KelliH and others Banned? Why?

[varnyard]

Jim, I must get the truth about this out before this even gets started. The Mod forums are not used to bash anyone. There are no threads that I know of anywhere in there used to bash members.

However, there is a thread that was made by Rich for the moderators to say what they have on their mind if they have a problem with another mod. When all of these Mods were there, most of them said (Including Kelli) that they had no problem with anyone. Now they had a forum to express how they felt, but instead decided to go behind everyones back and stab them.

 

[nicolai]

I will agree that there hasnt been any member bashing in the MOD forum!!!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

as well as the mod-forum if it is used as a place to bash us common folks.

Jim, that is not the intent or the direction of the forum.

 

[Ken Harbart]

I look at it this way...let's say I have an acquaintance as a frequent guest in my house. If I later find out that that person is stabbing me in the back at every chance they get, I'm not going to be inviting them back into my house anytime soon.

And to be quite honest, things like this make me glad to have faded out of the herp community for the time being. I have very little time or patience for all the deceit and backstabbing that prompted Rich's actions. At one time, I had considered many of those people friends, but came to realize that this was only so as long as it served their own agendas.

I've come to see a dark, disappointing side of many individuals. Here we have a group of individuals, some of whom thrive on pettiness and conflict. When there is none, they must create their own drama. Likewise, there are those who feel the need to ridicule others for no other purpose than to feel better about themselves. Then there was those who merely jumped on the bandwagon because they were to simple-minded to form their own opinion- instead, they just follow the crowd. All three are just as sad and pathetic.

I see a lot of talk about lost talent or experience. Talent and experience are meaningless if they're wasted on shallow, immature individuals, which is what the case seems to be. It's unfortunate that many people who are physically adults haven't emotionally matured past the preteen years. Such is life, however. Essentially, I'm just preaching to the choir, as this isn't going to cause any of the aforementioned personalities to do any soul searching.

Perhaps Griz said it best "They say that character is who you are when nobody is looking." In this case, certain people thought no one was looking, they took off the masks that they were hiding behind and showed their true character.

 

[varnyard]

I might get some feedback for posting this but I think it needs to be here.
This was Kelli's statement.

Originally Posted by KelliH
Well, I have no issues with anybody here, and if I ever do, I certainly would not play childish games with the person(s) on Fauna. I don't think you made a mistake in implementing the mod program at all. I think it is a great idea. It is unfortunate that some who were given such a good opportunity here took advantage of it, and even more unfortunate that they have decided to leave the site for good. It's totally their loss though, and besides, something tells me they will be back...

I feel like it needs to be seen here. It will clear a lot of this up. This was her statement when she commented in the mod forums.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Thanks Bobby and Nicolai. I think I was taking a statement made in the other thread at face value, and am glad that you made a post here saying it was not so. Its unfortunate that it stands in the other thread as to demean mod's here. I think your testimony reinforces the difference between what the other thread purports to support, some twisted version of "free-speech rights", and what the mod-forum displays, which would be responsible conduct by those in a position of authority within a free-speech society.

I would hope that this "respect" not be confused with standard respect tiers that we all can identify with. Using the military as an example, an enlisted person has to show more respect for an officer than vice-versa, as all officers are saluted by the lower rank, orders obeyed, etc. But that does not mean that the lower rank is now fair game for disrespect. Good officers and NCO's, and leaders anywhere, do not abuse their position, and the respect inherent with it, but actually earn the additional true respect which is the trademark of a good leader. While I respect many of those who posted in the antagonistic thread, I also think there was plenty of poor judgement displayed in its concept and many of the posts there.

Rich and others, I found it somewhat humorous how quickly that site (2 days?) descended into the Wild-West of old. There is no perfect forum, but those who don't learn from their mistakes, or the mistakes of others, are destined to repeat them!

 

[bcfos]

Rich,

Don't take it so personally guy. People do this type of stuff all the time. You and I went through this a while back and came to a solution and made ammends. Do I agree on this banning? Honestly I have only one opinion on it and it is this. As you are the owner of this site you can do what you feel is best for yourself and other members at your whim. If someone doesn't like that fact I would suggest they find another forum to call home. As for keeping "people like that" out of the forum as Dand suggested, I guess I am a little more diverse that the average fauna member. I have friends that range from members of the pagans and outlaws to aids for members of congress. Granted you wouldn't see a senate aid at the same party as a couple of outlaws but each person on an individual level has something to offer. The trick is finding that thing in each person. Though it is kind of wierd talking with say some friends which many would consider "A criminal element" then the next morning be seated across the desk from a state senator talking about how we can get the voting public to agree with a expansion project on a nuclear plant.

