Kill all the lawyers,...except ours

[thesnakeman]

Yesterday, I called the Federal Wildlife Office in Atlanta to check on giving skins to Matt's project, {all is kosher with that as far as the Feds are concerned}. And to inquire about a breeding loan I am working on between myself, and Zoo Atlanta. While the Zoo and I are enthusiastic about the possibilities, the Federal officials seem only interested in getting their hundred bucks as many times as possible, and making me fill out the same packet of papers as many times as possible. As far as the actual laws which regulate such are concerned, I have read the whole thing, but to me it just sounds like blah, Blah, blah. I just can't get my brain around it all. When I start asking questions, I get a slightly different answer from each person I talk to, including Victoria Davis. So it is difficult to know how to legally proceed. I think Vic is a very nice, helpful, and kind person, but she is no lawyer either. And even if she was a lawyer, she works for the Feds. And if a person isn't extremely careful, they could very easily find themselves in hot water by listening to the wrong opinion. And when you get into indigo snakes, you eventually find yourself facing legal ambiguity with regard to the interstate commerce permit system, and associated laws. Personally I think it's time for an overhaul of the system, but,...until then, it would be very nice if we, [the indigo breeding community], had an expert to interpret the law and or go to bat for us if need be. It would be nice if we had a lawyer, or law firm on our side to help guide us, and keep everyone, including the government honest, and out of trouble. It would be nice if we had an expert to ask. So I am making the following proposal;

Lets find a way to retain a lawyer, or lawyers for all of us. That way the next time there is a question about this mess, he/she/they can guide us, and protect us so that we can continue to work with the species we love, without fear of crossing some ambiguous legal line. We can all rest easier knowing we have someone on our side who does understand the associated regulations, and has our best intrest at heart.

I have been talking about Indigos Forever, and how I plan to raise money with it. I think this is one more thing we will be raising money for. But I also think that in order to enjoy the benefits of such, each person should have to belong to the breeders association/Indigos Forever,[yet to be officially formed] and pay appropriate dues, or make appropriate contributions, and follow our guidelines for husbandry and breeding. With legal council we can then protect ourselves from legal problems, and we can make Indigos Forever and the breeders association into an official, legal, not for profit entity. I think at some point it will have to happen anyway, so it may as well be sooner, rather than later. This way, when we start thinking about doing anything like breeding loans, or taking DNA samples, etc., we don't have to decide for ourselves what is the best legal course of action. We don't have to rely on friends, or Federal employees to give us good sound legal advice. We can ask our experts. And they will work for our best intrest instead of having to rely on friends and the feds to tell us how to proceed. As it stands now, the folks at Atlanta could tell me that I have to strip naked, paint myself green, and sing the associated Muppet song in public in order to be legal, and I would really have no choice but to comply if I wanted to proceed with diversification of the captive gene pool. With a lawyer, I could simply say no, I don't think so, and here's why. Or my lawyer could tell them for me.

It may also be important to note that I was informed that there are those in the Federal Government who would seek to put a stop to all private possesion, breeding and commerce of indigo snakes. They would rather that regular folks were hands off, and take away what we love. And if they get the chance, they'll do it. One way to keep them from getting that chance, and to fight them if they try, is to retain legal council. I am going to do it. Wether this council works for me, and or the rest of the private breeder community, is up to you all. Let me know what you think, and how we can make this happen for all of us. But if you wish to enjoy the associated benefits of such, you'll have to pony up some bucks with me.
T.

 

[Chris R]

Money for Legal Counsel

Afternoon,

I'll pony up some cash for the cause. It'd be nice to find out why exports to Canada can't happen. Our indigos are, I'm sure, weakened because of the lack of genetic diversity.

Thanks,

Chris Rodgers
Ontario, Canada

 

[Lucille]

I am currently enrolled in an animal law course and am studying one of the few animal law textbooks. Unless you already have someone in mind I can give you the name of the editors of the text and they may be able to suggest an expert who may have your same interests.

 

[thesnakeman]

Yes please! Let's find that expert. After we find the right one, and determine costs, I'll pass the hat.
T.

 

[Lucille]

I am emailing that info to you.

