Bad Guy Kingsnake.com –Enabling Internet Fraud!!!

[JG1153]

Kingsnake.com –Enabling Internet Fraud!!!

This thread is in a way an extension to my previous thread about Dan Scolaro from DTS Herps and those unfamiliar with that thread should read it in order to fully understand what’s going on here. On the other hand this thread is very much about a separate and very important issue. Now for some basic background for this thread. Dan Scolaro of DTS Herps basically tried to very boldly scam me out of $1k. The FBI ended up getting involved and my money was eventually returned.

During the time I was trying to recover my funds or property I filed a complaint with Kingsnake.com letting them know how Mr. Scolaro was falsely advertising on the site, how he had scammed me out of $1k, and how he now at that very moment was attempting to do the same to other people by running another fraudulent ad. Within a few days of filing my complaint I noticed all the DTS ads had been removed so I thought WOW! Kingsnake really is committed to fighting scammers like they proudly say on the site, that’s good to know. Unfortunately once Mr. Scolaro was basically forced to return my funds. Kingsnake went ahead and unbloked Mr. Scolaro’s account instead of banning him from the site. They didn’t even bother asking me for any evidence to support my claim which I literally just about have any piece of evidence you could possibly want. When I inquired as to why Mr. Scolaro’s account was reactivated Kingsnake responded that since I had received my funds back the matter was closed and the merchant could continue about his business.

Here is this guy who without a shadow of a doubt and by his own admission is actively using the site to run scams and Kingsnake is just as willing to have him on the site as any of the best and most reputable merchants. This is unconscionable, just because Mr. Scolaro was pretty much forced to return my money isn't any kind of sign of good will. By allowing him back on the site Kingsnake is not only allowing but encouraging him and who knows how many others to continue this type of despicable behavior. I can only suppose that the reason for this to be money. Kingsnake profits from reputable and disreputable merchant accounts alike but they can’t profit from merchant who’s been banned from the site.

This sends a very clear, big, neon, colored message to Mr. Scolaro and all others of his kind that’s it’s ok to run scams off of the site just as long as when a buyer who is savvy, and willing enough to go through the proper channels is encountered the dispute is settled and then business can resume as before. Kingsnake very obviously doesn’t care because in all reality they make money of these scumbags just like they make money off of reputable merchants but no money is made from banning someone from the site and this is being done at the expense of all of us and to the detriment of the hobby and sound businesses practices.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

This thread is in a way an extension to my previous thread about Dan Scolaro from DTS Herps and those unfamiliar with that thread should read it in order to fully understand what’s going on here.

I, for one, would be happy to read the thread, but you neglected to post the link.
Not that I am advocating Kingsnake.com, but isn't that what free enterprise is all about? You have the CHOICE to do business on that site or not, depending on how strong your convictions are.
Personally, thanks to the BOI, and posts like yours, I can make well-informed decisions as to whom to do business with!

Note to registered users: if the BOI has helped you out in any way in making your informed decisions on whom you deal with, SUPPORT THE BOI and at least become a contributor! If it has saved you from dealing with less than reputable people in the reptile community, it has saved you money!
(Steps down from soapbox now...)

 

[Jerry_c_62]

(Steps up on Troi's soapbox)

This site, and the B.O.I. specifically. Is one of the few ways to police the type of behaviour you mention (accurate or not). Once it is gone there will be one fewer options to fight this type of thing. PLEASE BECOME A CONTRIBUTING MEMBER AND HELP KEEP THE B.O.I. ALVIE AND WELL.

(Steps off of soapbox now)

Jerry Cross

 

[mike17l]

Yeah, but KS.com should still try to protect its buyers, not it's crooks.

Not everyone who finds animals for sale on KS knows about the BOI.

 

[Jerry_c_62]

Yeah, but KS.com should still try to protect its buyers, not it's crooks.

Not everyone who finds animals for sale on KS knows about the BOI.

I can't disagree with anything you say.

Just in the interest of full disclosure, I have never done any business through KS so I have nothing good or bad to use as personal experience.

