Killing 100's and 1000's for the mighty dollar

[Glenn Bartley]

jusmebabe,

I read what you said very well. In my opinion, a bit of it is maybe factual, and in my opinion a lot of it fans the flames of emotions without much factual basis. Certainly, in my view at least, you gave no factual support for your claims that the species are being wiped out by these importations. Where are the facts and figures you make reference to. You do however pour lighter fluid on the embers, so to speak, by asking questions like how many die before they arrive, and how cramped are they in boxes when they arrive and so forth. Are you sure that Ben Siegal Reptiles (I imagine that is to whom you  are referring when you say BS Reptiles) receives them dying as you imply. Are you sure he would buy from a source that sold him sickly snakes? Where is the proof that you offer? When apparently no proof is offered then yes, it seems to me, that you are fanning those flames of peoples' emotions. I just feel that if you want to bad mouth a practice of any sort, you ought to show some type of tangible evidence that is also credible. If you think you offered that proof in your original posting, please go back and quote your original post specifically on those points of evidence, maybe I missed something in that original post.

Now if you think I meant you might be one of the animal rights extremists guys, so to speak, yeah I agree I implied, in my opinion, that could be possible. I have often heard their story before, and I think it does sound akin to your's. My main point was actually for other herpers (including yourself) to be wary of what you post, because you may be tolling the death knell for our own hobby. But if you think that bad mouthing you was the main point of my posting, you obviously missed the point, in fact I hope you do not think I was bad mouthing you at all because I was not. If I ever bad mouth you, it will be obvious, I do not play with words but speak outright.

As for my main point, it was: Now the extremists types may be jumping on your bandwagon and offer the rest of us a helping hand to also jump aboard. They do this just to screw us other herpers with our own disillusionment or dissatisfaction in the herp trade - sort of a give em enough rope and watch them hang themselves type mentality. Well if you missed that, then maybe it was you who did not read what it was that I said. I actually read your post pretty carefully before I replied.

Best regards

 

[sschind]

to BPC

pretend I was a customer at your table this past weekend,  If you would, answer these questions please.

What does the c.b. stand for?

how long have you had them in your possesion?

how do you take care of them once you get them?

how many times have these fed? (refering to the CB feeding group)

what did they eat?

thanks for your time

Steve Schindler

 

[jusmebabe]

BPC, (sorry i didnt see your name)
I was being serious and not sarcastic. I do think informing potential customers about this is the least that can be done. If they choose not to get them so be it and if they choose to buy then they can't say that they weren't informed when things turn bad. I did not think you were attacking me and  have thick skin so if i ever was I would let it roll off my back. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Glenn,
your right i don't have documentation nor have I implied i did. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to see that the numbers imported month after month year after year let alone the ones captured by natives for their own uses which i can't fault them.
I didn't read the full posts only scanned them  so if I didn't reply to something I will reread later.
I did not say BS reptiles was bad in any way nor did I imply he was so try not to twist what I said. Nor have I mentioned him in any other posts.
I repeat I am not affiliated with any organization and if someone believes I am that's there issue to deal with. I buy herps i occasionally sell herps if I decide to get into something different and i trade some of my herps PERIOD.
I don't need to be wary of extremists who may be lurking as they can read classifieds and see for themselves, they can attend the shows across the country.  If problems arise from what is going on in the trade look in the mirror and not me.
I don't need to see fire when I can see the smoke.  Since you have a voice in this show me your evidence that the heavy importation has had no effect on the population of this among other heavily imported species. I bet you can get about a much as me (nada).  I not once said I have a problem with imports being sold i only spoke of those that arrive in astonishingly high numbers.
By the way we have been given enough rope to hang ourselves many times over but we manage to survive so i don't think my post will cause the herp business to cease to exist.

 

[dwedeking]

It is a common tactic by environmentalists to keep repeating a point until it is taken as truth by the general public (who do not take the time to research). This is the case with salmonella.

I've never owned a ball python, not sure where they come from, so I don't know the effect their exportation is having on the native population. So I would like documentation.

