• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

    =====================
    Posted 08/15/2025
    =====================


    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Bad Guy Kammerflage Kreations- Inbreeding/line breeding

Mafia89

Mafia89

New member
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
69
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
chicago illinois
After an inquiry on a particular female for sale to grow my breeding colony I found that they almost sold me an inbred/line bred panther if I wouldn't have asked for the sire and dam info.:NoNo: Needless to say I disagree with their business ethic and personal stand point on chameleon breeding and I wont be purchasing any chams bred by them or others that breed their offspring. There are enough panther chams in captivity to where the need for inbreeding has vanished and could lead to future problems. Leave the discussion of purchasing inbred/line bred animals to the buyer. Don't assume everyone shares the same view and beliefs on breeding as you do. Don't insist that inbreed/linebreeding is the best and only answer to breeding.

Here is a link to evidence and the whole conversation I had with them.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink....fset=0&total_comments=33&notif_t=feed_comment
 
You're not suppose to post links to other sources, but rather post the info here directly. This prevents the link from becoming obsolete if it is deleted, etc.
Also, as you didnt have a transaction with the person, how is he/she a bad guy? The thread is for experiences, not personal opinions.
 
KAMMERFLAGE KREATIONS: You are correct! He was paired to his sister for this breeding, so the look should be very strong. At the same time there is plenty of diversity in the lineage. I will be away for until later today, FYI. Thanks!
March 28 at 3:22pm

There was no transaction because any interest I expressed diminished once I found out more info.
 
You haven't been breeding real long, have you Marcin? It's commonplace with ALOT of animals. From dogs n cats, all the way to line bred horses & Human beings in other parts of he World. Lol. Might want to get used to the notion and drop the Hero status. Juss sayin! ;)
 
Tom Pecanic said:
You haven't been breeding real long, have you Marcin? It's commonplace with ALOT of animals. From dogs n cats, all the way to line bred horses & Human beings in other parts of he World. Lol. Might want to get used to the notion and drop the Hero status. Juss sayin! ;)
Click to expand...


Why would i bring in an animal whos offspring have a chance to cause probelms in the future vs one that has ZERO chance to produce problems? Use your head.
 
Mafia89 said:
Why would i bring in an animal whos offspring have a chance to cause probelms in the future vs one that has ZERO chance to produce problems? Use your head.
Click to expand...

Some do some don't. Use your head Chief! Sound like a complete BOZO with your talk here. Juss sayin. (again)
 
It's alright to linebreed -only if- you acknowledge the risks involved and plan on bringing diversity back into the line, in my opinion. It's not a good idea to linebreed for several generations obviously, but done carefully with strict genetics and health in mind, it can actually prove beneficial to the species in the long run.
Again, it's not something you want to do repeatedly or just out of aesthetics, but it can be done beneficially (of course I'm not a genetics expert so you'd have to make your own judgement there of whether or not it was or is done responsibly).
 
Mafia89 said:
Why would i bring in an animal whos offspring have a chance to cause probelms in the future vs one that has ZERO chance to produce problems? Use your head.
Click to expand...
While you're completely entitled to your personal opinion, and are free to base your purchases on it, I think that this thread's existence is indicative of an overabundance of zeal, coupled with a lack of understanding as to just how the morph game is played. Inbreeding/line-breeding is a nifty little shortcut to cashing in on the color/pattern mutations that everyone is clamoring for.

It's fine if you don't agree with it, but it's pretty unrealistic to have expected to come here and find much sympathy with your views. Especially when you're calling someone a "Bad Guy" for having done nothing worse than practicing breeding techniques that you simply disagree with.

While breeding relatives does tend to bring out any inherent genetic flaws that the animals may have, I think that if it's done judiciously, those chances can be minimized. I live in Lancaster, Pa, which means I'm surrounded by Amish. You wanna see the results of haphazard inbreeding, come visit my area. Their gene-pool is shallow enough that if you dove right in, you'd crack your skull before your ears even got wet. Having lightly skimmed the FB exchanges, it'd seem that the seller is aware of the possibilities and does breed in new blood to counteract them.
 
While I don't really agree with linebreeding siblings, I don't think that it constitutes a bad guy thread. I can see making one if he was purposely selling sick animals or trying to hide who the parents were, but that's not the case in this circumstance. The (potential) seller was being honest about the parents and it just sounds like the OP is just trying to start something.

Seriously, if you do not agree with someone's breeding ethics, don't do business with them, simple as that.
 
LateNightGeckos said:
While I don't really agree with linebreeding siblings, I don't think that it constitutes a bad guy thread. I can see making one if he was purposely selling sick animals or trying to hide who the parents were, but that's not the case in this circumstance. The (potential) seller was being honest about the parents and it just sounds like the OP is just trying to start something.

Seriously, if you do not agree with someone's breeding ethics, don't do business with them, simple as that.
Click to expand...

Sibling breeding is inbreeding. Line breeding is not inbreeding.Line breeding is done with partial sisters or brothers and grandparents. Mom back to son is inbreeding and not line breeding.Too much inbreeding and you will get some issues to deal with. A lot more then with line breeding.
At least with dogs.
 
The fear of harmful results from inbreeding reptiles is greatly exaggerated, coming more from a stigma and problems in HUMANS. Many wild reptile populations are inbred already, as reptiles have generally small home ranges, and their habitat is highly fragmented. Lower vertebrates are less affected by this than mammals...
 
