keepers of aggressive snakes

[Emylee]

I was hoping some of you might be able to help me with my newest emerald. As I'm sure you know, emeralds aren't exactly known to be cuddle bugs. However I'm always patient, slow, calm, and confidant and they all eventually come around and will 'tolerate' my presence.

Typically I also use what I call the 'paper towel method.' I take a big wad of paper towels and block their face so they can't see me as I clean their cage and mist them. I'll touch them a little on their sides and top of their head lightly for a few minutes each day. Eventually I reach a stage of confidence where I'll phase out the paper towels and gradually progress until they will let me gently remove them from their perch and handle them. Some seem to enjoy getting out of their enclosures, while others are more grumpy and will tolerate it for about 30 seconds before I feel they're too stressed and may bite, at which point they're put back in their enclosures asap. After several months of that if nothing's changed, I feel it's in the best interest of the snake to handle it as little as possible to avoid stress related health issues.

Now, on to my question. My newest female is sending mixed signals. She is VERY aggressive. I have never had an emerald be on the 'offense' they are always on the 'defense' and yet she seems to be seeking out conflict.

When I open her enclosure she acts like some of my tamer snakes and tries to come out. She is VERY observant and arranges herself in that classic striking pose. She actively seeks me out and tries to come to me. My gut tells me she's trying to attack, but her movement is so similar to my more tame snakes that are curious about me and want to interact with me that I just don't know what to do. I have never been bitten by my emeralds, and I don't want to start now. But no matter what my guts telling me, my heart is saying I should give her the benefit of the doubt and allow her to interact with me. She is way too smart for my 'paper towel method' to have much effect on her.

Also this morning I found her large water box flipped over and she was hiding under it. She's been provided with perches and the humidity in her enclosure is NOT lacking in any way at all. She gets misted several times a day, and the average humidity is at 90% which is actually a tad high since she's still new and I'm attempting to rehydrate her.

So what do you guys think? Should I allow her the freedom she's seeking and risk getting bit? How would you guys handle this situation?

Thanks so much.

 

[Tim Cole]

I treat mine like tropical fish.

Set them up and leave them alone.

Save handling for less stressed species.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I agree with Tim and in fact have used the 'tropical fish' analogy when describing them to other people as well

I don't keep ETBs but I have a decent collection of ATBs. Some are fine with light handling, but the majority don't want me anywhere near them (I have a few WC but most were CBB). I typically use a snake hook for handling, they are quick to let me know when they've had enough (bite, pee, musk). I used to handle them more often but they seem the most content when left alone.

As far as flipping the water over, probably didn't have anything to do with needing more humidity, they are just brats sometimes and make a mess when moving around.

 

[Snake-Queen]

I have 2 (ETB) that I can comfortably hold with no fear of being bit. I had been working on my wc female and thought she had calmed down to the point of being removed so her enclosure could be cleaned ... I was wrong. She bit me, I will say it isn't pleasant & don't wish it on any one.

My advice is to let her be.

I also keep ATBs & GTPs and have been bitten by at least one of them. By far the ETB is the worst.

 

[Emylee]

Thanks for the input guys!

I agree that some ETBs shouldn't be handled. I have a few that hate my guts and want nothing other than to be left alone. The only time I handle them is to clean their cage or feeding (they are moved to a separate enclosure.)

But I've also found that some of them don't thrive if kept contained all the time. They actually enjoy being handled and when I open the enclosure for misting they latch on to my arm. I attempt to handle all of them for a few months and if it seems like it's stressing them I don't push it. I've seen pictures of the bites and it does NOT look like fun!

My main concern with this girl is that she seemed really upset that she couldn't leave her enclosure. I was trying to decide if it was because she hated my guts and wanted to take out a chunk of my arm, or if it was because she was curious and lively and wanted to explore a little bit.

So I finally said heck with it. Everyone has to get bit sometime and I don't want to restrict her if it's making her unhappy. So I went for it. I guess her striking pose was really just curiosity because she didn't try to attack when I approached her. It's always nerve wracking to let them sniff your hand for the first time because you never know what's going on inside their head.