I do know that if you exported mini vans out of southern california you could do millions and there would still be too many yuppies with them here (an example) so a few 100,000 a year would scratch the surface. So it may be that the native population is so abundant that it has little effect in the large picture.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

jusmebabe,

Well I am just about played out. You seem to read my post without getting what it is about. As I stated in my original post I am not taking sides either way with your contention that Ball Pythons are being wiped out. I was offering a caution to those of us who would consider that when we go about flaming emotions without any hard cold facts, others who are not as reputable as us may use our own words against us. Yet again you say that you think I am saying you are a member of such a group, and you also call on me to show evidence for my view that ball pythons are not being wiped out, and then you say I cannot produce the evidence. Why would I produce such evidence when it is not my contention that they are either surviving or being wiped out? Now on the other hand, if you would like to see my evidence that there are extremeist groups out there who are trying to ban herp keeping completely, then I can oblige you, here are just 2 articles showing how extreme they can get.

Urge For Ban on Reptile Keeping  

andHow Extreme Can They Get  

I can show you plenty more to back my claims.

Maybe you should be wary of them, even though you say you need not be. Sure they can get info at herp shows and importers warehouses and then they can distort the truth if they want. What helps them win even more than that, is when someone in our hobby bad mouths the trade without having any hard cold fact. As I said they use our own words against us. Don't you get the point yet. At least if you decide to put down the pratices of others - make sure you are supported by facts - don't use conjecture alone - because that is just what the extremists are waiting to use against us. I am not even saying that your point of view is wrong, you may well be right; but wouldn't it be much more responsible on your part to show some evidence andstate hard cold facts?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??? If you cannot understand that then there is no use in my going on further about it.

By the way, I am not an importer, I refer to your "look to the mirror" statement. I am not in the herp trade as a business. I am a hobbyist. I have sold on a small scale to support my herp hobby. I usually captive BREED any of the herps I have sold, but will admit I have on one ocassion sold captive born ranched. I could care less if the practice of importing ball pythons stops as far as money goes. I have a real job, and that is where I make my money.

For another poster, by the way: C/B means one of two things Captive Bred and or Captive Born. The terminology has been used to mean reither for many years, a reputable dealer will gladly tell you which. In fact many dealers now use C/H for captive hatched, but there is nothing wrong with C/B to mean captive born

 

[Glenn Bartley]

By the way, you may say that you don't attack Ben Siegal Reptiles in your original post, but maybe you had better reread that too. I figured you ought to have some evidence on him too before you imply that he uses bad practices - and in  my opinion you IMPLIED that about BS Reptiles in your original post. If you or others think not, then let me show my evidence, here is an exact quote of what you printed:

"I understand the little known people doing it (yea right) but companies that don't have to are selling lots of 100 and more and it is disgusting. Yes i know they are cheap and so on but my list of who not to purchase from is growing. The main one i see lately is B.S. reptiles. Defend the practice if you will as i only want to know why a person who enjoys herps would destroy a population of wild animals. Ben Siegel i would like to know from you since you sell them. I am not attacking you but want to know first hand what goes through your mind when you see all those animals cramped into boxes and arrive at your door? I know they don't come individualy packaged. Also how many die before they even make it to your door? Please enlighten me as to your reasoning.  

Did you not say the practice of importing lots was disgusting? Did you not say that BS Reptiles is THE MAIN ONE? Did you not say defend the practice if you will, and then go on in essence to challenge BS Reptiles to defend the practice? Sure you said you are not attacking BS Reptiles (in my opinion not likely from what I read in your post however) but then you go on to say you want to know first hand what goes through your mind when he imports them! Then you state cramped conditions and ask how many die! Who is kidding whom about whether or not you are implying that BS Reptiles is not using bad practices? It seems obvious, to me at least (my opinion), that this is exactly what you have done - I certainly have not twisted your words as you say I did, afterall I just quoted you exactly as they appeared.

 

[bpc]

Steve no problem,

c.b. stands for captive born and in the case of the balls, that means born on a "farm" in Africa then shipped over.

the feeding ones 9-10 days, fresh ones 2-3 days

for your next question I think you mean how I (brian) take care of them so I'll answer that way.  The feeding ones, the ones that I have had for awhile, are housed in shoe boxes in a rack.

They are offered one meal a week and that meal is a "hopper" mouse.

Joel, you seem to have a problem w/ Ben and other importers based on numbers.  What do you feel is a reasonible amount, and what do you base those numbers on?

 

[sschind]

Brian,

thanks for responding.

