Kill all the lawyers,...except ours

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

And the Atlanta Zoo did not dump me until I asked if they would cover my ass along with theirs. They wanted me to simply go along with what they said, and not worry if everything is legal, and not expect them to help me, if they got me into trouble. And that ain't right! .

Candidly, expecting an equal partner in a deal to agree to indemnify you legally is asking a lot....

 

[thesnakeman]

Yup.
and Yup. But it sure let me know where I stand. Alone. And that smarted just a bit. E I have folks whos job it is to know this stuff, telling me two different things. No, not just folks I know. The gal at the zoo who's job it is, and the gal at the federal office, who's job it is, were both telling me two different things. Is it not wise then to check it out, and be sure? Holy crap!!! Anyone want to buy my wole collection right now!? I'm about that close to it. Let me tell ya! I'm getting tired of messing with it. Trust me! I'm not beating this dead horse because I enjoy it, I'm doing it because we need to know.

I just heard from a Mr. Jack Albert, I think, from the Atlanta Federal Office on my cell. He left a voicemail message which, in short stated that because there is the expectation of "EVENTUAL OFFSPRING" potentially being sold by me, even offspring of those offspring, that it would be considered commerce because there is the assumption of future commerce on my part, even though I would not be selling any of those babies. But because they would be raised and bred in the future for commerce. And that this what I am told is the current official position of the Atlanta Regional office. He further stated that they will verify that with the office in D.C., and if this is correct, they will change the wording, to clarify. I have saved this message to my cell archives.

Guys, as for beating a dead horse,... maybe. Oh well, it's dead anyway. Maybe I'll kickem a couple times too. LoL I just think it's imparative for all of us to know what's what.

Am I the first private couperi breeder who is not zoo, or academically affiliated to attempt a breeding loan with a zoo? Just curious. And how is a common man like me supposed to know exactly what to do unless he checks with the feds? And if the folks who are supposed to know, ...don't, and they are telling me the wrong stuff, shouldn't I try to get them to stop that? And what differnce would it make if the zoo were within my state of residence? Would it matter to them then? That's another question I will ask.
T.

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Change the wording of what? The Endangered Species Act, a Federal law? Not unless this guy is in Congress, he's not......

However, we need to check the actual law itself, to make sure it conforms to the "lay language" pdf which Jeff linked to.

Heck with it, now I'm annoyed enough at the guy's arrogance to do the research.

Tony,send me a pm next week to remind me(I'm busy tommorrow and Friday)and I will check the statute then for you, if you'd like.

 

[epidemic]

YAY! Lloyd's on board!

This is very interesting, Tony,

I find it fascinating; a member of the federal government believes he can enforce policy based on "assumption" and change federal legislation on a whim. As Lloyd indicated, not unless he's Congress! Not to mention, such an action would take at least one year, unless a special session were called, which I doubt will happen on behalf of the eastern indigo. In the mean time, they can only enforce the policy as written, not their own personal interpretation of such.
Okay, T. I'm calling you on that offer! I will buy the bunch from you! ;0)
Now, go ponder that one, while I write up an adendum to my current permit application and cut the feds another check, to add the rest of your snakes to my acquisition!
Tony, I am actually happy you are willing to go to such lengths, but you know I worry about you at times! Now, I think we need to plan an October trout fishing trip, as to give our minds a break!

Best regards,

Jeff

 

[thesnakeman]

Did somebody say "fishin"?!!! LET"S GO!!!!

Lloyd, Thanks. But I think he meant that they would change the wording of the "lay language" in the pdf file which is posted for easy reference, not the actual law. They will change it to better discribe what the law says. They're contacting D.C. to find out for sure just what the law says. I just think it's imperative that we all know exactly what the law says, and what the government expects, and that we all understand it. Although I am sure that Atlanta Zoo has already black listed me so I'll never get another opportunity like that again. But at least the next guy will know for sure, and the Federal folks in Atlanta will know for sure, and there won't be any more guessing, or assuming. Maybe you should look at it too, just to keep everyone honest. If you do, I'll be forever grateful!

Another thing I'd like to clarify is this. When I asked the zoo if they would take care of me if we got into hot water, I never actually expected them to say yes. What I thought they would say is something like,..." We can't protect you, but go ahead and check out things, and get your permit if need be, and we'll be ready to go then." I never expected them to just dump me though. That was real a shocker for me! I still think it was rude, and just a little shady.

As for selling my collection, the price is $50,000,...cash,..takes everything, snakes, cages, equipment, food in the freezer ect. This mess gets so frustrating sometimes. Especially when all I want is to work with these animals, and not get into trouble, and I can't seem to find out how to do that. It almost looks like they want me to screw up so they can get rid of me. I'd rather have the 50 grand.
T.

 

[thesnakeman]

Well that's about final I reckon

While I was outside putting air in tires, I received a voicemail message, [bad reception], from the Federal Office in Atlanta. This time from Debbi Fuller. She says that D.C. agrees with this interpretation and is going to change the information on the fact sheet. So I reckon unless a lawyer wants to argue with them about it, that's the way it will have to be. Seems funky to me, but I am no lawyer, and I don't understand the actual law so,...I suppose we'll wait and see what changes they make to the info sheet now. I saved this message also. It will be interesting to see how they word it now. Hopefully they will explain the difference between zoos and myself.
T.

