'Legally' obtaining threatened Banded Geckos? Any Sources?

[cherribomb]

This has come up a few times, in a few forums recently...with no decent answers:

I'm having enough trouble finding a reputable breeder with high-quality Coleonyx mitratus (C.A. Banded Geckos)....Does anyone know if there's a way to obtain threatened geckos such as C.switaki (Barefoot) and C. Reticulatis (Reticulated/Big Bend)??

I mean, other than illegally poaching. I was hoping that there were a few "underground" herpers that have succesfully bred captive-born colonies, as these would be legal to trade/sell (I think??)...but no one seems to have any knowledge of this.

Any input?

 

[reptilebreeder]

I'm having enough trouble finding a reputable breeder with high-quality Coleonyx mitratus (C.A. Banded Geckos)....Does anyone know if there's a way to obtain threatened geckos such as C.switaki (Barefoot) and C. Reticulatis (Reticulated/Big Bend)??

I mean, other than illegally poaching. I was hoping that there were a few "underground" herpers that have succesfully bred captive-born colonies, as these would be legal to trade/sell (I think??)...but no one seems to have any knowledge of this.

Any input?

So you're saying if someone illegally poached them and then bred them, they would then be legal to sell? I don't think so. Perhaps you can find some that have been "laundered" but they would probably still be considered illegal, or at the least unethical.

 

[cherribomb]

No, no...I completely agree with you that poaching is unethical, unenvironmental, and that the rules are in place for protective reasons...

What I perhaps phrased badly was that, since these herps are threatened, not endangered, they CAN be legally collected with the correct permit(s) and by following the restricted guidelines (ie, limited collection.

Collection can actually benefit the conservation of threatened animals when correctly overseen by environmental protection org.'s.

If these animals are collected LEGALLY, captive-bred offspring are usually viable for trade and sales. Wild-caughts are not.

 

[reptilebreeder]

No, no...I completely agree with you that poaching is unethical, unenvironmental, and that the rules are in place for protective reasons...

What I perhaps phrased badly was that, since these herps are threatened, not endangered, they CAN be legally collected with the correct permit(s) and by following the restricted guidelines (ie, limited collection.

Collection can actually benefit the conservation of threatened animals when correctly overseen by environmental protection org.'s.

If these animals are collected LEGALLY, captive-bred offspring are usually viable for trade and sales. Wild-caughts are not.

Well, I can't speak for the laws where C. Reticulatis are, but being from CA, re; C.switaki it is very rare that those types of permits are given out, and even when they are, selling/trading of even the offspring, is never permitted under such permits.

 

[cherribomb]

I'm in California too...and for some reason, my herping experiences are different (I would like to state that I'm an observer, NOT a collector.)

Not one Coleonyx species is listed under The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (C.I.T.E.S.). This means that all members of this genus can be exported from the United States WITHOUT a permit. Yes, this means you can export a colony of Coleonyx switaki from New York to Madrid and no one would stop you.

Surprisingly, NO species of Coleonyx is listed as threatened or endangered under the federal regulations of the Endangered Species Act...no regulation here either. This means you could breed a load of Reticulated Geckos and freely sell them in Maine. No one would stop you.

These little guys are only (and rightfully so!) protected by environmental legislation specific to their own states. A GOOD THING, if you ask me. However, captive-bred geckos do not fall under this legislation.

I'm not looking for illegally garnered Coleonyx species, I'm looking for educated, responsible people who have successfully colonized these guys in captivity.

Stop trying to create an argument based on misinformation and the incorrect assumption that the majority of herpers are unethical bastards. Go picket Petco if you're bored.

 

[Ophis]

Stop trying to create an argument based on misinformation and the incorrect assumption that the majority of herpers are unethical bastards. Go picket Petco if you're bored.

uh oh

 

[Borewyrm]

I'm in California too...and for some reason, my herping experiences are different (I would like to state that I'm an observer, NOT a collector.)

Not one Coleonyx species is listed under The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (C.I.T.E.S.). This means that all members of this genus can be exported from the United States WITHOUT a permit. Yes, this means you can export a colony of Coleonyx switaki from New York to Madrid and no one would stop you.

