Bad Guy Justin Miller, AKA Blue Pumilio

[LauraB]

Frankly, what happens on DB; whatever messed up rules and procedures DB puts in place; whatever screwed up censorship rules regarding negative feedback DB may have is all irrelevant to the original thread posted way back in July!

I'm not a member of DB, never even go there (and don't think I would after reading this thread) ... but it seems this thread has gotten way off-topic.

Back in July, Justin Ho purchased a female T. yangi that was represented as healthy. The photo on Justin's website showed a beautiful, well cared for animal.

No, it was not a high dollar purchase, but what Justin received was not the animal represented nor what Justin's customer expected.

DB nor it's loyal members/mods have nothing to do with this transaction. Period.

Where is Justin in this conversation? What has Justin done to satisfy his customer or to explain what appears to be the poor condition of this animal?

With all due respect, I don't want to hear from loyal members/mods from DB about their rules & procedures, even if some may present themselves respectfully and articulately.

I want to hear from Justin. He has, in fact, been a member here since 2002.

 

[LauraB]

And for the record DB requires feedback both positive and negative to be approved by a mod before it is posted as record. We have all seen plenty of BOI threads where 3 or 4 posts in the person that created says...oh this is a mistake, I don't want a bad guy thread on this person, yet it is here. DB try's to review this feedback and if something doesn't smell right, they require further info, they will also go to the person and try and get them to make it right. .

For the record, Fauna allows feedback, both positive and negative, of any vendor or buyer. No approval of any mod nor "investigation" is required prior to a member posting. No censorship. No proof or evidence is strictly required in keeping with BOI rules, but usually proof is requested by members.

It's not rocket science for members/readers here to ascertain and judge for themselves who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, even if it takes more than 3 or 4 posts to determine same. If your members/readers can determine that after 3 or 4 posts, after your DB official investigation, of course, then more power to you.

And just for the record, Fauna BOI posts are not ever removed or deleted so readers are given the opportunity to assess and come to their own conclusions about a vendor or buyer. Again, not "protected" or censored by the "higher-ups". Fauna's readers are intelligent enough to make their own decisions, and given the opportunity to do so. Even if it takes more than 3 or 4 posts.

And I won't go off-topic again, even though I yacked about off-topic. I got enough hits already. Brevity ain't my strong suit.

 

[kerrek]

Frankly, what happens on DB; whatever messed up rules and procedures DB puts in place; whatever screwed up censorship rules regarding negative feedback DB may have is all irrelevant to the original thread posted way back in July!

I'm not a member of DB, never even go there (and don't think I would after reading this thread) ... but it seems this thread has gotten way off-topic.

Back in July, Justin Ho purchased a female T. yangi that was represented as healthy. The photo on Justin's website showed a beautiful, well cared for animal.

No, it was not a high dollar purchase, but what Justin received was not the animal represented nor what Justin's customer expected.

DB nor it's loyal members/mods have nothing to do with this transaction. Period.

Where is Justin in this conversation? What has Justin done to satisfy his customer or to explain what appears to be the poor condition of this animal?

With all due respect, I don't want to hear from loyal members/mods from DB about their rules & procedures, even if some may present themselves respectfully and articulately.

I want to hear from Justin. He has, in fact, been a member here since 2002.

This is what he said about it on Dart Den



Re: BluePumilio (Justin Miller) - All Feedback
by BluePumilio » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:38 pm

I had your email, I had no way of knowing if that was the email you use for Paypal. I actually only have one email from you in my gmail, so unless I erased something.


Wait...you mean I tried to send the shipment? What...crazy talk.

That person on fauna got his salamanders and then complained the female was off color (all females are that color, they are sexually dimorphic) and that she has regrown fingertips (salamander can regrow body parts). I'm sorry but those were healthy salamanders at a good price for that species, too. You can't make everyone happy, especially when they are misinformed.

I'm not about to post any of my permits/licenses, that's ridiculous. You can claim I don't have a DL either, I shouldn't have to prove every little things you said wrong.

You decided to go through the bank to get your cash back. It'll still come out of my account.

Doesn't seem real concerned.

 

[jasper408]

This is what he said about it on Dart Den



Re: BluePumilio (Justin Miller) - All Feedback
by BluePumilio » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:38 pm

I had your email, I had no way of knowing if that was the email you use for Paypal. I actually only have one email from you in my gmail, so unless I erased something.