Steve Schindler

 

[jusmebabe]

Brian Conley,
for the 3rd time i have no actual numbers as you don't have actual numbers so why does that keep getting repeated. If you can't see the number of ads offering them by 1000 lots then i can't make you see the numbers. You don't need a hand count to see the harm and destruction. I know, these are all cb babies and are in no way harming the wild population (yea right). I know, they are taken from a female in the wild which of course doesn't affect the numbers in the wild either (yea right). When the priviledge is lost i guess you and others will find another species to run into decline.  And for some reason you keep saying B.S repiles and i have not targeted them or anyone else. Hell i even complimented him before so stop trying turn this into something about him. This is bigger than one individual. Don't take my not replying to mean i am gone i just won't be replying to the same question anymore. If you come up with something that hasn't been asked and answered i will see you then.
Joel Holloman

 

[ajc]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jusmebabe @ May 08 2002,06:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why do this well known businesses keep trafficking in ball pythons and savannahs? I understand the little known people doing it (yea right) but companies that don't have to are selling lots of 100 and more and it is disgusting. Yes i know they are cheap and so on but my list of who not to purchase from is growing. The main one i see lately is B.S. reptiles. Defend the practice if you will as i only want to know why a person who enjoys herps would destroy a population of wild animals. Ben Siegel i would like to know from you since you sell them. I am not attacking you but want to know first hand what goes through your mind when you see all those animals cramped into boxes and arrive at your door? I know they don't come individualy packaged. Also how many die before they even make it to your door? Please enlighten me as to your reasoning.  
  Please don't make an excuse for these people such as they're habitat is being destroyed so they are helping or the numbers taken from the wild are still low. I only mentioned the two (balls and sav) as they are good examples. Times like these make me wish they're was a total ban on imports, yes a total ban on these wild caught herps. I know all the arguements but if someone is abusing a honor not a right then hell take it from them and let them find a another way to make a living. Why don't some of their peers comment on this or is this a line you don't cross. Watch and say nothing as your peers sell 100 lots of them until they no longer can sustain a pop. in th wild. We all know inport export laws mean nothing or their wouldn't be a list longer than my arm of endangered animals. Speak up those of you who do this and those who don't (so i know who else to ad to the list). Enough ranting and people, have a voice and stop buying from these people til they get the message it's not ok...  Joel Holloman</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You are saying things that you don't know are true.  Destroying the population?  Wrong.

Do you really think folks like Bob Clark, NERD and everyone else would do this if they thought that it would endanger the BP population?  I don't.

You need to read this book I got a couple weeks ago.

For all you people against buying CH babies...Maybe you should read this book before you guys keep complaining about something that you know nothing about.

Here's some examples...
Did you know?

10% of all Captive Hatched Babies are released into the wild.

The mothers are released in undisclosed locations after oviposition (egg laying).

Under CITES, the number of exported Ball Pythons is restricted by quotas, which are defined by the exporting countries. These quotas are modified according to the current status of the Ball Python population. Ghana's quotas are a smaller percentage of the total population compared to that of Benin or Togo, primarily due to Ghana's more stable economy, but for the most part all of these countries' BP populations are thriving.

Currently, the primary reason that CITES is involved is due to the huge numbers of Ball Pythons that are exported. They consider the BP trade as POTENTIALLY threatening to the Ball Python population. Key word there is "POTENTIALLY." That means that they do not consider the trade to be a threat to the population at this point.

In Ghana, the Ball Python is protected and there are 51,000+ square miles of sanctuaries, where collecting and hunting is strictly prohibited.  Yes, there are some poachers, but not enough to completely undermine these efforts.

The ranching programs are monitored and the export traders are only allowed to collect a certain number of males and females...much like our hunting regulations.

In Ghana, the "ranches" have an 85% hatch rate, which is much higher than in the wild. Add that to the factor that there are no predators to eat the eggs...not bad.  Then remember that they're releasing 10% of those.

I got this info out of a book I purchased...There's a lot more cool info in it. It was originally written in German, so the translation is a little funny (i.e. the word "heterozygotic" is used a lot! lol) But, it's a great source of hard data collected by CITES, etc. as well as pictures. This book appears old, but it was written in 2000. It shows a lot of pictures from NERD, as well as a pic of Ralph Davis' Platinum (before it was even named) and several other morphs, some of which will really give you "morph paranoid" people a coronary. =P

The name of the book is... "Ball Pythons - Habitat, care and breeding"

The author is Stefan Broghammer.