Surprisingly, NO species of Coleonyx is listed as threatened or endangered under the federal regulations of the Endangered Species Act...no regulation here either. This means you could breed a load of Reticulated Geckos and freely sell them in Maine. No one would stop you.

These little guys are only (and rightfully so!) protected by environmental legislation specific to their own states. A GOOD THING, if you ask me. However, captive-bred geckos do not fall under this legislation.

I'm not looking for illegally garnered Coleonyx species, I'm looking for educated, responsible people who have successfully colonized these guys in captivity.

Stop trying to create an argument based on misinformation and the incorrect assumption that the majority of herpers are unethical bastards. Go picket Petco if you're bored.

Are you kidding me? Just wait for a post to show with the information you are looking for. The thread was in no way hostile untill YOUR last paragraph. If a poster doesnt know what CITES protects and what it doesnt (and by the way if you need to inform what CITES stands for its not worth replying) then its not worth responding.

 

[reptilebreeder]

I'm in California too...and for some reason, my herping experiences are different (I would like to state that I'm an observer, NOT a collector.)

Not one Coleonyx species is listed under The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (C.I.T.E.S.). This means that all members of this genus can be exported from the United States WITHOUT a permit. Yes, this means you can export a colony of Coleonyx switaki from New York to Madrid and no one would stop you.

Surprisingly, NO species of Coleonyx is listed as threatened or endangered under the federal regulations of the Endangered Species Act...no regulation here either. This means you could breed a load of Reticulated Geckos and freely sell them in Maine. No one would stop you.

These little guys are only (and rightfully so!) protected by environmental legislation specific to their own states. A GOOD THING, if you ask me. However, captive-bred geckos do not fall under this legislation.

I'm not looking for illegally garnered Coleonyx species, I'm looking for educated, responsible people who have successfully colonized these guys in captivity.

Stop trying to create an argument based on misinformation and the incorrect assumption that the majority of herpers are unethical bastards. Go picket Petco if you're bored.

First of all, you put "legally" in quotations, then said you were looking for "underground" breeders. I don't assume the majority of herpers are unethical just ones that are looking for "legal" and "underground" breeders. Secondly what misinformation? I know for a fact that CA very rarely hands out those kind of permits, and when they do they specifically don't allow selling of the offspring. Thirdly, C.I.T.E.S. are not the end all be all, all inclusive laws covering wildlife. Ever heard of the lacey act? well it was written for people exactly like you, ones who are looking for "loopholes" because they think they can get around laws as long as they aren't C.I.T.E.S., one of the laws covered under the lacey act is that any transporting of animals that are protected under a state law shipped across state lines is illegal. Therefore you can't ship switaki out of CA. The example of the person who ships them from NY to madrid, though they might not go after them, they are "circumventing" a CA law and are in violation of the lacey act (a federal crime).
....and lastly, you live in the state where the law applies so even if the "guy in NY" had a legal loophole it would still be illegal for you to buy any, as you live in the state where the original law applies.

I thought I was answering nicely when I stated CA doesn't allow those kind of permits, but you got yourself all bunched up anyway. oh well. good luck with your search for "legal underground" breeders (and may they be undercover F&G)

 

[cherribomb]

Thanks for hijacking the thread to provoke a debate when we all have the species' best interests at heart and it really isn't necessary.

All I have to say is that this reminds me of the discrepancy between California's Propositon 14 and the Supreme Court. A little bit paradoxical, if you will.

Anyways, I am not looking for an argument...which is what you seem to have been after from the beginning. To each his own. Just don't respond to legitimate questions with blatantly argumentative posts if you want to protect Fauna's great reputation and avoid provoking needless debates....such as this one.

I'm out. Please, continue to troll and flame all you want...its not worth my time to respond.

 

[Ophis]

Seems to me like you were caught with yout pants down, your weak defense was crushed and your now running off with your tail between your legs.

 

[Borewyrm]

Even if I did know somewhere to get animals on a grey market.... why the heck would I post an answer to someone with all of 4 posts, if at all on a public forum.

 

[g&mgeckos]

This thread just doesn't make any sense anymore. You ask a question you were given an answer and you "may have worded your question wrong" But there is no reason to get mad at the answer you get when someone is trying to help you. There are so many very cool species that are perfectly LEGAL to work with WHY mess with something that could cause you and our hobby harm?