Wait...you mean I tried to send the shipment? What...crazy talk.

That person on fauna got his salamanders and then complained the female was off color (all females are that color, they are sexually dimorphic) and that she has regrown fingertips (salamander can regrow body parts). I'm sorry but those were healthy salamanders at a good price for that species, too. You can't make everyone happy, especially when they are misinformed.

I'm not about to post any of my permits/licenses, that's ridiculous. You can claim I don't have a DL either, I shouldn't have to prove every little things you said wrong.

You decided to go through the bank to get your cash back. It'll still come out of my account.

Doesn't seem real concerned.

1. All females are not that color. Google images will quickly disprove that. http://www.caudata.org/forum/attach...-imageuploadedbytapatalk1361980682.795367.jpg Note the volcano shaped cloaca, definitive proof that it is indeed female.

2. The majority were missing, not regrown. A hind leg also had 6 toes, instead of 5. That could either be a healing mishap, or a genetic issue.

3. It's easy fooling people about missing digits and coloration, but there's a reason why he didn't mention the jaw. Can't trick someone into thinking that's normal.

4. His are priced at 40 each. I won't name specific sellers, but some searching online finds them cheaper. Just FYI, if you were interested in the species but didn't want to purchase from him.

 

[markpulawski]

Frankly, what happens on DB; whatever messed up rules and procedures DB puts in place; whatever screwed up censorship rules regarding negative feedback DB may have is all irrelevant to the original thread posted way back in July!

I'm not a member of DB, never even go there (and don't think I would after reading this thread) ... but it seems this thread has gotten way off-topic.

Back in July, Justin Ho purchased a female T. yangi that was represented as healthy. The photo on Justin's website showed a beautiful, well cared for animal.

No, it was not a high dollar purchase, but what Justin received was not the animal represented nor what Justin's customer expected.

DB nor it's loyal members/mods have nothing to do with this transaction. Period.

Where is Justin in this conversation? What has Justin done to satisfy his customer or to explain what appears to be the poor condition of this animal?

With all due respect, I don't want to hear from loyal members/mods from DB about their rules & procedures, even if some may present themselves respectfully and articulately.

I want to hear from Justin. He has, in fact, been a member here since 2002.

I agree with this completely, DB has their rules like them or not no one is forced to go there or stay there and the reference to it should have been merely a footnote. I too want to see Justin come here and post about Jasper's issue, in the past I have seen him fix these type of complaints, if he does not it will be very disappointing.

 

[Lucille]

DB nor it's loyal members/mods have nothing to do with this transaction.

With all due respect, Laura, I disagree. A mod from DB has come here and invited the OP to go over there, where the mod will 'look into' any issues. That involvement could affect the outcome of the transaction one way or another.

If the OP would like to contact me on DB - I'll be happy to help him any way I can. As I mentioned - I looked into two other people.

I am here mainly to address ScottR's post but if the OP would like to PM me on Dendroboard I'll happily look into any issue he had.

Have a good evening.

s

But is that involvement better than the process here?

The problem with these 'back room deals' is that others, including future buyers, are left out in the cold. You are inviting the OP to talk to you yet saying that he is expressly not allowed to post the content of that conversation as per your rules.

That means that it is possible that something might be done (or might not) but that others who might save themselves money and aggravation by hearing about all of this and judging for themselves whether they want to do business with Justin will not have that information exchanged in this secret meeting.

That makes this system elitist. Instead of each side presenting and posting information and allowing readers to decide as is done here, the 'secret meeting' process is in effect saying that readers don't have enough smarts to decide for themselves, that the Dendroboard mods will decide for them.

I myself think that readers here have both the intelligence and the incentive to read carefully and choose what is in their own best interests as far as deciding who to do business with.

For the record, Fauna allows feedback, both positive and negative, of any vendor or buyer. No approval of any mod nor "investigation" is required prior to a member posting. No censorship. No proof or evidence is strictly required in keeping with BOI rules, but usually proof is requested by members.

It's not rocket science for members/readers here to ascertain and judge for themselves who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, even if it takes more than 3 or 4 posts to determine same. If your members/readers can determine that after 3 or 4 posts, after your DB official investigation, of course, then more power to you.

