kingsnake.com Bad Business practices.

[sixgunsun1177]

I'm sure some of you have Ks.com accounts and have been bombarded with emails notifying that you can't post using a business name till you verify your business through Kingsnake's verification process.
They state this is to protect customers. That's all good an fine and online herp customers deserve protection.

For those of you who haven't been lucky enough to receive these emails, the above explains the situation pretty well. I'm ok with ALL of the above.
But Today I get a message notifying me that I can no longer use my website name or logo in my ads. My website and logo are my virtual property and they shouldn't dictate whether I can refer to my website, my logo or not.

That was my last straw from Kingsnake, and I'll not be using them once my current paid account expires.
I would like to see other concerned folks email Ks.com and let them know how you feel about this. Their address to discuss this topic is
[email protected]
Here's the sentence pragmens they emailed to notify me.
"Cannot list a business name without the name being verified as a legally registered business. This includes in the body of the ad and the logo at the end:"

I may be over-reacting but I am (was) their loyal customer and I have this great forum to voice my opions on my dealings in the reptile world.

 

[KelliH]

I actually think this is a good thing and it does protect the consumer. I was glad when it was implemented. I believe there are legal reasons behind the change over at kingsnake as well.

 

[hhmoore]

KS's position is a relatively simple one: if you aren't a business, stop trying to pretend that you are. By making a policy of that nature, what they are saying is that non-business entities must use their names to identify themselves, and cannot promote themselves as something they are not. If your web address is not your name, it is in violation of their policy - simple enough. Paying domain fees, and starting a website does not make somebody (anybody) a business, and given the proliferation of hobbiest "businesses" over the past several years, I, for one, think KS is to be commended for their decision.

 

[homegrownherps]

I recently had to do the same thing, and I also think it is a good idea, but what about the people who register using an individual name? What is K-snake doing to make sure they are all legit?
Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything in their TOS for those sellers.
Those are the ones more likely to rip you off, since it would be easy to set up an account using a made up identity, rip some one off and just dissapear only to return under another false identity and do it again.

 

[kmurphy]

I actually think this is a good thing and it does protect the consumer. I was glad when it was implemented. I believe there are legal reasons behind the change over at kingsnake as well.

Not arguing Kelli, but how does this protect the customer? I can't see the difference between purchasing from a business, whether it comes up to Kingsnake's standards or not, or an individual. It is still buyer beware no matter who you purchase from
Not sure about the legal reasons but it would seem to me that buy certifying some business as "legit" and others as not, Kingsnake is increasing their liability not diminishing it. If they just stayed out of it then they could include a disclaimer to the affect that they do not research any of the sellers etc. As it is now, if there is a business advertising on kingsnake then they(Kingsnake) are standing behind it in some fashion.
Does anyone know what constitutes a business ala Kingsnake's definition?

 

[hhmoore]

I don't think it so much "protects" the consumer as it makes them aware of who they are buying from. This isn't an endorsement process, by any means. All they are saying is that in order for someone to claim they are a business (use a business name, website, logo, etc), that person must provide verification. If that person cannot, or will not, do that, then that person has to advertise using their name.

What constitutes a business, according to KS's terms at present is that the entity has AT THE MINIMUM file DBA (doing business as) paperwork in their state. No requirements about incorporation, LLC, etc. The paperwork, and the fee (at least here)is minimal. I suspect that the reason that most hobbiest "businesses" don't want to take that step is that it makes them a known entity and, therefore ,subject to taxation.

 

[Kingetula]

Are you verified with KS.com and they are still saying you can't use your logo etc... It sounds like you are not verified.

Get verified and all will be good IMO.

If you are verified and you can't use your logo etc than I understand why you would be pissed.

Fraud is crazy these days. I support KS.com on this, you never know who is legit so protect the customers first. If a business has issues with it then I wonder about the business...

I have read posts where so and so had this snake and was paid hundreds for it and the guy just disappeared. PROTECT THE CUSTOMER SHOULD BE PRIORITY #1! If word gets out KS has a bunch of frauds ripping people off it will hurt KS.com in the long run. If KS.com protects the customers, I would feel a little better doing business there.

Don't you want your customers knowing you are verified with KS.com?

