on their bellies upon closer examination the lower extremities have turned to "Jelly" is this a bone disease? Can I do anything for them, it effects both males and females. I feed all geckoes meal worms with vionate sprinkled on top as supplement.
Click to expand...

I didn't want to include her name in the email, but I just want people to be aware that as far as I am concerned, Vionate alone might cause problems like this, at least in the case of growing hatchlings and juveniles.

Use Rep Cal or another pure calcium supplement. IMHO.
 
great looking gecko Alberto, I wonder about just mixing all the stuff i have together in equal parts, and using it that way
 
Hi Kelli
I do not know what some people do but I can assure you that I never had something like that happening to me. Did the lady take the geckos to have them examined to find out what the cause was? I know as well that we can overdose geckos with vitamin and I think it is really important to know how we use it and have the correct balance. Kind of knowing how to house the leos on sand, some people do it with no problems and other with a lot of problems. Kelli, I have to add that I never had a better percentage of eggs hatching and the babies been all healthy with no problem to their eye, bone or any of the most common problems we have with wrong caring of breeding females. I really cannot find anything wrong with it in any way as of now. I will keep you informed and I may make a mix of the Vionate and reptical/vitamin in the future.
Alberto
 
Alberto-

Overdosing on vitamins does not cause metabolic bone disease. That is caused by insufficient calcium supplementation. I am not saying your way is right or wrong, I am just saying that my opinion is that hatchling and juvenile leopard geckos should be supplemented with calcium at every feeding. If your feeder bugs are gutloaded properly there is really no need to offer vitamins but once or twice a month. In reality, if feeders are being gutloaded really well, you do not even need to supplement with vitamins, but I still do a couple times a month, I figure it cannot hurt :)

And I do know what you mean about some people having problems and some not, with regard to sand etc!
 
Maybe the heat rock or whatever they chose to use was to hot and it burned them . I had that happen to a hogg island boa and it cooked him good .
 
How bout that Camera Tip.

Well I use Repti-Cal and couple times a month I mix in the Herptivite Blue label in with the calcium and use this as a supplement. As far as gutloading I also use Collared Greens and Mustard greens and Carrots. The greens being very high in Calcium(need to start growing some myself since my beardies are also raised on this). Last night I was talking to Chris Newsom on the phone and he brought up a valid concern when it comes to Vitamin A. Although we can handle and process it and Beta Carotene it can build up to toxic levels in our little four legged friends. Now when it comes to natural Vitamin A carrots are full of Beta Carotene. I think I will stick to my natural Gutload and Repti-Cal. OH yeah once again Like that Camera Technique there Albert!!! ;)
 
Overdosing on vitamins does not cause metabolic bone disease. That is caused by insufficient calcium supplementation.

Maybe she did not use enough then?

.[
I am not saying your way is right or wrong, I am just saying that my opinion is that hatchling and juvenile leopard geckos should be supplemented with calcium at every feeding. If your feeder bugs are gutloaded properly there is really no need to offer vitamins but once or twice a month. In reality, if feeders are being gutloaded really well, you do not even need to supplement with vitamins, but I still do a couple times a month, I figure it cannot hurt :)
Click to expand...

Kelli this is not about me being right or wrong, we all have a different opinion and experience regarding leos and healthy debates are only good to gain more knowledge about them. In my case I had 0 case of bone disease so far in the last 2 years of my breeding using Vionate and that is not about 10 geckos. To add to this, I had a lot of problem using cricket and reptical/vitamin in my first years of breeding but in my opinion is because I did not know what I was doing.
 
Maybe she did not use enoughf then?
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That's possible. I dunno man I just don't feel it's worth the risk, to ME. I wish I felt differently because Vionate is dirt cheap, and it would save me a ton of money every year if I used it rather than the other stuff. I don;t doubt that Alberto has beuatiful geckos whether Vionated or not, and I for one feel there is nothing wrong with using a supplement that makes your geckos look brighter (I'm not saying that's why anyone would use Vionate!). I would use it too if I thought it was as good for my geckos as RepCal/proper gutloading of feeders/herptivite.

Whew, ok, back to my animal work. I want to get finished by this evening so I can go herping.
 
A&M Gecko said:
Overdosing on vitamins does not cause metabolic bone disease. That is caused by insufficient calcium supplementation.
Click to expand...

Incorrect assumption. Too much phosphorus inhibits the absorption of calcium.
 
[/BOverdosing on vitamins does not cause metabolic bone disease. That is caused by insufficient calcium supplementation.]