Me personally I just don't have the time to get my boxers in a bunch over some trivial behind the back talk, and I am sure you don't either. SO my opinion on what you do is quite simple. Do what you want and if someone doesn't like it tough.

One thing does bother me though. People running to give bad guy comments on people they haven't even done business with. I see it like this. We do some business with FPL down in Florida a good bit. Well TECO goes out and says we are crooks because we cost the customers of FPL 33 million dollars but we haven't done any business with TECO. How would TECO know what FPL got for their money? How would they know how we treated FPL? They wouldn't, so they would have no fact to base this on at all. Yet in doing so TECO might cost us a great deal of money in lost future business transactions with other like sized utilities in Florida just from the whole word of mouth thing. Some of these people depend greatly on their sales of animals for an income. And attempting to ruin that income over some comments made is pretty petty in my opinion. And it is even worse if you haven't even done any business with that person in the first place. Honestly someone can be as cocky as they come and still provide top rate animals and killer customer service, yet due to the attitudes of some other future buyers might never know.

 

[WebSlave]

Thanks Bobby and Nicolai. I think I was taking a statement made in the other thread at face value, and am glad that you made a post here saying it was not so.

Jim,

Since some people may just doubt the word of some mods here, I have granted you access to the moderators forum so you can take a look around for yourself. If anyone then further doubts YOUR word as well, they can ask Wendy, as I purposely allowed her to keep access to that forum even after she was removed as a mod.

You are certainly under no obligation to do anything with this access, but you now have it nonetheless.

 

[bcfos]

Jim,

Since some people may just doubt the word of some mods here, I have granted you access to the moderators forum so you can take a look around for yourself. If anyone then further doubts YOUR word as well, they can ask Wendy, as I purposely allowed her to keep access to that forum even after she was removed as a mod.

You are certainly under no obligation to do anything with this access, but you now have it nonetheless.

Now that right there is a bold trusting move showing nothing is hidden.

Honestly if it is like TRR's mod forum Jim will be bored out of his mind after the first post is read.

 

[WebSlave]

One thing does bother me though. People running to give bad guy comments on people they haven't even done business with. I see it like this. We do some business with FPL down in Florida a good bit. Well TECO goes out and says we are crooks because we cost the customers of FPL 33 million dollars but we haven't done any business with TECO. How would TECO know what FPL got for their money? How would they know how we treated FPL? They wouldn't, so they would have no fact to base this on at all. Yet in doing so TECO might cost us a great deal of money in lost future business transactions with other like sized utilities in Florida just from the whole word of mouth thing. Some of these people depend greatly on their sales of animals for an income. And attempting to ruin that income over some comments made is pretty petty in my opinion. And it is even worse if you haven't even done any business with that person in the first place. Honestly someone can be as cocky as they come and still provide top rate animals and killer customer service, yet due to the attitudes of some other future buyers might never know.

Brian,

Of course I do recognize what you are saying, and honestly I am kind of divided about what to think about it, much less DO about it. Any requirement on my part that participants within the GGC program MUST have done business with the person or business they are voting on would be useless. It is completely unenforceable. There is no possible way (unless I wanted to hire a private investigator solely to manage that section) to audit every vote placed in that section. And yes, I do agree that it should be completely related to the prospect of doing business and nothing else. In effect, the voting on the GGC polls should present a quick view to anyone interested in how the members here feel about doing business with that person.

Now the division part. Personally, would I want to do business with people who have do blatantly displayed what I have seen displayed in *that* thread? Would I be in the least bit motivated to ever do business with people who were calling me names behind my back and belittling my efforts HERE with this site? Would such an opinion on my part be worthy of sharing as a warning to others to put such an opinion into consideration of the formulation of their own opinions on such matters?

Gets sticky, doesn't it? But for the record, no, I have not voted on those polls at all. But that doesn't mean I will require anyone to follow my lead, either. The truth of the matter is that the GGC polls are in most part a popularity poll run by the members here. And as such, since I put the ability for members to change or delete their votes, it can change over time as opinions change. That is just the nature of the beast, and one I had to address when I was first considering launching that program. It is not perfect. It cannot be perfect. But it can perhaps be a tool that people can use to help themselves if it is not abused into uselessness by the participating members.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Rich,
I will take you up on that later today, as I have much work yet to do while the sun is still up. I don't think I personally have a dog in the hunt, in that no one had said, nor had I taken, that my name was trashed. But I did mention the rumor in this thread, although it had already been mentioned by an earlier poster here, and in that vein cannot back away from involvement. I do think that obligates me, with the permission that you have granted, to give it a look, and report my feedback here. I regret having carried that water for whomever made the original claim, but think that the opportunity to clear it up now speaks droves of how Fauna conducts itself.