And just for the record, Fauna BOI posts are not ever removed or deleted so readers are given the opportunity to assess and come to their own conclusions about a vendor or buyer. Again, not "protected" or censored by the "higher-ups". Fauna's readers are intelligent enough to make their own decisions, and given the opportunity to do so. Even if it takes more than 3 or 4 posts.

I believe that Fauna is a better venue for the OP, because the open process here allows readers to judge for themselves what they think of each party.

I want to hear from Justin. He has, in fact, been a member here since 2002.

I would like to see him respond as well.

 

[markpulawski]

This is no doubt a better place for the OP to post his issues, why put a newt problem on a dart frog forum.
Jasper I have been told you were offered a free female and then 2 free females if you pay for the shipping and that offer is still in place, why have you not accepted this offer? Would everyone not agree that 2 free females is adequate compensation for someone trying to make up for this problem?
Scott R coming here to complain about someone having a problem is the 3rd party info I was referring to, is it not BOI policy to not have 3rd party complaints without naming that party or the problem they had?
I like the BOI, I also like DB, they are different and I don't have a problem with either that I can't live with.

 

[kerrek]

This is no doubt a better place for the OP to post his issues, why put a newt problem on a dart frog forum.
Jasper I have been told you were offered a free female and then 2 free females if you pay for the shipping and that offer is still in place, why have you not accepted this offer? Would everyone not agree that 2 free females is adequate compensation for someone trying to make up for this problem?
Scott R coming here to complain about someone having a problem is the 3rd party info I was referring to, is it not BOI policy to not have 3rd party complaints without naming that party or the problem they had?
I like the BOI, I also like DB, they are different and I don't have a problem with either that I can't live with.

Why should he have to pay shipping when he was sent a "defective" animal? Next day air is usually @ $40-60 so he's going to be out as much as if he paid for the replacement.

 

[markpulawski]

2 free females would mean he comes out whole and even with the 2nd shipping, that is a break even scenario and seems a reasonable outcome.

 

[jasper408]

I do not know what to do in this situation. He did email me on the 30th of August, after I suppose pressures from people at DB. He is not apologetic in the slightest, and as indicated earlier, puts any blame on me and continues to claim that they were healthy. He also threatened to cease contact with me if I were to continue posting in this thread.

As of now, I am sick of this individual and I do not wish to further correspond with him. His half-hearted attempts at a resolution have neither the good-will, nor the monetary compensation necessary for a proper conclusion, for which either would have been acceptable.

He did offer two females as of 6:22 AM this morning, but I can not accept. His method of accepting payment is through Debit/Credit card, and I do not wish to send him my address again(Simply put, I do not trust him). I also feel as if he is trying to palm off the females onto me, since he is now unable to sell them due to market saturation, and even possibly because of this thread. If what he sent me was what he considered healthy, how should I expect him to take care of his properly? It is clear that what he sells are products, and not living, breathing animals.

There are so many reasons why I should not deal with this individual, yet I also wish to wash my hands of this entire situation. I suppose a partial refund would be the best/easiest course of action. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I think I removed the language in the following emails.

Jasper H <[email protected]>
Jul 5

to Justin
Justin,

I would normally give the benefit of the doubt(being busy), but you have been consistently updating your Facebook page without taking the few minutes to respond to my email.

It baffles me that someone would risk their reputation over 40 bucks, especially when it is such an open and close case like this. I do not want any trouble, but there is no way anyone would be happy with what you palmed off to me. It has been 21 days since you have been notified of the problem, and it's starting to like a stall tactic. I suppose it has come to this now: If a proper response is not garnered by the end of Monday (7/8), I will be posting about my experience and opening a claim.

I apologize if you are innocent in all of this. I have not had to do this ever in my years of buying and selling, and hope this is all just one big misunderstanding. I had hoped to purchase more from you, females or not, but that seems out the door now.

Sincerely,

Jasper
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Justin Miller
Aug 30

to me
Jasper,

First...I saw your posting just now.

I sent you a healthy female T. yangi as described. Having regrown toes doesn't mean it was not healthy. I mean, you wanted to kill the poor animals because it was not perfect. And truthfully, I never even noticed as I was concerned about the health of the animal. As for the coloration, all females are that coloration!!!

I didn't know how to express this to you at the time during a busy period in my life, but I am livid that you are running around like I ripped you off. You got your animals as described, healthy WC imports. If any died or had health issues, you never told me.