 

[garweft]

By law to advertise commercial goods or services using any name other than your own as an individual, you must register that name using any one of a number of government mandated registration methods. Most commonly this is done by filing an Assumed Name Certificate or a Doing Business As registration, usually through your County registrar's office. Other methods include registering a Trademark, or filing Letters of Incorporation as a corporation or as an LLC. Any one of these registration instruments will give you the legal authority to operate a business under an assumed, or business name and do things such as accept money, open a business checking account, or market your products or services. These documents are required by law to provide links between the assumed name and the business owners for matters of taxation and legal liability.

Often, especially online, people will operate using a business name that has not been legally registered leaving virtually no traceable information in case of problems and issues or fraud and theft. Fraud artists will often hide behind these unregistered business names and change them once they have been uncovered or will operate under multiple unregistered businesses at once.

As a business concerned with fraud and theft issues in our classifieds, we have decided to implement a registered business program so that you can be assured when dealing with people advertising as businesses on our site, that they have at least legally registered as a business in their jurisdiction. At first, registration in this system will be voluntary, but on May 1, 2007 this system will become mandatory for everyone wishing to advertise using a business name on our systems, classifieds, and otherwise. Once it has become mandatory it will be required at the time of classified account registration prior to posting advertisements. This does not mean that it is ok to violate the law and continue to operate a legally unregistered business name on our site til then, this just means you don't have to register with our web site until the mandatory date.

http://www.pethobbyist.com/verify.html

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Not arguing Kelli, but how does this protect the customer? I can't see the difference between purchasing from a business, whether it comes up to Kingsnake's standards or not, or an individual. It is still buyer beware no matter who you purchase from
Not sure about the legal reasons but it would seem to me that buy certifying some business as "legit" and others as not, Kingsnake is increasing their liability not diminishing it. If they just stayed out of it then they could include a disclaimer to the affect that they do not research any of the sellers etc. As it is now, if there is a business advertising on kingsnake then they(Kingsnake) are standing behind it in some fashion.
Does anyone know what constitutes a business ala Kingsnake's definition?

The business name needs to have been registered with the state the individual does business in as a legal fictitious name. It does actually protect the customer quite well as it leaves a paper trail back to the individual if there is a problem. It also prevents a scammer from simply closing up shop and reappearing tomorrow under a different business name. Upstate Exotics and many others used this ploy to their advantage several times.

As to verifying individuals, I am sure that is more difficult. Personally, I would love to see them require a faxed copy of a valid drivers license in the name the account is being taken out in but I doubt that would ever happen due to identity theft liability issues.

Bottom line to the original poster. Register the name and verify it with Kingsnale or start posting ads under your own John Hancock

 

[Kingetula]

http://www.pethobbyist.com/verify.html

Good post.

I agree with the above poster about taxation as well.

CLAP CLAP to KS.com It may not protect us 100% but at least it helps weed out the fakes. If I buy something I want to know I can find and call them 24 hours later!!!

I think if someone has issues with this new policy it's because they have something to hide. (From a customer or the government)

 

[Wraith]

Not arguing Kelli, but how does this protect the customer? I can't see the difference between purchasing from a business, whether it comes up to Kingsnake's standards or not, or an individual. It is still buyer beware no matter who you purchase from
Not sure about the legal reasons but it would seem to me that buy certifying some business as "legit" and others as not, Kingsnake is increasing their liability not diminishing it. If they just stayed out of it then they could include a disclaimer to the affect that they do not research any of the sellers etc. As it is now, if there is a business advertising on kingsnake then they(Kingsnake) are standing behind it in some fashion.
Does anyone know what constitutes a business ala Kingsnake's definition?

Yeah. KS stood out of it for a long time and yes they had disclaimers but people still did nothing but whine and complain about people getting ripped off and threatening to boycott them and whatever have you. At least they are now taking some steps to legally verify a portion of the advertisers on that site with this new implementation.

It's surprising how many so called "businesses" vanished practically overnight once it went into effect. We can assume some were scammers who cant hide anymore as a business. And I'm betting a small number of non-scammer people are trying to fight this because they don't want to be forced to register with their state and then start having to pay taxes because their hobby progressed beyond being a hobby and into an income generating hobby.

