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Just curious about cutting eggs

Helenthereef

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I'll apologise in advance for my ignorance - I'm a boa person and don't know much (anything) about egg layers. :shrug01:

I'm seeing a lot of (extremely cute) pics of baby snakes inside cut eggs, and I'm curious, please indulge me....

How do you decide when it's the right time to cut?

How long do they normally take to emerge after they have been cut?

Are they still developing at that time?

Do they ever dry out / are there any risks to cutting?

I'm ignorant but really interested - any time taken to answer most appreciated!
 
The general rule is anything past day 52 is ok. You will find some that cut much earlier and again those who cut later or even after the first baby pips on its own. I personally use the last. As far as when they emerge really depends on when you cut. The earlier that you cut, your risks get greater and and more to worry about.
I'll give you the suggestion that I wish someone had given me. If you want to cut, start after the first baby pips. Do this for a few times then gradually push your cut earlier. Say day 57 next time, then 55 and then 52 as your confidence and experience increases. You will get accustomed as to what to expect instead of jumping in at day 52, watching the film start to growon the surface, checking every couple hours to make sure they are still moving, etc, etc and start panicing.
hope this helps.
 
I know people aren't going to like my opinion of this, but hey, that isn't exactly unusual.

I do not cut until the first one pips, and even then, I only cut small windows (and I try not to cut any blood vessels or anything like that).

The only reason to cut eggs early is to satisfy our own selfish curiosity--it does nothing to help the baby snake, and so many times, it harms the snake. I'm sure it can be done carefully so that risk to the baby is minimal, but it will never be zero. How many babies have been lost just this year (and just on this site) due to cutting too early and/or cutting poorly? Even one is too many, if for no other reason than it is completely preventable.

I know a lot of people that say Day 50 or later is fine, but what if the clutch wouldn't've normally hatched until Day 60 or maybe even later? Ten days out of eight weeks is a significant amount of time. Odds are there won't be issues, but again, is a baby worth my inability to wait a few more days? No.
 
Krystal I completely agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm tempted to cut early but I wait until the first one pips. I know when you are waiting to see if you have a combo you have waited years to make, it can be hard to be patient. I would rather wait to find out what I have then jeopardize that combo that I've waited so long for. Guess I'm just a chicken.
 
I have to watch my wife at day 50 like a hawk. The moment I turn my head most of the time them suckers will be slit without a second thought. I do get impatient at times, but I agree with the above. I like to wait until the first one pips, but most of the time my misses gets to them before that even happens.
 
How many babies have been lost just this year (and just on this site) due to cutting too early and/or cutting poorly?
While I'm not disagreeing with your post as a whole, I want to address this one question...and I'll start with a question of my own: How many babies have been lost just this year (and just on this site) despite not being cut?

Speaking for myself, I cut 3 - well, unless you count the Savu eggs that I cut at day 65 because they hadn't even dented, and the eggs were candling green....but all of those lived, quite possibly because I cut them - and, yes, all 3 of those babies died. BUT, so did every baby in the 7 egg clutch laid on the same day as those, and they slit the eggs themselves; and every baby in the 7 egg clutch that was about 10-14 days from hatching; another 6 egg clutch due about the same time; a 12 egg clutch (not BP) that was dented and should have started pipping within 2 days; and a 14 egg clutch that was probably 3 weeks from hatching. All of those babies were - I'm assuming - lost within a 36 hr period, due to something that transpired.
I'll admit that it's a fairly big assumption, but I have my reasons...those reasons being the obvious deaths of the 3 eggs I cut, and the 7 that had self pipped, the suspected death of the other 7 egg clutch (because after noting that the others were dead, I candled them and saw no movement...but I don't know for a fact that they were dead at that point). Those 7, and all the other unhatched eggs in the incubator started to change color and show clear signs that the babies were dead about 4-5 days later.