Cheers,

Justin
Blue Pumilio
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jasper H <[email protected]>
Aug 30

to Justin
Justin,

You can not be serious. I told you what I would do. Now you feel I warrant a response, now that your reputation is on the line on DB?

1. Missing toes were not the only issue. Please refer to the Facebook message, or the BOI thread.
2. I asked you what I should do. "At this point, do you think euthanasia is the right course of action?" Clearly, I was asking for advice. Do not warp my words into misconstrued intentions.
3. If you truly believe that all females are that coloration, I will gladly point you to Google images. http://www.caudata.org/forum/attach...-imageuploadedbytapatalk1361980682.795367.jpg Do you see the female's cloaca on that specimen? I hope you don't have others fooled.

That would have been completely understandable. However, as busy as you were, I don't think replying to an email would have been all that much trouble, considering how much you posted on your page. There was also the option of replying any time since June. It is now the end of August.

Let me put it this way. If you sent a dart frog with a jaw deformity, would the receiver take kindly to it? Would you take kindly to it? Please take a moment to step into the buyers' shoes.

Sincerely,
Jasper
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Justin Miller
Aug 30

to me
Actually my posts during that time where scheduled posts. My "Selected readings", right? I had over a months set up to go out at 6pm, daily. Maybe some photos of animals? I actually stopped selling any/all animals during that time after it was apparent I didn't have the time to focus on it.

You originally told me you wanted to put that female down because she has regrown toes. That sounded crazy to me and truthfully, I didn't know how to react to that.

As for the coloration, EVERY female came in that coloration, over 30 females, ever one. No males came in that coloration...just females, and all of them. Since then, they have darkened up.

As for the jaw, I didn't notice it when I shipped. There was no active infection, and it was likely due to a past break that healed, not genetic.

I will tell you now that the ONLY reason I am speaking to you is because I saw that post and obviously there was some serious miscommunication occurring. If I see any additional posts by you on that thread, I see no point to continue our correspondence, as you seriously stepped past your original posting and went into something else after that first. That other guy on there is f---ing crazy that posted after you. He got refunded, and choose to go through his bank after he refused to give me his Paypal email address. I'm not going to go in the BOI to explain that stuff....people just make up c--p, there.

Did you put that female down? Did she die?

Here is what I'll offer.

You pay shipping and I'll send you a new female.

Cheers,

Justin
Blue Pumilio

 

[Lucille]

From the post above between Jasper and Justin:


" I'm not going to go in the BOI to explain that stuff....people just make up ****, there.
Cheers,
Justin
Blue Pumilio"


Several people in this thread have already talked about the BOI and how it works, and that the interactions between the parties and questions from the onlookers usually find the truth.

I believe Justin is afraid to come here, not because people make up ****, but on the contrary, because after it is all said and done, it is remarkable how the real deal and the truth emerges.
Justin is so fearful that he is trying to put the hush on, threatening to withdraw contact from Jasper if Jasper continues to post here.



He is, however, keeping a close eye on the thread:

Blue_Pumilio
Registered User
Trader Rating: (0) [Rate This User!]
Send Message User Lists
Last Activity: 09-14-2013 11:31 PM

He also has put up a recent turtle ad on Fauna, so he is taking advantage of what our site has to offer while hiding from the BOI.

 

[kerrek]

2 free females would mean he comes out whole and even with the 2nd shipping, that is a break even scenario and seems a reasonable outcome.

How is he whole? He ordered and already paid for healthy animals. Now if he forks over shipping he gets 2 extra females that he may not want or have room for. You shouldn't have to pay extra to get what you originally ordered.

 

[Lucille]

From the post above between Jasper and Justin:

"As for the jaw, I didn't notice it when I shipped. There was no active infection, and it was likely due to a past break that healed, not genetic.
Cheers,
Justin
Blue Pumilio"

I can really begin to see from this particular claim why Justin does not want to explain himself here.
He sent this critter out with a deformed jaw and didn't even notice, and is now giving this buyer a hard time when all the buyer wants is a partial refund for a newt he may not want to use in his breeding program, a reasonable request, IMHO.

When his buyer said something, Justin offered an opinion based on absolutely nothing (since he did not even see the deformity) that it was a past injury and not a genetic abnormality. If Justin were here, he would be asked to explain how he formed such an unsupported opinion.