 

[bcfos]

Brian,

Of course I do recognize what you are saying, and honestly I am kind of divided about what to think about it, much less DO about it. Any requirement on my part that participants within the GGC program MUST have done business with the person or business they are voting on would be useless. It is completely unenforceable. There is no possible way (unless I wanted to hire a private investigator solely to manage that section) to audit every vote placed in that section. And yes, I do agree that it should be completely related to the prospect of doing business and nothing else. In effect, the voting on the GGC polls should present a quick view to anyone interested in how the members here feel about doing business with that person.

Now the division part. Personally, would I want to do business with people who have do blatantly displayed what I have seen displayed in *that* thread? Would I be in the least bit motivated to ever do business with people who were calling me names behind my back and belittling my efforts HERE with this site? Would such an opinion on my part be worthy of sharing as a warning to others to put such an opinion into consideration of the formulation of their own opinions on such matters?

Gets sticky, doesn't it? But for the record, no, I have not voted on those polls at all. But that doesn't mean I will require anyone to follow my lead, either. The truth of the matter is that the GGC polls are in most part a popularity poll run by the members here. And as such, since I put the ability for members to change or delete their votes, it can change over time as opinions change. That is just the nature of the beast, and one I had to address when I was first considering launching that program. It is not perfect. It cannot be perfect. But it can perhaps be a tool that people can use to help themselves if it is not abused into uselessness by the participating members.

Yeah it gets a bit sticky. And I can see the huge problem with keeping it on a level of business transactions only. I kind of bounced the idea around about giving the sellers codes the buyers could use and have that password protected with that code, but then what would stop sellers from giving that code to their friends, family, Palo the pool guy, or going to the Mexican border and handing it out saying it is the code to become a citizen. So I guess the way it is now is about as good as it can get without massive headaches and investment so I will live with that.

 

[WebSlave]

Rich,
I will take you up on that later today, as I have much work yet to do while the sun is still up. I don't think I personally have a dog in the hunt, in that no one had said, nor had I taken, that my name was trashed. But I did mention the rumor in this thread, although it had already been mentioned by an earlier poster here, and in that vein cannot back away from involvement. I do think that obligates me, with the permission that you have granted, to give it a look, and report my feedback here. I regret having carried that water for whomever made the original claim, but think that the opportunity to clear it up now speaks droves of how Fauna conducts itself.

I understand Jim, and do apologize if this is a burden on your shoulders. I seriously doubt that anyone here would consider us as "chums" and you would pull your punches in order to avoid offending me. And as mentioned Wendy is a resource as well to verify that nothing has been altered within that forum and is still exactly as it was (not including posts added since then, of course) a few days ago.

I think that if you see anything even remotely "abusive" towards any members, it will likely be in that thread I posted there concerning the thread over on Kelli's site. But I doubt anyone will be surprised about that.

 

[WebSlave]

Rich,

Don't take it so personally guy. People do this type of stuff all the time. You and I went through this a while back and came to a solution and made ammends. Do I agree on this banning? Honestly I have only one opinion on it and it is this. As you are the owner of this site you can do what you feel is best for yourself and other members at your whim. If someone doesn't like that fact I would suggest they find another forum to call home. As for keeping "people like that" out of the forum as Dand suggested, I guess I am a little more diverse that the average fauna member.

Me personally I just don't have the time to get my boxers in a bunch over some trivial behind the back talk, and I am sure you don't either. SO my opinion on what you do is quite simple. Do what you want and if someone doesn't like it tough.

Let me address this before I go off and get some work done.

Yes, I am fully aware that there are a number of people who have gotten suspended and fined, banned, or left this site voluntarily who enjoy nothing better then cutting myself and this site down. And honestly, I could not care less about their thoughts or feelings. Those are just sour grape comments from people who in the most part made the bed they are now sleeping in. What irked me about this affair was that those comments made on a PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE forum were from people currently USING this site and in my opinion being two faced about the relationship. A few were moderators, all the while during their tenure obviously privately discussing such invective among themselves while plotting some sort of coup of the leopard gecko community. I certainly don't have any problem with Kelli setting up her own website. That sort of thing happens all of the time. Heck I openly accept advertising from sites that most normal people would consider as direct competitors to this site. Heck, I even accepted advertising from Chris Johnson for his own directly competing website, and I am sure everyone knows that he and I did NOT get along well together. Doesn't bother me in the least. That sort of "competition" thing just does not bother me. If people find another site more to their liking, hey, have at it. I would be the first one to advise someone not happy here to go on to somewhere else better fitting to their wants.