 

[epidemic]

Policy and procedure

First, I believe this is a wonderful idea and have proposed such in the past, though nothing came of it. However, times change, as do opinions, and I believe enough government regulation restricting the captive husbandry of herpetofauna amongst the private sector has occurred to create a stir amongst the community and make everyone realize they are not totally immune or flying under the radar from such. Having said that, there are several attorneys who are involved in herpetoculture or the keeping of herpetofauna as pets and I believe such should be approached to this regard, as they would have a vested interest in such matters. Also, I do not believe such an endeavor should be limited to the keeping of D. couperi alone, but rather anyone and everyone who maintains herpetofauna, as we are but a fraction of the community being affected by legislators making uninformed decisions and one only need to visit a few different forums to realize this.
Chris, the borders are not completely closed for the importation / exportation of D. couperi into and out of the US, but the process is more stringent and the division which handles the issuance of international permits contends such should only be granted for specimens to be utilized for educational purposes, while the division handling domestic interstate commerce permits tends to favor captive husbandry projects. With a good deal of patience, paper work and perseverance, you should have no problems acquiring such a permit.
In closing, I would like to remind everyone, the government agencies involved with the protection of wildlife cannot restructure themselves or the regulations they are positioned to maintain and enforce, as all such activities must be approved by congress at the federal level and state senates at the state level, both of which rely on information provided them from the organizations involved and various members of the public to make informed decisions.
As for the number of times one must complete the permit process, such is based solely upon government policy and procedure and there really is very little that will change this, as such is the life blood of government.

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

It might be a more expensive and difficult project than it seems.For example, many lawyers use Westlaw for research, but do not subscribe outside their own State,and its related Federal District/Circuit.

Therefore,for a Florida lawyer like myself, for example, in dealing with an indigo issue arising in California, I would have to go to the national Federal sources,California Federal sources,and California state law,and the client would have to pay for the higher out of area research costs.

Plus,it always takes more time($) to research out of state law and MANY lawyers will refuse to even do so because it is much more difficult to use the resources,and they are concerned with their own liability in unfamilar areas.....

 

[epidemic]

Good to hear from you, Lloyd!

I was hoping you would interject some of you wisdom into this thread, and while I thought about it, I didn't want to call you out! ;0)
Thank you for your insight and sharing your wisdom to this regard...

Thanks again,

Jeff

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I was hoping you would interject some of you wisdom into this thread, and while I thought about it, I didn't want to call you out! ;0)

Not a problem, Jeff.

If I did not live in Florida, I probably would have already researched many of these issues for my own information, but I figured it a waste of time.

I did actually talk to a guy with a Florida permit this week, I felt I was in the presence of a unicorn.......

 

[epidemic]

It's too bad the "Sunshine State" will not issue incidental take permits, to allow for D. couperi to be collected by those willing to work with the species from areas designated for development. I'd love to move back to Florida, as would my wife, but I just couldn't part with the snakes I have worked so long and hard for and with.
Now that you've found a unicorn, I guess it's time to start looking for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!

Thanks again, Lloyd,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

ZOO Atlanta dumped me!!

Well folks, I am just flabbergasted. When I told the folks at Zoo Atlanta that I was checking with the Federal Office about permits,...they dumped me. They called off the deal that we had already made. I'm not going to post all the correspondence, but it looks fishy to me. On one hand, I had Victoria Davis from the Federal office telling me we would need multiple permits, and on the other hand, I had Zoo Atlanta telling me to trust them, and that "NO" federal permits were needed. So when I told them that I would contact the person in charge at the Federal office, they seemed to get nervous. When I suggested that I would go along with the zoo as long as they would agree to take care of me legally, /....they just flat out dumped me. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I approach something with the potential to cause me copious amounts of trouble, I try to be extremely cautious. The Zoo did not seem to understand that. Nor did they seem to care. When I called Dr. Brad Lock at the zoo today, he initially tried to tell me that someone from Georgia, with indigos had contacted them, and was wanting to do the same thing for them. But when I inquired further, he got noticeably angry, and he admitted that my concerns, and inquiries about Federal permits was the real problem. They did not want to attract Federal attention. And they did not want to provide me with legal council if the deal went south.

