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Lee Watson Swap Bust

I know on the surface the aquaculture license doesn't seem to have anything to do with bearded dragons, but it is simply a matter of jurisdiction.  Thats the license they say you need to sell them and that's all.  Would it be better if they gave you a ticket and said you didn't have a "desert agamid from Australia" license

Steve Schindler
 
<!--QuoteBegin--Lee Watson+Sep. 18 2002,12<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lee Watson @ Sep. 18 2002,12<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The bearded dragon ticket was issued for lack of an aquaculture permit, although we have a letter from Rodney W. Horner, Aquaculture Coordinator, stating that they are only interested in indigenous animals.  So if there is not a wild population of beardeds in IL, I guess we're all right without it.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>


Steve, I would agree with your assessment if this quotation from Mr. Watson did not show that the license was only supposed to be for native species.  If this is true, the application of the law is inaccurate, and the animals should be returned immediately!
 
By definition an aquaculture license does not apply to bearded dragons. It was a mistake. Very simply put, if it is not native, not endangered/protected, then there is no way for any state conservation/agriculture agency to regulate it. Period. It is outside their abilities under the law. United States Fish and Wildlife is the only agency that deals with "exotic" or foreign species. They only have control over import/export and CITES regulatory matters. They have no rule of law or policy to allow them to in any way regulate the bearded dragons that are captive produced here in the USA. Period. The Food and Drug Administration has no jurisdiction either. The only reptile related law that they were there to enforce is the 4" turtle law that falls under public health.

The beared dragon was just one of the mistakes. They attempted to seize American alligators under the rational that they are protected. They are not native and not protected in Illinois. For that fact they are no longer protected in Florida. So again, they have no right to seize or regulate alligators.

I can keep on with this. There are articles circulating on the net that many vendors were arrested and that there was all kinds of drama. They were not there. Lee and I were there all day. We know what happened. One kid was arrested for a rattlesnake. Others got ticketed. The authorities have already admitted that they were wrong on several topics both to us at the show and since. It was very low key and very little happened. Evan Stahl
 
I forgot to mention, for all of you guys arguing about police, not one police officer was present! These were all US Fish and Wildlife, Illinois Dept of Agriculture and Federal Food and Drug Administration. I am a full time reptile breeder and have many friends that are state and federal law enforcement personel. This thread was and is about what happened at the show in Streamwood, not ranting about parking tickets. Anyone who does not like a law but does nothing to change it has nothing to complain about as far as I am concerned. That is certainly why it is such a shame that there is no unity in the reptile industry. Evan Stahl
 
I cannot believe all I have just read!!  There are crooked people in everything not just police work.  Tim and Classic Dums I cannot believe ya'll said what you did.  I know you are expressing your opinions and I am all for that.  However, I also feel it only right to let you know how I feel.
 I think what was said was very shallow, generalized and I took offense to it.  You hate cops!!  What would you do if a tragedy struck?  Would you want police then?  Yeah, there are some sorry cops but there are a hell of alot of good ones too.  Tim I know you said not all cops but there is alot of anger in what you wrote.  If everyhting you say is true about the police in your county or whatever.  You need to make a stand for what is right.
 I worked my a$$ off for an education and my badge.  If I have offended you.  I am sorry but I could not let that lie.  I had to get it off of my chest.  Man, that is the last thing I expected coming from you two.
By the way Ken!!  You are right I am glad this came up.  I also see what I needed too!!!
Gilbert Thompson
 
Hey Ken,
     Be sure you don't give up our secret BLUE CODE signals.  We wouldn't be as secretive and effective then.  Ya know the ones on the movies  HA!HA!  I have heard it all now.
Gilbert Thompson
 
well sorry if I offended but I have my reasons I could rant on all day if I wanted to, but you tell me you have a cop pull you over for cutting through a parking lot to beat a traffic signal and next you know their tearing your car apart and theifing your belongings and the belongings of others that were in you car and youll see things from a differant light, I watched a female officer try on and pocket a bottle of my mothers cheap perfume that fell out of her purse, there was ten of them making a big joke and pocketing all my stuff, all for going to through a parking lot, "You need to make a stand for what is right." humm tried that, I got blocked by a blue wall and a judge, like I said I could go on but Ill leave it at that

any event back to the topic at hand, this is nothing knew for IL, people get arrested here all the time for alligators because according to IL there endangered, not threatning, endangered, last year there was a bunch of people with western hogs at the Tinley show that got busted then they had to give them back I forget what that was all about, ID the species wrong or something if I rember correctly, alll I can say is if your into repiltes and thinking of moving here DONT and if you do live in fear, we have all the permits but they dont even protect your animals, i have known people with those permits that had their animals taken, the state was found to be wrong and they got what was left of their animals back, according to the law the dept of ag has to have a qualified insitution to keep and maintain the animals they confiscate for the duruation of the court procedings, in some of the cases I know of that institunion was in a rubbermaid tub on the floor of the arresting officers basement, no heat nothing, animals just sat there suffered and died, its a shame there is no reason for any of this
 
Evan, Ill-annoy classifies alligators as potentially dangersous. As such, they are prohibited under the Dangerous Animals Act. They are still listed on the Federal ESA, so, by default, they are also governed by the Illinois Endangered Species Protection Act.