I'm happy to report that she just wanted to explore a little bit. Still haven't been bit! I spent about half an hour with her allowing her to coil around my arms, and then I let her roam around the room for a bit. I have a grow tent with a bunch of reptile safe plants in the snake room and she found it. When I decided to get into boas I added a bunch of perches in there as well (it's about 3 feet by 3 feet wide and over 6 foot tall) and it seemed like she perked up more than I thought possible for a boa. She inspected every plant and perch and then found a nice place to coil up under the light and crashed out. I was sad to put her back in her enclosure, she really fought to stay in the tent.

 

[JColt]

She could have a really healthy food response also. I have 2 boas that have retic like feeding responses. You dont stick hand in until they know there not getting fed.

 

[Edwardo]

You seem a little obsessed about handling them,


I would think the last thing an ETB would want, is being uncoiled and pulled from its perch by something. Thats its security.
That has to really set it back, especially constantly, like your doing.

I clean my emeralds cages, without them ever even lifting ther heads. Why do you move them to another cage to feed them? More stress.

Healthy emeralds should be in a nice tight coil mostly, during daylight hours, not crawling around, looking to get out of the cage, sounds like something isn't right with your set up.

You need to set them up correctly, and leave them alone.

 

[AGoodwin]

I would think the last thing an ETB would want, is being uncoiled and pulled from its perch by something. Thats its security.
That has to really set it back, especially constantly, like your doing.

But its okay for us to pluck our ball pythons from their hides to handle them?

All reptiles get stressed from handling initially but we still do it anyways to get them used to it. Why do people feel that tree snakes are so different?

 

[Edwardo]

But its okay for us to pluck our ball pythons from their hides to handle them?

All reptiles get stressed from handling initially but we still do it anyways to get them used to it. Why do people feel that tree snakes are so different?

Reptiles get stressed from handling anytime, not just initially.
Maybe to a lesser degree overtime, but its still stresses them.

 

[hadenglock]

But its okay for us to pluck our ball pythons from their hides to handle them?

All reptiles get stressed from handling initially but we still do it anyways to get them used to it. Why do people feel that tree snakes are so different?

For one thing you cannot compare a ball python to an emerald tree boa when it comes to care outside of the basic realm of captive care. Also take into consideration the heavy amount of ball python breeding compared to true ETB breeding. You still see a large number of ETB being imported every year, and these are the animals that are more likely to be over stressed with then leads to sickness. Plus when you look at captive care for most tree snakes, there just isnt enough research and experience in there captive care when compared to something like a ball python, so that means there are still a lot people out there not properly housing and caring for "tree snakes" even diet is still under debate for a lot tree dwelling serpents.

 

[GMTIRRILL]

emily, etb like green tree python do a lot better with very little handling as for using paper towels to block they're face just remember etbs can sense heat and paper towel doesnt block your heat from them use a snake hook and let them be etbs will never like to cuddle

 

[Emylee]

You seem a little obsessed about handling them,

That's a fair assessment. I agree, I am a little obsessed with handling them. I enjoy it, they get exercise, and I'm currently working on a breeding project in which I'm selecting only the most healthy docile emeralds. It's part of my hobby to be obsessed with handling them. How ever do you think balls got to be so laid back?

I would think the last thing an ETB would want, is being uncoiled and pulled from its perch by something. Thats its security.
That has to really set it back, especially constantly, like your doing.

Sir, please read what I wrote. I never uncoil my emeralds, I gently put a few fingers under their upper neck and let them decide if they want to come out of their enclosure. Most of the time the majority will latch on to me and come out of their own free will. Would you enjoy your life much if you were free under the green canopied sky one day, and the next confined to six solid walls? All my animals deserve the right of freedom, they are beautiful and special and provide me with enjoyment. Although the freedom I am able to provide is limited, it's my duty as their keeper to provide it none the less.

I clean my emeralds cages, without them ever even lifting ther heads. Why do you move them to another cage to feed them? More stress.

They have a separate feeding enclosure because as I said they are being bred specifically for temperament. I do not want any of my animals to associate me opening their enclosures with striking at prey. My fingers might look like mice one day if they're hungry! Also mine are wide awake at 6 am when I get off work and spot clean their cages and hand mist. Not all of us have the luxury of working normal hours.

Healthy emeralds should be in a nice tight coil mostly, during daylight hours, not crawling around, looking to get out of the cage, sounds like something isn't right with your set up.