Perhaps my cutting those 3 eggs ultimately did them in - obviously, I can't deny that possibility. But...and this is a serious question...could that act have somehow been related to all the others dying? Certainly seems like a stretch, but I'm open to theories.
 
If you wanna cut, just wait til they are dented and past day 55 is my suggestion. Im sure waiting is better for them though unless your eggs get rather dry like mine do.
 
How many babies have been lost just this year (and just on this site) due to cutting too early and/or cutting poorly?

Six just from my own ineptitude. Because I wanted to know if I had spiders, pastels, or albinos a few days early. I will never cut another clutch before they start pipping again.
 
I personally don't cut eggs myself unless I think there might be a problem with the egg. If I candle and don't see movement, I cut to determine if the baby is OK. Otherwise, I let nature take it's course. I've tried candling in the past to see if I can tell if I have morphs, but then again, so far I've only produced single-gene morphs, so those are fairly easy to tell if if you've got normals or morphs (at least with spiders). I know some will disagree with me, but they way I see it is: babies hatch naturally in the wild without assistance, and there's no reason why they shouldn't do so in captivity as well. Granted, I have not yet lost any babies due to not cutting, so if that ever happens to me, I may very well change my tune. ;)

As far as cutting goes, though, if you prefer to do it, you might want to candle them as you cut the first time, so as to avoid bloods vessels. Also, make sure you don't break the sac around the baby; if you break it and the baby isn't yet ready to breathe on its own, it will kill it. To avoid breaking the sac when cutting, make sure to pinch the top of the egg and pull up slightly before cutting, and aim the ends of your scissors up and away from the baby.
 
While I'm not disagreeing with your post as a whole, I want to address this one question...and I'll start with a question of my own: How many babies have been lost just this year (and just on this site) despite not being cut?

Speaking for myself, I cut 3 - well, unless you count the Savu eggs that I cut at day 65 because they hadn't even dented, and the eggs were candling green....but all of those lived, quite possibly because I cut them - and, yes, all 3 of those babies died. BUT, so did every baby in the 7 egg clutch laid on the same day as those, and they slit the eggs themselves; and every baby in the 7 egg clutch that was about 10-14 days from hatching; another 6 egg clutch due about the same time; a 12 egg clutch (not BP) that was dented and should have started pipping within 2 days; and a 14 egg clutch that was probably 3 weeks from hatching. All of those babies were - I'm assuming - lost within a 36 hr period, due to something that transpired.
I'll admit that it's a fairly big assumption, but I have my reasons...those reasons being the obvious deaths of the 3 eggs I cut, and the 7 that had self pipped, the suspected death of the other 7 egg clutch (because after noting that the others were dead, I candled them and saw no movement...but I don't know for a fact that they were dead at that point). Those 7, and all the other unhatched eggs in the incubator started to change color and show clear signs that the babies were dead about 4-5 days later.

Perhaps my cutting those 3 eggs ultimately did them in - obviously, I can't deny that possibility. But...and this is a serious question...could that act have somehow been related to all the others dying? Certainly seems like a stretch, but I'm open to theories.

First of all, I apologize if my comment sounded like I was pointing fingers at people. That wasn't my intent--I just wanted to make a point. (For the record, I had no idea about your clutches, Harald.)

I have no problem with cutting an egg or two if something seems wrong. No issue with that at all. And yes, it's a good point: what about those who die even if they aren't cut (or because they aren't cut)?

There are two ways to answer this. One is that perhaps they were supposed to die for one reason or another. It's entirely possible that there was something wrong with them--genetically or otherwise. For example, perhaps the snakes that are unable to slit the egg and drown have some kind of genetic problem that manifests this way. Perhaps this is a way to cleanse the gene pool in wild pythons? I don't know. I spoke with a friend on this matter once, and she was conflicted because she understood the desire to save a snake that might not survive if someone doesn't intervene, but there's also the view that perhaps if the baby can't get out, it shouldn't. It's kind of a hard line approach, but it's a point that can't be completely ignored.