As I understand it, the Federal folks do not look at private breeders quite the same as zoos and institutions. So zoos, and academic institutions don't have as much to worry about. But private individuals need to be very careful! So all I was trying to do was to clarify that difference, and define what my legal responsibilities are. I was not trying to cause trouble, but rather make sure that there would be NO trouble prior to the deal. And for whatever reason, Zoo Atlanta didn't like that. So they dumped me. Now I will not be doing a breeding loan with them. And that is sad.

So now I am back to square one. And I still don't know for sure what is legally required for such a breeding loan. I still don't understand the law. And we still don't have legal council to explain the law to us, and guide us through the labyrinth of legal mumbo jumbo. And we still don't have a lawyer to defend us, or keep us from doing something wrong in the first place. All I really want is to have someone who is a lawyer, who understands the Federal Interstate Commerce Permit system, who is willing to answer our questions about such. Yes, I am sure there are regular folks out there who do understand the law, and would be more than happy to explain it. But I learned from my experience in the Army to NEVER take legal advice from someone who is not a lawyer. We used to call those guys, "sh*t house lawyers".

What if we could find a lawyer, or lawyers who would be willing to take a close look at the interstate commerce law, and translate it into plain English, and post the translation on a website, or answer questions about it on a forum? That way regular folks like me could know what the hell is required without asking a buddy, and without asking the folks at the Federal office. And then if the Feds want to make an issue, we could refer them to this lawyer or lawyers. The problem is not individual state laws,...the problem is that damned Federal Interstate Commerce Permit,...which, by the way, was originally written for the railroad. We don't need to worry about individual states at this time. Just the Feds.

Or maybe we need to contact a herper in Congress and just re-write the dawgawn law, so that everyone understands what they need to do, in every case, without legal council,...no offense. I know we need to do something, because the status quo SUX BIG TIME!!!
T.

 

[epidemic]

Loans and Gifts

Tony,

This link lays it out in plain english. Read the paragraph entitled "Loans and Gifts" on the 3rd page, as it explains the regulations surrounding such. As you can see, no permits are required for breeding lonas, or the division of offspring incurred from such a loan, with the excpetion of those being sold or traded to a thrid party...

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/permits.pdf#search="interstate commerce permit breeding loans"

Again, I am sorry to hear about what occurred, but interstate commerce permits were not required for the scenario you described.

Now, to move forward with plan "B"


Best regards,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

Jeff,
Sorry bro, but this issue is not settled just yet. Here's why. I called the Federal office in Atlanta today. I talked to Gloria Bell, who is the person that signs each permit. She also says that a permit is required. If the feds say you need a permit, then you'd better get one, unless you have one helluva lawyer! So I had her send me the document to which you have provided a link. I looked at it and found the paragraph about breeding loans. The way I read it, I would have to agree with Jeff. It looks to me like there is no permit required for said activity. So I have asked for clearifacation as to why a permit is required, even though, it clearly says a permit is not required. I am waiting for a response. I have been assured that they will answer me tomorrow. And I will keep you updated. One way or another, I will get this mess cleared up. If I have to drive to D.C. to the main office and raise holy hell with the M.M.F.I.C., then that's what I'll do! But I will get this straightened out! One way or another we are going to get ALL parties on the same sheet of music. PERIOD. If the governing authority and the people who are trying to do said activity are in conflict about how it needs to be done, there will ultimatly be problems. And the folks who will suffer will be folks like me. And THAT is not acceptable. So lets see what they tell me next, and we'll go from there. Who knows maybe we'll have to sue the Federal Government to fix this. I sure hope not. But as it stands now, I agree that no permit should be required.
T.

 

[epidemic]

get off the phone and write!

You're taking a desk jockey for their word. Slap them with their own policy and procedure, as written, and they will do an abrupt about face. You can also ask them to provide you a written copy of the regulation indicating a permit is required for a breeding loan; they might even be amazed they don't have one.
I believe it would be a good idea to quit calling and start making your inquiries in writing, as it is too easy for them to give you a generic answer over the phone and that sounds like what you are getting; If in doubt, tell em’ they need a permit.
Anyhow, all government policy and procedure must be in writing. What I have sent you is directly from their policy and procedure guidelines, in writing. What you are being told over the phone is a line of crap.
I, for one, would smile, say thank you for your input and abide by what is in writing..