 

[Borewyrm]

LOL no it doesnt make sense. I still cannot see what was said that was offensive. But I got a PM telling me essentailly that I am a jerk. I have no clue what I said that caused her to take offense, as the PM doesnt really make sense. I am not even certain what this thread is about, none of the reptiles mentioned are protected under CITES anyway, but if they are restricted by california law ( i would have no clue as I live in NY) I dont understand why a cali resident would be asking about getting them.

 

[cherribomb]

What a mess...

I don't think anyone's "a jerk" on here...in fact there are several people posting to this thread who I have had a lot of respect for a long time in terms of opinion and experience...

I was just defensive when everyone jumped down my throat because they didn't understand the situation.

I run a rescue centre, mostly for abused leos, but I also have several "threatened" species..such as these Bandeds... that I love as my pets. They were given to me legally as "rejects" from scientific experiments that obtained appropriate permits. I do not want to breed them for professional/illegitimate purposes, but as I own them and they cannot be released, I am looking for possible mates for them.

I was hoping that there were other people in my situation who also had threatened Bandeds through similar circumstances

I aplogise for being defensive and I'm sorry this post when south so quickly but I feel like I'm getting a lot of hostility from people who have little to no understanding of the situation at hand.

 

[Ophis]

What a mess...

Self inflicted

I feel like I'm getting a lot of hostility from people who have little to no understanding of the situation at hand.

Considering your previous posts regarding various herp laws as related to others posting their knowledge regarding same, I suggest the shoe is actually on the other foot!

 

[reptilebreeder]

I was just defensive when everyone jumped down my throat because they didn't understand the situation..

I didn't jump down your throat till you got bunched up in your third? post. While your situation may be a little different than the norm, it doesn't change my answers, my answers are what the laws are, your "unique" situation doesn't change that.

They were given to me legally as "rejects" from scientific experiments that obtained appropriate permits. I do not want to breed them for professional/illegitimate purposes, but as I own them and they cannot be released, I am looking for possible mates for them.

Once again I can't speak for the other ssp., only C. switaki but there is a reason they were given to you, it was as I stated in my original responses, even with those types of permits Ca won't allow you to sell them. The fact that you were given some, should have made you more cognicant of that fact, and makes your "hostile" third post even more puzzling, as it was going to what I said.
I still don't understand why you want to breed them, just because you have some?
As it relates to C. switaki and CA law, even though you were given some from someone elses' permit, you may already be in violation of possession laws, as it wasn't your permit (this I am not 100% sure of, hopefully the giver knew what they were doing so as not to put their permit in jeopardy) you most certainly would be in violation if you aquired and/or bred more, even though the ones you have may be "legal".

I aplogise for being defensive and I'm sorry this post when south so quickly but I feel like I'm getting a lot of hostility from people who have little to no understanding of the situation at hand.

Like I said, the laws don't really give you any exemptions, so it was more of you not liking the answers and your initial hostility, that caused the thread to go south, than of my "not knowing the situation" and my "hostility"

That said welcome to fauna, and I hope your little guys are good and you can appreciate your unique opportunity to have aquired some, and leave it at that, so as not to take unnecessary or unethical chances.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

California Law

Does anyone know if there's a way to obtain threatened geckos such as C.switaki (Barefoot) and C. Reticulatis (Reticulated/Big Bend)??

The reason these animals are threatened is obviously because there is a way to obtain them. How? People go out and collect them illegally. Here is a direct quote from the California DFG regarding the C. sSwitaki:

"The rarity of this species makes it desirable for illegal collection by reptile hobbyists and commercial collectors. Anza-Borrego Desert State Park affords protection for some gecko habitat, and the DFG is involved with a federal habitat management plan for BLM land on which the gecko occurs."

Our laws here in California can be ambiguous and vague, but it makes itself very clear in regard to native reptiles... especially endagered species. As far as other Coleonyx variegatus species and sub-species, it is perfectly legal to collect them as long as you have a valid California Fishing License. The State does require a permit for captive keeping of these lizards, but does not allow their propagation for commercial purposes and therefore will rarey issue a permit of this nature.

If you would like further information, I suggest contacting the California Dept. Fish & Game and speaking to Kathi Kline (916) 227-1305 for a "Native Reptile and Amphibian Permit".