As for the western hogs, they're a threatened species in Illinois, so I can see where the problem arises. For the same reason, it's not advisable to keep eastern indigos if you live in Florida.

Vendors need to familiarize themselves with the laws of the state (at least) that they're doing the show in. For those that knew the law, and got busted, I have no sympathy. Their greed not only got them in hot water, it also gave the entire herp industry a black eye.

There's things that shouldn't have happened, of course. The bearded dragons/aquaculture license immediately comes to mind. The vehicle and bag searches should have also been limited to those people arrested.. The detention of everyone was not illegal, but could have been handled in a better manner.

Jason, using the same pseudoreasoning that leads to the anti-cop rhetoric, what would be the difference if someone were to pick a race or ethnic group that they have had limited bad experiences with, and make broad, innacurate generalizations about them (ie, racism)?
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">, what would be the difference if someone were to pick a race or ethnic group that they have had limited bad experiences with, and make broad, innacurate generalizations about them (ie, racism)?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You mean like the "Racial Profiling" that is tought and common place in aw enforcement?

Pot calling the kettel in that one.
 
Mike, I did not ask for a red herring.

The question still stands. Now then, can you answer the question without using pseudoreasoning?
 
Sorry im not to keen on the quote thing but heres one from Gilbert, "I think what was said was very shallow, generalized and I took offense to it.  You hate cops!!  What would you do if a tragedy struck?  Would you want police then? "  
I personally think that his comments were close to "on" excpet with too much anger behind them.  I was robbed about 6 monhs ago for quite a large sum of money in Reptiles and I called the police.  When speaking to the 911 operator she asked if someone could still be in the house.  Now I checked around the house with my 12 gauge first thing in hopes to catch the perpetrator myself so I knew he was gone.  I MADE A POINT TO SAY THER COULD STILL BE SOMEONE IN THE HOUSE!!! in order to initiate a quicker response.  It took over 2 hours and 15 minutes for a single cop to arrive. ON A BURGUALARY CALL!!! WITH A POSSIBILITY THERE MIGHT BE A INTRUDER STILL IN MY HOME!!!   I could have been killed, chopped up, and buried in my backyard by the time they got there.  The irony to me is that the actual police station is only 20 minutes away!  I could have drove there and back 6 times by the time one overweight, uneducated, sorry excuse of a Cop showed up, hell if the perpetrator was still there he could have out ran this cop by jogging for 2 minutes.  So in response to the quote "I think what was said was very shallow, generalized and I took offense to it.  You hate cops!!  What would you do if a tragedy struck?  Would you want police then? "  the answer is NO!  I will no longer think there is ANY security from law enforcement when it comes to matters of that nature.  I would still call police if something occured to cover myself legally, but would not feel safe knowing they might show up sometime that day when its convieniant for them.  The police tend to be worthless in my communtity unless they are issuing tickets and generating funds or chasing tennagers for curfew laws (again issueing citations to generate funds).  The cops in my town won't even go to the areas where lawenforcement is truly needed as there is such a massive problem here with chasing teens who are out to late.  (note the sarcasim)  I keep firearms, a large dog now, a security system and a camera system as I WILL NOT rely on law enforcement as they have done nothing but prove to me they are incompetent and uncaring.  I of course have not met every cop in the world and am sure there are plenty of "good cops" around, just none have ever showed there true colors to me or anyone I know personally.  I dont hate police officers whatsoever ( as they are human and to Err is )but do feel they are unreliable and for the most part and uneducated, unless you count the 16 weeks or so they spend in police academy and a GED.  No offense meant to any truly "good" police officers just posting my PERSONAL OPINIONS AND EXPERIENCES with the law enforcemtn in areas I have lived.  Take it as you wish..............
 