What bothers me about THIS issue is the manner in which it was done. That puts it in a whole different category, in my opinion. And yes I am fully aware that the world is just chock full of underhanded, mean spirited, spitefull and back stabbing people. But I don't have to like it, and I certainly do not have to welcome them into my home. Nor do I have to assist them in any way by allowing them to continue USING me and this site while sticking the knife in my back.

Anyway, I hope the distinction here is clear.

 

[ShannanD25]

You all can't tell, those of you who have posted, that you have NEVER said something nasty about someone behind their back. That is human nature. Not all of us would have posted it in a public forum, but if we thought that forum was closed and only open to the group of people we were chatting with, how many of you would have done THE SAME.
I read the comments that were written, then came here and read what SOME of those who were bashed had to say ..TRUTH does hurt doesn't it. I never really had an opinion on many people here, simply because my social circle does not include on line forums. I have an educational opinion, as in , is this person a benefit to me to learn from, or am I better talking to the wall? Can I ask questions and converse or will this person simply irritate me in their postings? The ones who were banned I never had a problem with. I thought and still do, think, very highly of their experience and knowledge. A few of who they were ranting about were ones that even, in my limited use, annoyed me and I never bothered with. Not all, as most I never really chatted with nor knew in any form. But they did. Aside from some of the younger, jump on the bandwagon ranters who really turned this ugly, what was said should be looked at as you know what, some of those hit the nail right on the head. SOME, not all. And considering those people who posted use this forum ALOT, I think they have a strong basis to form that opinion versus someone like me who visits once and awhile...
AND TME, saying that person who "turned them in" or what ever it was, slipped my mind what you said, and I think it was you who said it, yours was a post I just skimmed since I don't regularly read what you write...that person is called a traitor....THAT PERSON is who caused this. Everyone talks about one another....GET OVER IT. It hurts...it sucks, but it is done. Figure out if those comments by people who have a strong basis to form their opinions have any meaning or accuracy and then move on and see what you can change in your behavior, if a change is warranted.
What makes this high school ish is that person who tattle tailed...groups of people talking about one another, well there is no maturity level assigned to that, as EVERYONE does it. Running and telling and starting a drama like this whose effects will be long felt is malicious and childish.
And to whoever quoted what I had said (I'm sorry the memory is gone from meds. swear I feel old at times) Yes, different people do carry different weight in forums. Lets say I have Jack and Jill in my forum. Jack has 15 years experience and Jill is some punk 14 yr old who still uses heat rocks. They both bash me for whatever reason in another forum. I'd be very quick to want to remove Jill, as what does she truly contribute? (And here is where my admin folks discuss it and talk with her about it) But Jack? That would suck having to bite my tongue and grin and bear it. But his 15 years experience to offer to my forum outweighs my personal hurt. Yes I would want to ban him, say nasty things, and all that. WE ALL would want to react like that to someone who bashes us. Another human nature thing. we all talk about one another, we all get hurt and lash out....but where does it stop? Where does someone say, you know what, this is not good for this forum, it stops now and this is what I am going to do to repair the damage done?

Everyone is saying, well they have shown their true colors! Guess what, those are your colors too, you just have never gotten caught yet. So Lucille, go ahead and give bad guy votes to those who hurt your feelings, that reflects on you. And TME, well, go ahead and pat that traitor on the back, invite that person into your group and see how quick they turn on you to benefit themselves...that is about the stupidest thing to say and do...

So when someone throws a stone at you, do you throw one back? Or do you just turn and leave it be as maybe it really isn't worth it...Time is short. Time is so precious...you don't know when it is over...and is name calling and lashing out , while damaging two forums and their educational strenghts, really worth it?

 

[norsmis]

Shannan I can see your point to some degree. BUT, I see Rich's point better. Trust is enormous with me and as I see it, they broke that trust. They openly bashed him and other moderators. Whether you want to believe it or not, this type of behaviour is NOT normal. Maybe its normal for you, but not me. If I don't like you, I will tell you to your face, not on some forum. Again, Griz hit it right on the head when he said the true character of people is shown by their actions when no one is watching (or in this case, when they THOUGHT no one was watching). He trusted some of these people to be moderators on HIS site that he built from scratch. After the comments they made do you really expect him to trust these people? I don't care if they have 200 years experience, it does not over ride the fact they bashed the moderators and OWNER of this site openly. High school drama? You bet it is. But not on Rich's part.....