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

Yup, I'm doing both. They are going to have to prove to me {IN WRITING} why I need a permit for a breeding loan, which contradicts what is obviously in black and white. Gloria Bell read this same paragraph to me over the phone, and had me agreeing with her! But when I read what it says for myself, which both you, and her, showed me the same thing, I agree with you. So tomorrow, I am going to make them explain why I need a permit, even though it says I don't. And they will explain it to me in writing, or they will meet me in person. And when I recieve either an explanation or a retraction in writing, I will post it right here! Bet that! They simply cannot go around telling folks they need to apply for a hundred dollar permit, multiple times for the same deal, when what is written in black and white, and it clearly states otherwise. Either that, or they will have to change what it says in black and white. And that would take an act of congress.
T.

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Couple questions come to mind:

Why is the zoo "afraid of Federal attention"?
Does this breeding loan violate the zoo's Georgia state permit?

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Another question:

Isn't there a AZA regulation which restricts zoos from dealing with nonzoos??

 

[epidemic]

I seriously doubt the zoo is "afraid" of drawing federal attention, but frustrated with the individual continually questioning whether permits are required for such, as USF&W policy indicates permits are not required for breeding loans or the division of offspring produced by such, so long as the offspring are divided between the recipient of the loan and the individual / institution providing the specimen on loan. Now, any specimens produced from a loan being traded or sold, outside the state of origin, would require USF&W interstate wildlife permits.
As for AZA regulations pertaining to accredited institutions dealing with private vendors, there are no hard and fast rules to this regard, but many zoological institutions chose to deal with other accredited institutions and the AZA actually prefers such. You would be surprised at the number of specimens zoological institutions acquire from private vendors and breeders, with the exception of some species maintained as assurance colonies and species survival projects…

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

The only reason I "continually question", is because I am getting two different answers for the same question! And the folks who are really supposed to know, { the government who writes, and enforces that law}, don't seem to. Therefore I must find out for myself exactly what is required BEFORE I proceed, as I refuse to break, bend, or weasel around the law, and simply go along with what someone tells me, and get myself in trouble! In my mind, the law should be clear cut and simple for those to which it applies to understand. And the folks who oversee the enforcement of that law should be on the same page with me, and the person I am trying to work with. That way we can all rest easy in knowing that the law is not being violated. And the Atlanta Zoo did not dump me until I asked if they would cover my ass along with theirs. They wanted me to simply go along with what they said, and not worry if everything is legal, and not expect them to help me, if they got me into trouble. And that ain't right! Therefore it only makes sense to try and verify what is legal, and what is not, prior to any dealings, in order to avoid any legal problems. Right? Or should I have just taken the Zoo's word for it, and hoped for the best? I don't think so. My experience in life has taught me that the more someone tells me not to worry about something, the more I should worry about it!
T.

 

[epidemic]

Tony,

You know I love you like a brother, but you said it yourself! Quit listening to what people are telling you and go by what is in writing! The written policy can still be found on the third page of the link I posted, under the title Gifts and Loans!
Interstate commerce permits are just that, permits for the interstate COMMERCE of species amended to the ESA.
A breeding loan is not commerce, as you are not receiving funds or other COMMERCIAL compensation for such and neither is the zoo. Should the USF&W scream foul, let them have their day in court and slap them with their own policy and procedure, as I doubt they would be able to persuade a jury you violated any of their regulations.
Anyhow, do what you feel is right to get to the bottom of this, but in the long run, I feel as though you are only going to find you wasted a lot of time and opportunities, only to realize the desk jockeys you have been talking to have been dishing out incorrect information. Heck, if breeding loans require interstate permits, you can bet every accredited zoo in the US is, has or will be in violation of such, but this is not the case, as interstate commerce permits are not required for breeding loans or bonafide gifts.
So far as I am concerned, you are beating a dead horse, but I know you will do what you want and feel you must do, so go get em’ and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor…

Jeff