I can answer that.  It is called human nature.  People have a tendency to identify a group as "theirs" and every other group as "not theirs."   This attitude is part of the will to survive.  The whole point of being alive (in a biological sense) is to procreate, to make sure your genetics are passed on.  Every group that is "not theirs" is a genetic threat.
And give me a break about the thing with having bad experiences and making a broad descision being racist.  That's not racist, it's logical thought.   If the last ten times I went into the rich part of town and got beat up by ten white guys, I would avoid white guys, and harbor resentment toward white guys.  This is an instictual survival tactic.  Just like if the last few times I pet a pitbull I got bit, I would avoid pitbulls.   If A causes B, and B is painful, bad, detrimental, whatever, then I will avoid A.  That is called reasoning.  It is all about who you perceive as a threat.  It is also called stereotyping.

Stereotyping exists for a reason.  As much as no one wants to admit it, stereotypes were not created by some lonely nut on a mountain top.  If stereotyping is racist, then the police as a whole work by racist policy, ie. racial profilling, which was not a red herring as you said, but instead it was Mike pointing out a blatant example of hypocrisy.   And if you say that making an opinion on limited experience is wrong, then no one is entitled to an opinion, as no one has had every experience or met every person in the world.  

In closing, the opinions expressed were not bigotry, but instead simply the results of interactions with police officers, which, for whatever reason, were construed as threatening to the safety of the above mentioned expressees.
 
It is possible to have nothing but respect for individuals while still disliking an institution.

I hate Wal-Mart for their corporate practises. I have no problem whatsoever  with the guy at the door who hands out stickers.

It's a similar situation with the police  except emotion will run much stronger because the inherent potential for either positive or negative actions is stronger because of the powers that apply.

Either way, police or no police- the manner in which this "bust" was conducted is signifigantly detrimental to Mr. Watson's continued ability to do buisness and as I understood the nature of tickets and busts, many of them are of either debatable in the eventual outcome (it seems many may be overturned if properly approached in court) or could be reasonably called outside the realm of his control. If enough of a demand for an apology is made in the approperiate manner, there may be a positive resolution to this in the future.

Perhaps an offer to allow a certain number of officers, uniformed or plainclothes in to inspect before opening  to the public would be accepted for future swaps. This would serve to  both  show Mr.Watson's cooperation and desire to comply with the law and is easily enough told to vendors so as to entirely avoid any problems. If something of this nature can occur it will lead to a general feeling of cooperation between the fish and wildlife department and the herpers living there. After that point, it becomes much easier for herp societies or prominent individuals to make reccomendations about some of those laws and get things changed legally.

That general attitude has been pretty effective in several other areas where problems of this nature existed and,  while slow, it's nice and legal and allows for much more say in the laws that affect your animals.
 
Lee is USDA licensed as a zoo and exhibit. They are, under that license allowed to inspect his property any time they wish. THey could have come in before the show. You guys miss the point entirely, they wanted to be dramatic and they wanted to hurt the business that they see as a problem.

As for all of you who are harping on Illinois, The same exact thing happened in Indiana a couple years ago and many states like Arizona, California, New York, and Ohio have the same or more oppresive reptile laws (those are just the ones that I am aware of). If you disagree with all the restrictions to keeping reptiles, fight them in court! Fight them through your "elected" officials!

Ken, to correct you on that alligator thing, it does not exist, it was struck down in court some time ago. There is no legal way for them to seize alligators in Illinois. After Lee brought copies of the laws and regulations from his home that the officers did not have, they were forced to release the alligators. Evan Stahl
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guys miss the point entirely, they wanted to be dramatic and they wanted to hurt the business that they see as a problem.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I did not miss that at all.

I also did not miss the fact that the general public often has a slightly distrustful attitude of any and every action taken by "government agents", they've been conditioned to be somewhat wary of anything resembling a drug bust.

I did not miss the point that this could be handled in a manner that ends up on the news complaining about the manner in which it was conducted... The woman who's children were searched showing up on the 5 o'clock news is public opinion death for the state fish and wildlife department.

I also did not miss the fact that cooperating... voulenteering to cooperate BEFORE being asked to do so by those in a position of prominence (Mr. Watson for example) making a public request for inspection but publicly requesting it being done at a certain time would constrict the actions of those agencies because public support DOES have an effect on things.  Like how much funding they get next year.

If someone in a position of respect and authority comes forward and speaks out stating that people should obey the law... requests that they do so at an event they run... and then says that perhaps these laws need  some revision, they can't be called an extremist and the public media eats that sort of thing up.

I apparantly understood what you were saying far better than you understood what I was saying. I also apparantly understand the manner of altering public opinion in order to effect change in either the laws  surrounding animals or at least the manner in which they are enforced.