But to the best of my knowleadge there is nothing else like the B.O.I. out there, and if those who DO know about it and use it do not support it with membership and referrals the day is coming when it will no longer be availabel for anyone. JMHO.

Jerry Cross

 

[mikeyt]

I check kingsnake out everyday, just to see what is out there. There are many reputable breeders on there and many that are not. I have never once purchased anything from Kingsnake, only due to the fact that most things listed are higher priced then you can find at any local show. Even reputable breeders that have things listed for a certain price, I have seen them at the show with the same animals for less. So why pay more plus shipping on top of it.

Also, I have heard through many forums and personal friends that Kingsnake will just take your money for advertising and never let you post, as well as just flagging for no reason. I dont have that kind of money to just give away with no return explanation. This business is tough enough. Again, I have heard many of the stories involving Kingsnake and their bad business practices. This is a clear example of "size does matter", Kingsnake is to big and to many people use it, for every one person dissatisfied, there are two more waiting o come onboard.

 

[mikeyt]

So unfortuantely, I dont see them changing their practices, or anything being done by any agency in the near future.

 

[hhmoore]

Just to add another perspective - call it defending KS, if you will - the decision to cancel advertisers over a complaint does not come easily. It basically means that whoever is in charge of making the decision is willing to serve as judge in matters where the "evidence" is 2 people saying 2 different things. Many have noticed, and commented on, the fact that "known bad guys" can post ads HERE...the home of the BOI. I'm pretty sure that Rich has stated that he is not willing to take responsibility for deciding if the complaints have merit, or how many complaints should lead to suspension of advertising privileges, and how numerous other things will factor in to the equation (ie. if the seller refunds or replaces after his advertising is cut off).

 

[WebSlave]

I believe that this thread is jumping to an inaccurate conclusion. Failing (either by intent or neglect) to prevent fraud is NOT enabling or condoning such actions. And, in fact, anyone who claims to be preventing fraud by disabling persons from advertising on their site who APPEAR to be fraudulent may actually be taking on an enormous legal burden by the implication that all buyers are therefore safe from fraud by purchasing from sellers who ARE allowed to advertise there. That is an extremely risky position for anyone to take. I know I certainly will not do so, and I seriously doubt that Jeff Barringer is willing to take up that burden of risk as well.

Pretty much people need to take the stance of caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. It is completely up to the buyer to do their homework and take every step possible to determine if they are making a wise decision. To leave this important factor of business completely in someone else's hands is pure folly, at best. To EXPECT someone else to do your homework for you, is unfair to demand of anyone, and pretty darn unrealistic as well.

 

[Tim Cole]

Yeah, but KS.com should still try to protect its buyers, not it's crooks.

Not everyone who finds animals for sale on KS knows about the BOI.

Good luck with that!

 

[Tiger Lilly]

The word of the day is BOI--help spread the word!

Yeah, but KS.com should still try to protect its buyers, not it's crooks.

Not everyone who finds animals for sale on KS knows about the BOI.

I agree as well with the first part of your statement, but I also agree with Harald's post. It is up to US to protect ourselves. I also look at KS, but don't buy unless it's from someone that a) I've checked out on the BOI, & b) also has ads here on Fauna.
As for the second part of your statement:

HELP SPREAD THE WORD!

(taking over soapbox) Without the BOI, scammers would likely take over a hobby/business that many of us hold dear to our hearts. We would likely NOT have a lot of advances in the morph areas if everyone was selling fake hets in a willy-nilly manner! After just reading some of the posts regarding certain people/businesses (TSE comes to mind)...I decided long ago that 'if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.' Again, TSE comes to mind. I came soooo close to buying from them because they had great deals. I put it off & put it off until such a time as, what do ya know, they were found to be selling fake hets! Now, while the BOI didn't help so much with my decision not to buy from them, it will forever immortalize the names of the people and businesses that have scammed, screwed over and just flat out stole money from people under the guise of selling reptiles! Let me re-phrase that: the BOI will forever immortalize the good guys AND the bad guys AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE TO SUPPORT IT!
(relinquishes soapbox...NEXT!)