It's not like it is that difficult to go down the local county administration and find out what paperwork needs to be filed to be able to legally "do business as"... scammers I think will tend to shy away from that as they have to have their information on file with the state and that makes it harder for them to hide in that manner...they would rather remain annonymous.

A business is one that is legally registered within the state they are located. If a problem occurs, then the person who was victimized by a business that was listed as registered has better legal recourse as there is information on file with the state that the person was registered with them (probably even has tax filings too) and they can be tracked a lot easier than a person not on file with the state. People who choose to do business with a non-registered individual has far less recourse and one should think twice about doing business with them.

 

[homegrownherps]

So it seems a potential thief can register as Bob Johnson this month , and come back to register as John Smith and rip off some more people ????

It seems that if some one has a website theres a less likely chance of them ripping people off. I'm not talking about those freebie websites.

 

[Kingetula]

So it seems a potential thief can register as Bob Johnson this month , and come back to register as John Smith and rip off some more people ????

It seems that if some one has a website theres a less likely chance of them ripping people off. I'm not talking about those freebie websites.

A website with no adds is cheap to buy. I've done gamer clans (Call of duty, Medal of honor and Madden football) I have had clan members put up nice websites for nothing for our clan that didn't cost us any money.

 

[Kingetula]

A website with no adds is cheap to buy. I've done gamer clans (Call of duty, Medal of honor and Madden football) I have had clan members put up nice websites for nothing for our clan that didn't cost us any money.

Wait, maybe under $10.00 to remove the ads for the website. Point is websites are cheap to put up and can look professional enough to scam us.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

A direct question to the original poster

Matthew, have you gone through the verification process with Kingsnake?

 

[kmurphy]

After reading the several posts I can see where Kingsnake is coming from and generally agree with the policy. However, in Maine there is no licensing for a schedule C business owner.

Below is from the "starting a business" site of the Maine web site. Local government generally just regulates zoning. etc.

General licenses to operate a business are managed at the town/city level in Maine. Contact your town office for information. To obtain contact information for your town office or to locate your municipal website, visit the Maine.gov Local Government portal.

I am in the mortgage business and this causes considerable problems for us with some loans, so please don't come back and say there must be some registration etc. in Maine. Some towns have very little zoning so would just tell you to do what you want. To open a business checking account you generally need to do just that. Banks charge for business accounts and would prefer you to use them. You need to keep a minimum balance etc. but there's no requirement that you have a license.
So while I can agree with the policy I can see where it may cause problems for some legitimate sellers.

 

[garweft]

There is just a big problem with "fake" businesses in the reptile breeding world. There are a lot of young adults (kids), that want to "play" business because it's fun and makes them feel like a big player in the reptile breeding community. Most don't have any intention to rip anyone off, and most never will rip anyone off.

However, they never want to do, or don't know they have to do, the work involved in becoming a registered business with the tax man. People that are running legitimate businesses watch as faux business by faux business pop up as competitors. There are people selling reptiles at shows without a vendor permit, and there are people selling on various websites as a business without being a registered business. Kingsnake probably got a lot of complaints from legitimate businesses that wanted something done to separate them from the rest of the pack.

 

[KelliH]

Kevin, I think it protects the consumer in several ways, the main one has already been stated a couple of times by others. To me the protection is that when you are dealing with a seller on kingsnake that has a business name that they sell under, you know that they are a legitimate business and not a guy flesh peddling out of his bedroom. For the people complaining about it, well, maybe they should become a legitimate, legal business. Of course, then they would have to report their business income to the government...

 

[KelliH]

However, they never want to do, or don't know they have to do, the work involved in becoming a registered business with the tax man. People that are running legitimate businesses watch as faux business by faux business pop up as competitors. There are people selling reptiles at shows without a vendor permit, and there are people selling on various websites as a business without being a registered business.

That is quite annoying, since I do operate a tax paying business, and that annoyance is also one of the reasons I was happy to see this new rule implemented on ksnake.

 

[hhmoore]

Kmurphy:
I am not disputing you, as I have no knowledge of the situation in Maine...but a business "license" isn't a stated requirement. Is there a DBA, or some similar method of registering a business name? Without that, you could have multiple businesses operating under the same name.