The other way of looking at it (and this is what I tend toward) is that I'd rather a snake die because I didn't cut it than because I did. This is why I do still cut the other eggs after the first one has pipped: I would feel absolutely terrible if a baby died and I could have saved it by cutting. Yes, a part of me still wonders if there's some reason the baby was supposed to die, but I'd rather give the snake a chance and see how it goes from there. But that's just based on personal preference.

Above all, though, if a snake dies because I didn't cut it, that's really not my fault, no matter how guilty I'd feel about it. (Yes, it could be my fault from an incubator problem or something similar, but that's a different issue.)

It's also difficult, as you mention, to prove whether cutting would save babies in certain circumstances.

As for your final question, I have no idea why cutting those three eggs would've resulted in the deaths of the others, and it seems highly unlikely to me. Other than maybe an incubator issue of some sort, I have no idea what would cause that. It could easily be something out of your control...which makes it really frustrating. :-(
 
This is only semi-related, but this is probably the best place for it....

Something I plan to research in the future (which will greatly help this issue, I think) is how temperature relates to incubation time. I think they're inversely proportional, but I don't know just how sensitive the incubation time is to differences in temperature. Does incubating at 88 degrees instead of 89 tack on an extra day or two or is one degree mostly inconsequential? I'm going to buy some sensors that will take temperature measurements at least every hour to try to get as accurate a result as I possibly can, and I'll be sure to post the results here once I have some.

The thing is, this would greatly help us breeders figure out not only when it would be the most safe to cut (for those who insist) but also when we should start worrying that something might be wrong (and thus require cutting). If we have a better idea of when the babies are most likely to hatch, fewer babies will be lost.

If anyone has any additional ideas along this line, please let me know!
 
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I incubated at 87 this year and still cut at day 52 on all my clutches. All my babies crawled out at Day 57 and 58 with fully absorbed yolks and are fatter than the babies I incubated at 89 in the past years.

Never have had a problem cutting eggs. I've personally seen drowned babies (pinstripes at that) in the egg that were unable to pip from a breeder friend of mine, and it's was heartbreaking enough to see, that it made my decision to always cut my eggs a no brainer.
 
I cut when they start to pip. So far I haven't had a problem, but I have only had 10 or so clutches of ball pythons and 2 clutches of jungle carpet pythons. This would be a good poll question. :) My bet is most people cut when they start pipping. Take care.
Dennis
 
Because I maternally incubate, cutting eggs is really not an option for me regardless of how curious I may be about what's growing inside. I only cut if there appears to be a problem (unpipped eggs days after siblings have all pipped, for instance) or the potential for a problem exists. I cut one egg this year because it caved early on and never plumped back out (primarily because the mom that was brooding the clutch insisted on using that egg as a head rest). I was worried that with limited growing room the baby might be in trouble and when I cut the egg, I found the baby inside had a twisted umbilicus.
 
My point wasn't entirely about my situation, though it made a good example. A lot of people had lousy luck this year...and I don't know that cutting had anything to do with any of them. This seems to happen periodically - even with "the pros" - and it's something we have to be prepared to deal with as breeders.
I'm not saying to shrug it off as just one of those things - but there are times that we have to accept that things happen no matter how ideally we try to do things.

In my case - I was using the same incubators I've been using for several years. After seeing the dead babies, I checked temps - there had been less than a half degree fluctuation since I'd reset the thermometers...and that was associated with my opening the incubator. 3 of the egg boxes hadn't been moved since they were placed in the incubator.
I don't believe my cutting those 3 eggs had anything to do with them dying (I probably would blame myself, if all the others hadn't died, as well)...and, without a good explanation, I'm not likely to think it had anything to do with the deaths of all the other babies.
I've ruled out most things I can think of, and I'm still at a loss. Am I upset - yes. Disappointed - yes. Confused - absolutely. Guilty of killing them by cutting - I don't think so.
 
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