 

[thesnakeman]

I checked the wording again, and it still looks ambiguous to me. It appears to say two different things at once. And it does not look to me like they changed anything yet. It looks like they just want to have an excuse to bust people no matter what they do. If that's not entrapment, I don't know what is! At a minimum, it looks like they want to collect all the hundred dollar permit fees they can get. Where does all that money go? I'd like to see records of that!

The other day when Debbi Fuller left that message, she said, "I'm sorry you didn't get the answer you were looking for". On the contrary,...I wasn't looking for any particular answer. I was just looking for clarification. And as far as I'm concerned, I still don't have it. I think this whole damned thing SUX!!! How in the hell is a guy like me supposed to know what to do, or not do!?

So here is what I propose. A NATIONAL HERP SOCIETY. Complete with our own legal council, and lobbyists. So again I ask for volunteers. And lets file a law suit to make the Feds fix this.
T.

 

[thesnakeman]

Now we wait and see,...

Today I sent two coppies of this letter to the main office in Washington, D.C. I sent one copy electronically, and one paper copy via snail mail.

Dear Sir or Ma'am,
I am a private breeder of captive bred/born eastern indigo snakes. Which is an E.S.A. listed species. In an effort to diversify the gene pool within my own collection, and thus the entire captive gene pool, I seek breeding loans, and gifts with zoos and other private breeders accross the country. I have obtained my current breeding stock through legal means with the Federally issued Interstate Commerce Permits. Recently I had a breeding loan agreement worked out with Zoo Atlanta. But due to the ambiguous nature of the wording on your information fact sheet, and a disagreement over it's interpretation, that deal has fallen apart. And I suspect that I will be black listed by all zoos. Simply because I tried to do the right thing.

I need clarifacation on policy and law regarding the Interstate Commerce Permit as it alledgedly applies to "Breeding Loans and Gifts" of the eastern indigo snake. At the following pdf; http://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/permits.pdf

I need this clarifacation IN WRITING< ON PAPER Please.

Under the paragraph entitled "Loans and Gifts", it seems to say two different things. It says that I do, and I don't need a permit to do a breeding loan. There will be no commerce directly associated with this loan. Only possibly 4-5 years down the line. {If} we get babies from this breeding loan, those babies would become a permanent part of my collection, and would NOT BE SOLD. After those babies have grown up, those animals would then, hopefully, be bred by me, and {second generation babies} would then be sold, traded, bartered, or gifted. But with this initial breeding loan, there would be no commerce. Any first generation offspring from this breeding loan would be divided between myself and the zoo. There would be no money, trade or barter taking place from this loan. Only maybe, someday, down the road, after I have raised these babies to adulthood, and attempt to breed them with other animals in my collection. Then if I am lucky enough to obtain {second generation} babies, those babies would then be sold, traded, bartered, or gifted, the same as the babies I produce now. And then, and only then should the permit process come into play. There would be no commerce, and therfore no permit associated with the initial breeding loan, or any possible {first generation} babies from that breeding.

But several people at your Atlanta office have told me that this interpretation is incorrect. I was told by Victoria Davis, Gloria Bell, Debbi Fuller, and a man named Jack Albert, I think, that because the initial breeding loan would be associated with {{{possible future commerce}}}, that I would need, not one, but multiple Interstate Commerce Permits. Even though this breeding loan had no commerce involved. And Debbi Fuller told me that she clarified this with the Washington office. So now I am contacting you directly, myself, because this still does not make sense to myself, and other indigo breeders.

So could someone please clarify this for me? I need to see written documentation, supported by current Federal Law, which {{explains}} why this is so. If it is NOT so, then I need to see changes made to the above listed fact sheet pdf, which is posted on your website. Due to this confusion, there is a number of people, and organizations who now do not know what to do. And I feel that this should come directly from the top of the chain of command, directly from the main office in Washington D.C. And it should be passed down to all offices, however it turns out. I am not looking for any particular answer. My only objective is to obtain clarifacation which makes sense to everyone, is supported by law, allows the proposed activity, and is easy to understand and follow. Can you please help me? I'm going to send a paper copy of this inquiry to your office in D.C. I await your reply. Please feel free to contact me for any questions you may have. Thanks in advance for your help. Sincerely,

Anthony Carlisle

Now we wait and see.
T.

 

[thesnakeman]

Waiting.
T.

 

[thesnakeman]

WHAT THE*$#*$#($$)^&==7

I do not know if they got a permit for this YET. But you can bet your last buck, I will find out.

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Posted by: Carmichael at Tue Nov 14 18:59:15 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

It looks like you never really get away from them! I just acquired a HUMONGOUS 16 year old wild caught female couperi from Zoo Atlanta (thanks Brad!). It is my hope to introduce some brand new bloodlines into our limited captive gene pool (Eric, drop me an email). The big question is whether or not an old female can still produce but she has excellent weight, muscle tone and seems to be the picture of good health. Keeping my fingers crossed.....I'll be holding on to the hatchlings and Zoo Atlanta will get half if she produces. I also acquired another virgin adult female; sheesh, I better start firing up the scented candles!

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

 

[thesnakeman]

Still waiting for a reply from the government. I might have to wait a long time. But I ain't done till I'm dead.
T.