 

[ajc]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jusmebabe @ May 17 2002,10:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Brian Conley,
for the 3rd time i have no actual numbers as you don't have actual numbers so why does that keep getting repeated. If you can't see the number of ads offering them by 1000 lots then i can't make you see the numbers. You don't need a hand count to see the harm and destruction. I know, these are all cb babies and are in no way harming the wild population (yea right). I know, they are taken from a female in the wild which of course doesn't affect the numbers in the wild either (yea right). When the priviledge is lost i guess you and others will find another species to run into decline.  And for some reason you keep saying B.S repiles and i have not targeted them or anyone else. Hell i even complimented him before so stop trying turn this into something about him. This is bigger than one individual. Don't take my not replying to mean i am gone i just won't be replying to the same question anymore. If you come up with something that hasn't been asked and answered i will see you then.
Joel Holloman</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The book I just mentioned does have numbers.   I can't believe all the people jumping on this bandwagon when you guys don't even have numbers to back up your cause.

By the way, I received 100 of them and they ALL arrived live and 100% healthy.

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

That is an excellent book.  

I have a copy and there are pictures of the ranches, as well some of the collecting methods.  If you have not cheked this book out, it is well worth the read.  It looks like a cheesy little book because it is not overly thick, but it is packed with info on a lot of Ball python issues.

 

[ajc]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous @ May 17 2002,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is an excellent book.  

I have a copy and there are pictures of the ranches, as well some of the collecting methods.  If you have not cheked this book out, it is well worth the read.  It looks like a cheesy little book because it is not overly thick, but it is packed with info on a lot of Ball python issues.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Definitely.  That book has more info on the BP trade than anything I've ever seen...and it's got numbers straight from CITES.  The English translation is funny, and it looks like an old book at first glance, but it is actually fairly current...shows pics of the Platinum ball and some other really cool new morphs.

 

[bpc]

Well there ya go Joel.  Actual numbers.  Safeguards in place and numbers monitored by CITES.  Damn, guess I'll have to go find some other species to eliminate from the planet!  Perhaps people postings pics of their truck on reptile related sites sHould be my next victoms.   HAHAHAHA (LOUD AND EVIL) <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

 

[jusmebabe]

Anthony Caponetto,
I don't know what wagon your refering to as i see no other posts regarding this subject. Maybe you should get off the wagon of defending the practice. Sorry i don't believe everything written in a book. Depending on who wrote it tells if they are biased or not. I have not seen it so i won't comment on the contents. Since you copied my post i take it you were offering proof of the numbers taken and whether it's affecting their population?  If i find someone with a copy i will check it out but not interested in buying it as ball pythons aren't my thing (doesn't mean i dont care). Thanx for the info.
As for you Glenn, don't reply if it's played out. I have not mentioned you so the point is moot. I heard your opinion and that's that. I'm sure you have better things to do so ignore me as i have you. I'm not forcing you to comment. You seem to need to come back and say i'm not gettng your point. I am only replying when someone says something with my name in it. I reply politely unless i see sarcasm then i give the same back. Don't reply and you won't be mentioned.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

"As for you Glenn, don't reply if it's played out. I have not mentioned you so the point is moot. I heard your opinion and that's that. I'm sure you have better things to do so ignore me as i have you. I'm not forcing you to comment. You seem to need to come back and say i'm not gettng your point. I am only replying when someone says something with my name in it. I reply politely unless i see sarcasm then i give the same back. Don't reply and you won't be mentioned."

Hi jusmebabe,

Did I misunderstand or isn't jusmebabe your screen name, the one you decided to use for yourself when you signed up on faunaclassifieds? You use it in every post, so now you are offended that I don't say Hi Joel?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?? Are yo kidding, get off the bandwagon of finding everyone else wrong for the stupidest reasons and stick to the facts. You do seem to me to be on a bandwagon as it also seems to others, the thing is you seem to be a one man band.

You asked for numbers and now that someone has given them, you refuse to accept them. You will not buy the book! Wow that is no surprise to me, I would have guessed that once you could get the evidence you would refuse to look at it if it was available at a cost and disagreed with your point. You apparently want to spout off what I believe is your rhetoric unimpinged, even in the face of factual evidence to the contrary. No one has been sarcastic with you. If I want to be sarcastic you will not miss it, in fact I don't need sarcasm, I don't need to hide my feelings or disguise my words. I speak and write to the point.