Maybe she did not use enough then?



Kelli this is not about me being right or wrong, we all have a different opinion and experience regarding leos and healthy debates are only good to gain more knowledge about them. In my case I had 0 case of bone disease so far in the last 2 years of my breeding using Vionate and that is not about 10 geckos. To add to this, I had a lot of problem using cricket and reptical/vitamin in my first years of breeding but in my opinion is because I did not know what I was doing.
 
Sorry about not using the quote option properly I have been trying to learn, but so far have not been successful. I will try and use the quote option in my threads so as not to keep confusing you all.:( ;)
 
Alberto, the quote function (as well as bold, italic, underline) is not too difficult once you grasp the concept. Basically you are telling the software how to display a certain selection of text.



[ quote ] put this in
quotes
Click to expand...
[ / quote]

[ b ] make this bold [ / b ]

[ i ] make this italic [ / i ]

You have to type just like that but without any of the spaces inside the brackets [ ] and remember to use the beginning and ending command.
 
Steven-

Of course you are correct about too much phosphorus, I was speaking in the context of Viatmins A, B, D3 etc. The fact that too much phosphorus is not good I was thinking of as a "given". This is why we use phosphorus free calcium supplements!

I would say in most cases of mbd the cause is lack of calcium, not too much phosphorus but I could be wrong.

Here are the ingredients of Vionate, just FYI:

degermed corn meal; dibasic calcium phosphate; calcium carbonate; salt; ferrous carbonate; magnesium oxide; niacin; calcium pantothenate; riboflavin; BHT as a preservative; di-atocopheryl acetate; vitamin A palmitate; thiamine nononitrate; manganous oxide; cupric sulfate; calcium iodate; pyridoxine hydrochloride; cobalt carbonate; folic acid; D-activated animal sterol (source of Vitamin D3); cyanocobalamin (source of Vitamin B12)

Each Kg contains:

Vitamin A:...220,000 I.U.
Vitamin D3:...22,000 I.U.
Vitamin D3:...22,000 I.U.
Thiamine B1:...36.9 mg
Riboflavin B2:..79.2 mg
Vitamin B6:...9.98 mg
Vitamin B12:..0.15 mg
Calcium Pantothenate:..110.0 mg
Niacin:...275.0 mg
Folic Acid:...2.2 mg
Choline Chloride:...5.72 mg
Ascorbic Acid:...4,494.8 mg
Vitamin E:..119.9 I.U.
Calcium (Ca):...(MIN)9.5% 94,802.4 mg
Calcium (Ca):...(MAX)11.4% 113762 mg
Phosphorous:.. 4.79% 47,828 mg
Salt:.. (MIN).5% 4,994 mg
Salt:.. (MAX)1.5% 14,982 mg
Iodine:..0.0022% 22 mg
Iron:..0.055% 550 mg
Cobalt:..0.00055% 5.5 mg
Copper:..0.0055% 55 mg
Magnesium:..0.0424% 423.06 mg
Manganese:..0.0076% 75.68 mg
 
And here are the ingredients of Rep Cal w/D3:

calcium carbonate and Vitamin D3 supplement

And the ingredients of Herptivite:

Oh never mind I can't find a site that lists the ingredients and I do not have time to type it all out LOL.

Don't worry about the quoting Alberto, I can understand what you are saying just fine and dandy:)
 
Smarty pants ;p

You never did send me those papers on insect nutritional value that you promised me almost a year ago ;)
 
Hey, you're the one that said phosphorus was a vitamin! I just told you what it really is, a mineral! Vitamins and minerals are 2 different things! LOL

You never did send me those papers on insect nutritional value that you promised me almost a year ago
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I wish I could find them for you! You would laugh if you could see the back half of our garage right now, there are at 4 or 5 filing cabinets FULL of reprints regarding reptiles, and they are in no particular order. And now I cannot even get to the filing cabinets or half of our herp library of books and magazines because we have a huge freedom breeder type rodent rack that blocks me from getting to them! Grr, I hate the rodents, or Frodents as I call them. And that F doesn't stand for frozen either.
 
Hey Frodents = free pinks!!!

Come on now nothing beats free pinks!!!
 
Come on now nothing beats free pinks!!!
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Yeah, but they are RAT pinks! Too big for my leos :-(

When we get that new rack set up (the one blocking my route to the books), I am going to set up several mouse colonies. I may as well participate in the Frodent raising too.
 
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