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Mr. Scolaro is a real class act.... *rolls eyes*

Im glad you got the FBI involved, the guy needs a boot in the rear. Can you explain how things went down? What did you try to purchase?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Mr. Scolaro is a real class act.... *rolls eyes*

Im glad you got the FBI involved, the guy needs a boot in the rear. Can you explain how things went down? What did you try to purchase?

Ah. Found the other thread. Pardon.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

Moo, can you post the link to the one he's talking about? I've heard so much bad about him I'm afraid to do a search...

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Moo, can you post the link to the one he's talking about? I've heard so much bad about him I'm afraid to do a search...

I believe this is the one
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127840

 

[mike17l]

Yeah, but KS.com should still try to protect its buyers, not it's crooks.

Not everyone who finds animals for sale on KS knows about the BOI.

Good luck with that!

Yeah, that was my first thought this morning, but after having read...

I believe that this thread is jumping to an inaccurate conclusion. Failing (either by intent or neglect) to prevent fraud is NOT enabling or condoning such actions. And, in fact, anyone who claims to be preventing fraud by disabling persons from advertising on their site who APPEAR to be fraudulent may actually be taking on an enormous legal burden by the implication that all buyers are therefore safe from fraud by purchasing from sellers who ARE allowed to advertise there. That is an extremely risky position for anyone to take. I know I certainly will not do so, and I seriously doubt that Jeff Barringer is willing to take up that burden of risk as well.

Pretty much people need to take the stance of caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. It is completely up to the buyer to do their homework and take every step possible to determine if they are making a wise decision. To leave this important factor of business completely in someone else's hands is pure folly, at best. To EXPECT someone else to do your homework for you, is unfair to demand of anyone, and pretty darn unrealistic as well.

I will agree, I would not want to take on the responsibility, I had not thought about that at all.

 

[JG1153]

Yeah, that was my first thought this morning, but after having read...



I will agree, I would not want to take on the responsibility, I had not thought about that at all.

I also agree but to the some extent can certainly see the dilemma but isn't KS then taken on the responsibility of aiding these pople

take this example: if one day you decide to rent a room out of your house and a teenager shows up to try to rent the room and you ultimately decide to go ahead and rent the room to him/her. You later realize that this teenager is actually a runaway. Is it not your duty to notify the authorities and have this person removed because at the very least, and as as of this moment you are aware that you are in fact breaking the law by aiding this person. is it not your responsibility to do what you can to remedy the situation and protect yourself. Or would it be ok for you to wash your hands from the matter by saying this has nothing to do with you and therefore it is not your responsibility to act on this matter and at the same time continue to profit from the situation by continuing to collect rent?

At the same time though you have been a very vocal member of an organization that pledges to fight crime and help those who have been a victim of crime.

How is this different than the current situation this thread is about?

anytime you turn your head the other way on a crime of and especially when you profit from it you are legaly liable to for this crime. You are at a very basic level an accomplice.
if KS does not take the responsibility to prevent fraud on their site they are in a very real sense takning on the responsibility of being an accomplice.

I'm not saying KS needs to actively patrol i'ts site for criminal behavior but when they are very clearly presented with a case where this going on. Is it not their responsibility to deal with it accordingly if at the very least to protect themselves?

 

[JG1153]

Just to add another perspective - call it defending KS, if you will - the decision to cancel advertisers over a complaint does not come easily. It basically means that whoever is in charge of making the decision is willing to serve as judge in matters where the "evidence" is 2 people saying 2 different things. Many have noticed, and commented on, the fact that "known bad guys" can post ads HERE...the home of the BOI. I'm pretty sure that Rich has stated that he is not willing to take responsibility for deciding if the complaints have merit, or how many complaints should lead to suspension of advertising privileges, and how numerous other things will factor in to the equation (ie. if the seller refunds or replaces after his advertising is cut off).