Maybe it sounds that way to you, but I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't make assumptions like that on a public forum. Now anyone that read your post might think my animals are kept in inadequate enclosures if they don't look at my reply. That's a very immature comment to make especially considering there is not much info posted about my enclosures from me, or anyone else for that matter. Also if you had read through my last post, not only do I provide my animals with their more than adequate enclosures, which if I'm being honest are probably verging on being TOO over the top, I also provide them with an exercise area full of living plants and perches. It is over 6 feet tall and three feet wide and deep. It is a grow tent I once used for fruit and veggies but is now being used for my emeralds.

Also I'm fairly certain they are snoozing during the day, but since I'm usually asleep as well I couldn't guarantee that.

You need to set them up correctly, and leave them alone.

Who made you the snake authority? That's a little harsh, but if you are of that opinion so be it. Just know that it it's YOUR opinion, not mine.

Also my snakes are very well cared for. But thanks for the concern!

 

[Emylee]

But its okay for us to pluck our ball pythons from their hides to handle them?

All reptiles get stressed from handling initially but we still do it anyways to get them used to it. Why do people feel that tree snakes are so different?

I appreciate this comment quite a bit, even if you were honestly curious, thank you for pointing this out.

I've noticed people get really stuck on the whole 'there's only ONE right way to care for _____ (insert exotic here) train. Emeralds are more exotic than balls and other species of snakes and I think that since not much is known about them people get this mentality. I just wish they'd realize that all animals are individuals and products of their environment as well. Look at the huge pit bull debate! Some say they're evil, some say cuddle monsters.

The faster people realize there is no one right way to care for exotics, the better off the species will be. (in captivity obviously.) Push the envelope, step out of the box. Whatever it takes. My goal right now it to produce some of the sweetest, most docile emeralds in captivity to date. I think it would be wonderful if more of these beautiful animals were placed into homes willing to explore all facets of their needs, not just cut and dry textbook care.

 

[AGoodwin]

My goal right now it to produce some of the sweetest, most docile emeralds in captivity to date. I think it would be wonderful if more of these beautiful animals were placed into homes willing to explore all facets of their needs, not just cut and dry textbook care.

I commend you for your effort. It it were not for people like you, we would not have ANY of our current domestic pets. Every domestic animal was wild at one point, but people like you decided to try and see if they could be tamed.

 

[Edwardo]

You seem a little obsessed about handling them,

That's a fair assessment. I agree, I am a little obsessed with handling them. I enjoy it, they get exercise, and I'm currently working on a breeding project in which I'm selecting only the most healthy docile emeralds. It's part of my hobby to be obsessed with handling them. How ever do you think balls got to be so laid back?

I would think the last thing an ETB would want, is being uncoiled and pulled from its perch by something. Thats its security.
That has to really set it back, especially constantly, like your doing.

Sir, please read what I wrote. I never uncoil my emeralds, I gently put a few fingers under their upper neck and let them decide if they want to come out of their enclosure. Most of the time the majority will latch on to me and come out of their own free will. Would you enjoy your life much if you were free under the green canopied sky one day, and the next confined to six solid walls? All my animals deserve the right of freedom, they are beautiful and special and provide me with enjoyment. Although the freedom I am able to provide is limited, it's my duty as their keeper to provide it none the less.

I clean my emeralds cages, without them ever even lifting ther heads. Why do you move them to another cage to feed them? More stress.

They have a separate feeding enclosure because as I said they are being bred specifically for temperament. I do not want any of my animals to associate me opening their enclosures with striking at prey. My fingers might look like mice one day if they're hungry! Also mine are wide awake at 6 am when I get off work and spot clean their cages and hand mist. Not all of us have the luxury of working normal hours.

Healthy emeralds should be in a nice tight coil mostly, during daylight hours, not crawling around, looking to get out of the cage, sounds like something isn't right with your set up.

Maybe it sounds that way to you, but I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't make assumptions like that on a public forum. Now anyone that read your post might think my animals are kept in inadequate enclosures if they don't look at my reply. That's a very immature comment to make especially considering there is not much info posted about my enclosures from me, or anyone else for that matter. Also if you had read through my last post, not only do I provide my animals with their more than adequate enclosures, which if I'm being honest are probably verging on being TOO over the top, I also provide them with an exercise area full of living plants and perches. It is over 6 feet tall and three feet wide and deep. It is a grow tent I once used for fruit and veggies but is now being used for my emeralds.

Also I'm fairly certain they are snoozing during the day, but since I'm usually asleep as well I couldn't guarantee that.

You need to set them up correctly, and leave them alone.