How many quality breeders would want to breed a critter like that, not knowing for sure why the critter is deformed, and sell the offspring to unsuspecting buyers? But the critter still has to be fed and cared for or sold as a pet, and how many people are in the market for deformed newts?

 

[markpulawski]

Jasper you said the 2 males were in peak condition, sincere or not Justin offering you 2 females for the price of shipping certainly seems like a fair offer and your original request was for a replacement. I can't imagine you would not get 2 good animals considering the profile the first female you got created and the likely hood of you having 2 pairs to work with seems like a win/win in my book. As for not giving him your address, the guy lives on the east coast of Florida, you live in California, being 3000 miles away do you honestly think you have anything to worry about?
And by the way how is the first female doing, does it eat and act normal or is it miscolored and wasting away?

 

[jasper408]

Jasper you said the 2 males were in peak condition, sincere or not Justin offering you 2 females for the price of shipping certainly seems like a fair offer and your original request was for a replacement. I can't imagine you would not get 2 good animals considering the profile the first female you got created and the likely hood of you having 2 pairs to work with seems like a win/win in my book. As for not giving him your address, the guy lives on the east coast of Florida, you live in California, being 3000 miles away do you honestly think you have anything to worry about?
And by the way how is the first female doing, does it eat and act normal or is it miscolored and wasting away?

There are a million things that could go wrong, from the health of the animals, to what I will be getting in the mail. Will I have to record the unpacking? It's just so much trouble. If everything goes to plan, then yes, his offer would be ideal, assuming I was willing to spend more money on more individuals. However, I would prefer the easier and cheaper path of a partial refund, if anything.

The female is okay, I suppose. You can't tell if they're in pain, for example. She is still quarantined from the rest of the group, and does eat. I will not be breeding her, yes, because of the risk of poor genetics.

 

[Scott Richardson]

Actually Mark, My original comment was in regard to Jasper stating he did not understand why Justin had a good reputation on DB. Because your little cliche protects him.

Why was I banned? For speaking ill of Justin in a PM with a Mod. And posting the threatening message I received in Public. I openly invited said Mod to post the pms here.

You only know of one person? On DB maybe. Like I told Scott if you need a name, read a few forums. Justin has recent threads about him on snake, chameleon, and spider forums. Not just frogs.

I am not the only one from DB that commented about DB. You can try to use the word banned to discredit my comments, but the other poster is not banned. Can you discredit him?

Why did it take the members of your little cliche to get Justin to make the offer he finally made? I don't believe he would of ever made any offer had DB not been brought into it.

Why are you speaking for Justin? Why isn't he speaking for himself?

 

[Scott Richardson]

Original post was made on July 9th. No offer made to make it right until August 30th?

 

[markpulawski]

Actually Scott I am not in any little clichés, I too received have infraction points from Scott the mod there however I knew that Justin moved into a house during the time frame you mentioned and had many issues with service during that period. As far as I know he took care of those problems and has since offered Jasper a fair solution although not the one Jasper is looking for. It really doesn't matter what you believe when you are speculating and hold a grudge as that would certainly taint what you think an outcome will be. I did not go to Justin, he sent me a note when he saw my comments on how he had offered Jasper a free female and then that day was going to offer him 2 to offset the shipping.

 

[Scott Richardson]

Oh, he was moving and got behind, Thanks for explaining that Mark. That almost clears it up.

Care to take a second to explain the rest of the past 6 years?
How about the 104 page post here?
Why the name change from Intense Herpetoculture? (wow did he have shitty feedback)
Did the guy in Chile ever get his 5 grand back?

You can say it is because he was moving, but he has a long history, not just a few screw ups while moving.
And it isn't about having a grudge, it is about informing newcomers. Justin is no different than Sidney or Taron.

 

[Yeay!Froggies!]

Hi,

I just made an order from Blue Pumilio about a week ago and now I am feeling like I regret it. Does anyone have full contact details for this guy? I would like a real address and phone number? Maybe a middle name? If this doesn't turn out well I am going to report him to the FBI for internet fraud. What he is doing is illegal and needs to be stopped.

As far as my story goes I made the order via his web site and he answered all my questions fast before the money was sent. Now I don't hardly hear from him. Now I have been waiting over a week for him to ship out the frogs I ordered and he is MIA. Upside is I paid through paypal and maybe I can get the money back from there. Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated.

Ken