Tom Pecanic said:
You haven't been breeding real long, have you Marcin? It's commonplace with ALOT of animals. From dogs n cats, all the way to line bred horses & Human beings in other parts of he World. Lol. Might want to get used to the notion and drop the Hero status. Juss sayin! ;)
Click to expand...

:iagree::iagree:

It's alright to disagree with their breeding practices, but creating a bad guy BOI over it is ridiculous at best. Done carefully Inbreeding and line breeding can actually strengthen the bloodline. I come from a horse background and often times you'll see the same stallion or mare in a pedigree more than once to try and bring out their best qualities. Some of the most expensive and sought after halter horses have line or inbreeding in their pedigrees. It's my understanding that reptiles aren't as negatively effected by inbreeding like mammals are. For all you know the chams you already have might have inbreeding in their backgrounds!

You don't like it, fine. But don't bash those who do just because you don't agree.
 
Mafia89 said:
Why would i bring in an animal whos offspring have a chance to cause probelms in the future vs one that has ZERO chance to produce problems? Use your head.
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as zero chance. If two related animals do not have a hidden defect, they will be just as problem free as two unrelated animals without the defect. If two unrelated animals share the hidden gene for a defect, it will express just the same.
 
So, Ed, Kammerflage, tells you everything he knows about the animals. You ask, he answers. You decide you don't like the way he does things so you come here and pitch a bit of a fit. How nice. I suppose the fact that Ed is tremendously successful and has some of the best panthers you'll ever see never entered into you thought process once you found out that he did things differently than you. Loverly.

This thread us not only unfounded, but unwarranted.

You owe Ed an apology.
 
Quite honestly, I don't believe that most of the breeders of reptiles in the world could even exist if they didn't do absolutely ANY inbreeding of their animals. For instance, if you are lucky enough to hatch out a new genetic trait, it's pretty much impossible to reproduce it and propagate the trait without breeding animals related to each other together. The chances of you producing or obtaining the same exact genetic trait in completely unrelated animals is so infinitesimally small that you would have better luck praying for a solid gold meteor to land in your back own yard.

Even if you want to enhance the attractiveness of a line of animals, inbreeding is a tried and true method that breeders use quite a bit in order to achieve that goal. Most people refer to this as "selective breeding", but it's really the same thing, in most cases. Quite frankly, if any breeder told me that they do absolutely NO inbreeding with their stock, I would have my doubts that they really understand what that term means.

in·breed·ing [in-bree-ding]
noun: Biology.

the mating of closely related individuals, as cousins, sire-daughter, brother-sister, or self-fertilized plants, which tends to increase the number of individuals that are homozygous for a trait and therefore increases the appearance of recessive traits.
Click to expand...

Even with genetics aside, the rarer the animal, the more likely it is that nearly all the stock in captivity came from related animals captured at the same time at the same location. Even in wild populations, the travel ranges of most animals is so confined that their is a HUGE likelihood that catching any animals in nearby locales will have them closely related to each other.

And one thing that many people completely overlook. Inbreeding not only enhances the chances of negative traits to show up, but also enhances the chances of POSITIVE traits being displayed. You are simply rolling the dice and hoping for a lucky number.

So in short, calling a breeder a "bad guy" because they inbreed their animals, is quite naive and ill founded, to say the least.
 
if the line has only been bred for a while and if your buying it wont be inbred any more so it has less of a chance of passing on the bad recessive genes
 
WebSlave said:
Quite honestly, I don't believe that most of the breeders of reptiles in the world could even exist if they didn't do absolutely ANY inbreeding of their animals. For instance, if you are lucky enough to hatch out a new genetic trait, it's pretty much impossible to reproduce it and propagate the trait without breeding animals related to each other together. The chances of you producing or obtaining the same exact genetic trait in completely unrelated animals is so infinitesimally small that you would have better luck praying for a solid gold meteor to land in your back own yard.

Even if you want to enhance the attractiveness of a line of animals, inbreeding is a tried and true method that breeders use quite a bit in order to achieve that goal. Most people refer to this as "selective breeding", but it's really the same thing, in most cases. Quite frankly, if any breeder told me that they do absolutely NO inbreeding with their stock, I would have my doubts that they really understand what that term means.



Even with genetics aside, the rarer the animal, the more likely it is that nearly all the stock in captivity came from related animals captured at the same time at the same location. Even in wild populations, the travel ranges of most animals is so confined that their is a HUGE likelihood that catching any animals in nearby locales will have them closely related to each other.

And one thing that many people completely overlook. Inbreeding not only enhances the chances of negative traits to show up, but also enhances the chances of POSITIVE traits being displayed. You are simply rolling the dice and hoping for a lucky number.

So in short, calling a breeder a "bad guy" because they inbreed their animals, is quite naive and ill founded, to say the least.
Click to expand...

Any of the chameleon breeders that Ive talked to were completely against inbreeding or line breeding. I don't know how it is with other herps on here but no one i know deliberately inbreeds panthers or sees a need to. No one that ive talked to has openly said they would prefer an inbred or line bred animals. Nor does anyone i know ever purchase and brother and sister with the intent of breeding the 2. There is plenty of chams you can breed and still achieve desired traits. It not like hes producing anything out of the ordinary such as bigger or better chams, simply line breeding for aesthetics. Fact is that I want other cham owners and breeders or future pet owners that share the same views as me to be aware of his practices. IF you like line breeding then go right ahead and purchase from him.
 
Back
Top