Who made you the snake authority? That's a little harsh, but if you are of that opinion so be it. Just know that it it's YOUR opinion, not mine.

Also my snakes are very well cared for. But thanks for the concern!

Sorry you took my comments so personally. I was just concerned about the welfare of the emeralds.
Its just that your first two posts sounded so odd to me.
There your snakes you can do whatever you want with them.

Emeralds are notorious for not adjusting well to captive conditions, and handling them definatly doesn't help things. They are not built like a heavier terrestrial snake.

As a keeper of emeralds, I try to provide for them a cage or enviorment that supports optimal conditions.
In order to do that, I first need to know what optimal conds are.
Secondly I need to know how to apply those conditions to the cage.
I guess you know all about that though.

Good solid emerald husbandry.
Thats what you should be concentrating on, especially if you want to breed them. Not all that handling and taming nonsense.



ld

 

[Tim Cole]

Sorry you took my comments so personally. I was just concerned about the welfare of the emeralds.
Its just that your first two posts sounded so odd to me.
There your snakes you can do whatever you want with them.

Emeralds are notorious for not adjusting well to captive conditions, and handling them definatly doesn't help things. They are not built like a heavier terrestrial snake.

As a keeper of emeralds, I try to provide for them a cage or enviorment that supports optimal conditions.
In order to do that, I first need to know what optimal conds are.
Secondly I need to know how to apply those conditions to the cage.
I guess you know all about that though.

Good solid emerald husbandry.
Thats what you should be concentrating on, especially if you want to breed them. Not all that handling and taming nonsense.
ld

Well put and I agree. I also keep ETB's.

 

[Helenthereef]

Well, I think it depends on what you want from the snakes. I agree that there are some very hidebound "rules' out there, which may not apply to every snake or to every snake keeper. On the other hand those "rules' come about from the experiences people have gathered over time, and are a good basis for best practice.

If you want to breed and trade regular emeralds, then the consensus of all those who have kept them before you is to leave them alone and not to handle unnecessarily. However, if you want to break the mold and try and do something new or slightly different, I fail to see why you should not do just that.

I do not keep emeralds but the title of your thread was 'Keepers of aggressive snakes", so I'm going to take that as permission to derail slightly and talk about my own experiences with a different species of semi-arboreal boa.

I have kept 12 adult Candoia bibroni bibroni as pets, and interacting with them is important to me. They are semi-arboreal in that they move around between hides on the floor and upper branches. They often spend days or even weeks in either, then change over. They generally have a mellow temperament, but they have distinct personalities. I remove them from their tanks regularly, for casual handling, and to feed in separate tubs.

None of them give me any problem with picking them up if they are on the floor or under a hide, but 2 or 3 of them object to being unwound from a branch. One will bite if I attempt it, and so for her, I also block her head with a cloth until I have her off the branch and she's 100% fine.

I have two who are "volunteers" - as soon as the tank door is open they approach the door, look out, and will often march straight out onto my arm. They are also more interactive with me during handling, and never bite or threaten to.

So, in my (unqualified with emeralds) opinion, I see no problem doing what you are doing. It sounds as though you are working out what works for you and your snakes, and it's interesting to hear your experiences.

You are trying something new. Obviously that has risks, and there's a possibility they will not thrive or breed if you overstress them, but you'll find that out - or maybe you'll get bitten and decide to stop the experiment!.

I do think it's likely though that they will find being "unwound" from a branch more stressful than if they were just being picked up from the floor, so I agree that gentleness and slowness is essential.

As far as your "volunteer" goes, if she wants to come out and be handled, I'd say let her, and enjoy her!

 

[Helenthereef]

Some seem to enjoy getting out of their enclosures, while others are more grumpy and will tolerate it for about 30 seconds before I feel they're too stressed and may bite, at which point they're put back in their enclosures asap.

Just one point about this, though - if you let it go on too long, and they DO bite, you risk inadvertently teaching them that biting gets the desired results, i.e., being put back into the tank.

 

[Emylee]

Sorry you took my comments so personally. I was just concerned about the welfare of the emeralds.
Its just that your first two posts sounded so odd to me.
There your snakes you can do whatever you want with them.

Emeralds are notorious for not adjusting well to captive conditions, and handling them definatly doesn't help things. They are not built like a heavier terrestrial snake.