If Mr. Watson were to make a request for an agent or agents to inspect the animals involved before hand, it removes a great deal of liability from him, it allows the other vendors and the public to avoid the problem, it looks good to those uneducated individuals in the general public who are suspicious of herps to start, making a public request would be PR suicide if it was handled in an identical manner in the future after a reasonable request was made, it allows the individuals requesting alteration of the law to appear law abiding and reasonable and the only thing anyone involved would have to do to avoid trouble would be- Fail to bring animals that are illegal to sell into the premesis.

This cooperative attitude followed by a reasonable objection to bearded dragons falling under the aquatic organisms act (or whichever specific law was applied to the species, as an example) is far more likely to get positive results than going on TV and blasting the law enforcement agencies that were involved.
 
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>  I dont live in Ill, but her in Texas when an animal(s) confiscated for leagle reasons ie the owner was arrested and is sitting in jail.  The animal(s) in question are sent to a zoo or rescue facility to be held untill said owner or family with owners consent goes to get the animal.  There is a set amount of time this is alloud.  Here it is one week.  If the animals is not picked up it will be put down.  No ifs and or buts.

I know this because my husband works for the phone co and he was working on a line when the city animal controll came to retrieve a 7' boa that had escaped its encloser (broke through the glass) It was all cut up to the point whenr it might not live.  My husband told me about it and I asked him to talk to the rescuers and see if we could watch or adopt it.  THen we learned the previous.  We could not have the snake because it would be stealing.  See it is a nono to save an animals life by putting it in the care of someone who could care for it or atleast find someone who could.  They would rather put the snake down instead or deal with a little thing like stealing.  Ok now this part is what makes it all worth while hehe.  They said they would treat the snake.  Try to keep it alive and get it better if they could............Think about it.

I have no personal perblems with any one employed byt eh state I understand that basically their hands are tied.  I know it wasnt animal controll making those stupid a$$ rules up.  I dont want to suggest to anyone to break the laws.  But come on people yous your head.  Follow something other than your paycheck.  Your heart would be a good choice. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

That is just my 2cp worth
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mike, I did not ask for a red herring.

The question still stands. Now then, can you answer the question without using pseudoreasoning? </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Sure, its not pseudoreasoning.  It's factual reality.    Cops do it all the time.  They even get on TV and swear up and down they wont do it any more after they get busted doing it in the first place.  More facts not psuedoreasoning.  

Step out from behind the shield and smell the stink the rest of the world smells in law enforcment.  It may not be you, but tons of your fellow cohorts do it all the time.  

Let me ask you this since your the last honest cop, would you stop your buddies from beating Rodney King? or stop them from ramming a broom handle up the rectum of a innocent vicitim?  Would you stop them from chasing a suspect for a minor traffic offense that leads into a major chase that kills a family or child?  Would you take the high ground and report these guys to your IA Dept.?  would you stop or report your buddies stealing from the WTC tragedy?
Or would you just hide behind the "Blue Code of Silence" like the rest of your cohorts?  Afraid to be labelled a rat working for the rat squad?  

Law enforcement is suposed to "Protect and Serve" and its a sad day that we have to have an IA Dept to watch all the curroptness in them.  

And as for the same old tired line of our tax dollars pay your sallary, sorry but its more facts and truths so get used to it dont hide from it.  I am tired of paying for abusive lying thieves that work with you.  After all it is our money your earning, so step up and earn it.  Rid the Force of the negetive cops and do youself and the U.S. a  favor.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">unless you count the 16 weeks or so they spend in police academy and a GED. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
A person with a GED would have a very hard time finding a job in law enforcement. Most states require that law enforcement officers have a minimum of an Associate's Degree. Furthermore, most agengies prefer candidates to have a Bachelor's. Significant weight is given to education during the hiring process.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ken, to correct you on that alligator thing, it does not exist, it was struck down in court some time ago. There is no legal way for them to seize alligators in Illinois. After Lee brought copies of the laws and regulations from his home that the officers did not have, they were forced to release the alligators. Evan Stahl</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Evan, would you be able to supply me with the case law on this? The versions of both Acts that I cited were current, and I could not find anything in the Illinois Compiled Statutes that contradicted them.

The problem with the Dangerous Animals Act is that it is vague, at best. What constitutes a "dangerous" animal is subjective, and I'm sure cases have gone both ways. The rulings of some lower courts unfortunately don't have the power to strike down the law on a state-wide level.

As for the Endangered Species Protection Act, on 15 February of this year, the Logan County Circuit Court ruled that "that an American Alligator is a threatened or endangered species and does require a permit from IL Dept. of Natural Resources." in the case of People v. Harlow. Mr. Harlow appealed to the Fourth District Appelate Court, but I do not believe the case has yet been heard by the court.
 
I'm done with this thread entirely, even on the original subject of Lee Watson. You're all free to espouse your bigoted views unchallenged by me.
 
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