 

[bcfos]

You all can't tell, those of you who have posted, that you have NEVER said something nasty about someone behind their back. That is human nature.

Let me get this straight in everyone's mind in case they have forgotten exactly how I am. I will say it to someone's face if the feeling hits me. Hell I will even go shout it from the highest building in town if I feel the action fits the cause. I don't hide it, won't hide it either. Sure if someone's name comes up in a conversation I don't like you will know right quick I don't like that person. And if that person goes running to that other person to tell them I don't like them they will get the "Oh trust me I already know" spill from them.

 

[ShannanD25]

Not everyone has the...well, we'll say guts, to confront someone they have an issue with. Most of the time I don't. I have piped up on occaision, but just keeping it in is more my way. I am the type that just doesn't say anything at all. Now if I am in with a group of close friends, then I might say, you know what, so and so, well this and that....and that is what happened. No one knew that forum was public. It does n ot make it right by any means....but to say this directly relates to those involved character and business practices is wrong...we all handle issues with other people in different ways, but we all have issues with other people...
In a perfect world, if you have an issue with another person you should be able to confront them and deal with it, not bring it out without their knowledge...but this is not a perfect world and human's are not perfect and we all handle things differently, but that does not make us horrible, unethical, bad business people...it makes us stupid for putting it in writting...
I'm not saying rich is childish or that his actions are not warranted. I just think they are more emotionally based and may not be to the benefit of the forum, that is all. Now those casting bad guy votes and patting traitors on the back...that is a bit out of hand...
I think both forums could be very strong educational sources, but to do that you need to be able to grin and bear things that happen elsewhere to best benefit the forum. It sucks. But whose benefit should come first? Your forums, or yours?

 

[norsmis]

I understand that also. My wife is very kind hearted and nonconfrontational (the exact opposite of me) and she will let people take advantage of her and will not stand up for herself in many situations. BUT, I do believe the actions we take in dealing with people on a personal level in general does shed light on how we conduct ourselves in business. If I would lie to or cheat on my wife (I would never do either honey in case you reading), I am sure I would have no problem cheating on my taxes or charging the customer a little extra.... Character is character. I was always taught that if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. If someone will talk about you behind your back and smile to your face...... Well that is not someone I would trust with my website or my money.... Just MHO....

 

[Chameleon Company]

Analysis complete.

Rich granted me access to the Forum Moderators Site, so that I could review it and comment on the accusations that it had been used as a place to bash Fauna members. I concur with Rich's characterization in choosing me:

I seriously doubt that anyone here would consider us as "chums" and you would pull your punches in order to avoid offending me.

That forum is relatively new, appearing to only have been active for about 7 weeks, and can only be accessed, read, and contributed to by Fauna moderators. I read every post in every thread in less than 30 minutes, as it has not been in existence long enough to become a long read.

I saw not one single incidence of the spontaneous name-dropping of members in a derogatory fashion. There was very little name-dropping of members what-so-ever. The only derogatory comments made about members (all now ex-members) were in the context of a response to an accusation or negative comment made by the member (and I believe the target was an ex-Mod in every case) relative to the thread in Kelli's new site that caused this brouhaha. While some were unflattering, all were in response to specific actions by ex-members which were viewed as insults aimed at Fauna and specific members and moderators of Fauna. None of these comments elaborated beyond this context, that being a context of "disappointment", and I saw nothing that I would characterize as a "cheap shot". There is not one single incidence of the bad-mouthing of an existing member.

The bulk of the discussion in longer threads seemed to center around Rich's efforts to maintain standards amongst his moderators. I saw objectively high standards being discussed and enforced. I did not expect less, and my confidence was pleasantly reinforced.

There were issues between moderators. I believe that is a main purpose for this closed forum. All disagreements were conducted professionally IMO. While I do not know Rich's specific goals for that forum, all that I saw would support any generic goals that I would assume for such a forum.

My only disappointment is that it takes time away from the ability of these people to post elsewhere in the site. That is unavoidable.

My conclusion is that the entire Moderator's Forum, to date, reflects very well on Rich and his Moderator Staff. While I envy not being able to join in some of the good discussions there, and I DO NOT want to be a moderator, I think that Forum a good thing, and that it has served all Members well.

While I had indicated it would be later today before I could get to this, once I took a peek at the threads, and saw their relative brevity, I saw no need to put it off. Thank you for the opportunity Rich.