As a keeper of emeralds, I try to provide for them a cage or enviorment that supports optimal conditions.
In order to do that, I first need to know what optimal conds are.
Secondly I need to know how to apply those conditions to the cage.
I guess you know all about that though.

Good solid emerald husbandry.
Thats what you should be concentrating on, especially if you want to breed them. Not all that handling and taming nonsense.

ld

And I apologize if my response came off as a little harsh. It just got under my skin a little bit since I love these animals and provide them with the best of everything. I'm actually taking my two newest arrivals to the vet today for a check up and to test for parasites and it's going to be a 4 hour round trip. I care for them, if I didn't I wouldn't be taking them to the best vet for herps in my state. I'm toying with the idea of taking a short video when I get back to show you guys how they latch onto me and WANT interaction. Maybe that will sway some of you who think they are strictly look but not touch pets.

If any of your emeralds displayed an interest in being more social, and all their needs were fully met (housing, food, etc) would you explore the possibility of handling them gently? I'm honestly curious, and I apologize again if my post seemed defensive and a little rude. I take pride in very few things and my snakes are one of them.

Tim that question goes for you as well, and I would love your input. Although I disagree with your onion I am far from all knowing and am open to learning and improving from others experiences.

AGoodwin, thanks for the support, I really appreciate it.

 

[Emylee]

Well, I think it depends on what you want from the snakes. I agree that there are some very hidebound "rules' out there, which may not apply to every snake or to every snake keeper. On the other hand those "rules' come about from the experiences people have gathered over time, and are a good basis for best practice.

This is a very good point, and I have to admit I did get a little annoyed at some things that were being said and may have come off as thinking I know more about emeralds than all the people that came before me. I don't think this at all, however I feel new information can only be gleaned if one pulls away from the grain a bit. I am very thankful for all the people who took the time to compile the information that's currently available. I'm sure that their trial and error methods were fraught with heartache and stress and I commend them for helping others by making that information available to all.

If you want to breed and trade regular emeralds, then the consensus of all those who have kept them before you is to leave them alone and not to handle unnecessarily. However, if you want to break the mold and try and do something new or slightly different, I fail to see why you should not do just that.

Thank you for the understanding and support. I kind of left myself open to disapproval, and I really appreciate those who have open minds.

I do not keep emeralds but the title of your thread was 'Keepers of aggressive snakes", so I'm going to take that as permission to derail slightly and talk about my own experiences with a different species of semi-arboreal boa.

I have kept 12 adult Candoia bibroni bibroni as pets, and interacting with them is important to me. They are semi-arboreal in that they move around between hides on the floor and upper branches. They often spend days or even weeks in either, then change over. They generally have a mellow temperament, but they have distinct personalities. I remove them from their tanks regularly, for casual handling, and to feed in separate tubs.

None of them give me any problem with picking them up if they are on the floor or under a hide, but 2 or 3 of them object to being unwound from a branch. One will bite if I attempt it, and so for her, I also block her head with a cloth until I have her off the branch and she's 100% fine.

I have two who are "volunteers" - as soon as the tank door is open they approach the door, look out, and will often march straight out onto my arm. They are also more interactive with me during handling, and never bite or threaten to.

So, in my (unqualified with emeralds) opinion, I see no problem doing what you are doing. It sounds as though you are working out what works for you and your snakes, and it's interesting to hear your experiences.

You are trying something new. Obviously that has risks, and there's a possibility they will not thrive or breed if you overstress them, but you'll find that out - or maybe you'll get bitten and decide to stop the experiment!.

I do think it's likely though that they will find being "unwound" from a branch more stressful than if they were just being picked up from the floor, so I agree that gentleness and slowness is essential.

As far as your "volunteer" goes, if she wants to come out and be handled, I'd say let her, and enjoy her!

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It comforts me to know that others see personality differences amongst their animals as well. Sometimes I worry I humanize them, that even though they appear to be healthy and happy I am actually stressing them out. This morning I was misting them and I put my arm into my favorite snakes enclosure and she immediately started to coil around it. I thought to myself 'do you really want to come out or are you just doing this because it's expected? Do you see me as a threat you have to get ahead of? Are you only coming to me because you think their may be consequences if you don't?' And then I decided I would drive myself crazy trying to figure out what's going on inside her head, and that I was probably giving them too much credit in the intelligence department.

Your volunteers sound like a few of mine. I think we're both lucky to have them.