And by the way, you opened the topic. I will reply as long as I feel like it. Who are you to restrict my access to this site? You seem to be the only one here who does not want to actually discuss the facts. What I said before was that I will not keep repeating the same thing and beat it to death. I never said I will not reply to further postings or that I did not want to reply further. You certainly, in my opinion, seem to have a way of twisting things that others say; that is you twist them to suit your needs in my estimation.

You brought up the original topic, now that someone has proof otherwise, why not be open minded enough to actually buy the book, read it, and then reassess you situation. You may wind up having the same view but maybe not. Are you afraid that the truth of the matter may be other than what you currently believe it to be?

 

[Glenn Bartley]

AJC and Robert Hill,

Hi. Please let me know where you picked up the interesting sounding book about Ball Pythons. I tried Barnes & Noble but it is not currently stocked. I also tried Amazon with no luck. Is this the correct title exactly as it appears on the book: Ball Pythons - Habitat, care and breeding; and who is the publisher? Is this the correct spelling of the author's name: Stefan Broghammer? How much was it? I would like to pick it up and learn some more about one of my favorite snakes. Any help is appreciated, thank you.


Best regards,

Glenn Bartley

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Glenn,

I picked up the book from Maryland Reptile Farm while at the Daytona Expo last year.  If I remember right the book was about $20-25.  You should be able to get the book through them, or through Serpent's Tale, which I think just changed their name, but I don't remember the new name, sorry.  Also, the Bean Farm might carry it as they have a decent book selection.  The author's name is Stephan Broggheimer(spelling may be off, don't have it in front of me sorry).  He is also the same author that wrote Albinos, which was a pretty good book showing color mutations in various herps(including tons of Ball Python morphs).  
But forgive the translations, there are some spelling errors and some terms that kinda make you go, "huh, why would he use THAT word?"  But aside from those slight translation fopas(sp?), it is a great little book.

 

[ajc]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Glenn Bartley @ May 18 2002,13:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">AJC and Robert Hill,

Hi. Please let me know where you picked up the interesting sounding book about Ball Pythons. I tried Barnes & Noble but it is not currently stocked. I also tried Amazon with no luck. Is this the correct title exactly as it appears on the book: Ball Pythons - Habitat, care and breeding; and who is the publisher? Is this the correct spelling of the author's name: Stefan Broghammer? How much was it? I would like to pick it up and learn some more about one of my favorite snakes. Any help is appreciated, thank you.


Best regards,

Glenn Bartley</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I got my copy at a KC Herp Society meeting.  You can contact Gary Quirk by email at [email protected] for info.  He might be able to sell you a copy online.  I think it was $20...It's well worth 20 bucks.

 

[ajc]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jusmebabe @ May 18 2002,02:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anthony Caponetto,
I don't know what wagon your refering to as i see no other posts regarding this subject. Maybe you should get off the wagon of defending the practice. Sorry i don't believe everything written in a book. Depending on who wrote it tells if they are biased or not. I have not seen it so i won't comment on the contents. Since you copied my post i take it you were offering proof of the numbers taken and whether it's affecting their population?  If i find someone with a copy i will check it out but not interested in buying it as ball pythons aren't my thing (doesn't mean i dont care). Thanx for the info.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The bandwagon I refer to is all of the people that don't have any proof whatsoever stating that the wild Ball Python population is in any danger, yet still complain that we're driving them into extinction.  

All this talk and reasoning by you and other people doesn't mean a thing.  Of all the people I've seen complain about the CH ball python trade here or on kingsnake.com, not a single one of you have EVER produced any numbers or factual evidence whatsoever.

The thing is this.  CITES (which is an international organization) and the respective governments in Africa, are both watching this very carefully.  We all know why CITES is concerned.  

But, think about this.  The governments in Africa view them as a renewable resource and are not going to allow the Ball Python to become extinct or even endangered...even if they could care less about the environment, it's too great of a revenue generator for them.  

It drives me insane that you guys want to use the that "They're exporting them for the all mighty dollar, and they don't care about the snakes." argument, yet none of you have bothered to comprehend how much money they stand to lose if the BP were to become extinct, or even if CITES had to step in and put a stop the trade.   Who cares if they care about the snakes.  They probably need them around more than we do.

I just wish that you and everyone else that complains about this, with absolutely no solid proof or facts, would just give it a rest.