I can certainly understand this line of thought and as long as those engaging in commerce on this site are aware of this than there is nothing wrong with that as these would be the sites terms of use, but KS very clearly states: under their Complaints/Rip offs in the classifieds page:

Everyone who has purchased items online there are good deals and bad deals. There are also some complete rip-offs. Realistically there is little we can do to get your money back or get you satisfaction. We are not attorneys, mediators, or members of a law enforcement agency. We can and we do strictly enforce our Terms of Service and fraud and theft certainly violate those policys so if you feel you have been ripped off or de-frauded make sure to file a complaint here with our abuse coordinator.

and then under their Terms of Service:

• Account Violations & Resolutions

• Vendor Complaints - Please note that UNLESS the complaint involves non-delivery of goods or theft, all vendors have a three-complaint rule. Get three (3) complaints and you have to resolve them ALL before we can allow you to post again.

• Any complaints of non-delivery of goods, non-payment of goods received, or theft are cause for immediate suspension of your account.

“As for scammers and fraud artists - we do prosecute and have already been involved with a number of arrests and prosecutions.”

• Intentional / Repeat Violations of TOS - Anyone intentionally violating this TOS, or continuing to violate this TOS after receiving notice/warning of a TOS violation is subject to having their account privileges restricted or terminated with no warning or notice. If you receive a TOS violation notice, take no corrective action, and violate the same section of the TOS again, your account privileges may be restricted or terminated with no warning or notice.
Legal

Please note that we take all reports of criminal activity very seriously and work closely with law enforcement agencies, local, state, and federal, on a regular basis. If you know of criminal activity occurring on this web site, we encourage you to contact the proper law enforcement agency, file a formal complaint, and ask the agency involved to contact our legal department.
Any violations of the terms listed above that cause your account to be terminated will cause any and all registration or advertising fees paid to be forfeit to OnlineHobbyist.com, Inc.

Be aware that if you violate our Terms Of Service, OnlineHobbyist.com, Inc. may delete or edit your messages, contact your internet service provider, have your account terminated, cancel your advertising, and/or block your access to our web site. PetHobbyist.com and its affiliated communities reserve the right to terminate any account, refuse service, or limit access at our discretion.


Isn’t all of this big talk in effect saying they will take the responsibility to try to best of their ability to fight cyber crime. just because Dan was basically forced to return my money doesn't mean he basically never stole it. not to mention that by his own admission he was trying to steal other peoples money. not only does Dan's case fall within the bounds of these terms not just as theft but he is also a repeat offender

Remember this is Dan we're talking about not some first time offender chances are Dan has had multiple compaints filed on him for similar things. If he doesn't warrant removal from the site who does?

 

[MikeCurtin]

One thing I noticed...did you have the authorities you reported Dan to contact Kingsnake, or did you do it yourself. Also, when you contacted them, did you give them ALL the proof of transaction and wrongdoing? I don't doubt what happened with Mr. Scumlaro, but if a good portion of it was done by phone and Kingsnake doesn't have enough written proof, there may be little they can do. Just something to consider.

 

[JG1153]

When you file a complaint with KS and IC3, kingsnake only asks you to state your claim. IC3 asks you to state your claim and asks whether you have proof to substantiate your claim. neither asks you to attach such proof or subsequently submit it. at least not until you are contacted about it, not to mention that I did not want to or think it wise to swamp either one with 4 months worth of emails and voicemail messages in addition to police reports and any other evidence I had until they were ready to receive the bulk of information. But at the time of the complaint both were specifically made aware of the amount and type of evidence as well as the previous steps I had taken and that any evidence they required would gladly be provided. The only ones who asked for immediate evidence were the local P.D.s in order to attach these documents to the reports.

in fact for kingsnake to take your claim seriously and process it you are required to file a complaint with IC3 and provide proof before they take any action. Therefore they were well aware, not to mention that in their terms of use it specifically states:

"Please note that we take all reports of criminal activity very seriously and work closely with law enforcement agencies, local, state, and federal, on a regular basis. If you know of criminal activity occurring on this web site, we encourage you to contact the proper law enforcement agency, file a formal complaint, and ask the agency involved to contact our legal department."

All the information was readily available all they needed to do was show an interest.