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Leucistic/ Snow Whites.. Smaller in Size?

J

jbell

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hello. bearded dragon hobbyist for some years. recently renewed my interest with a leucistic line purchase. I have owned 2 beardies (one snow, and one leucistic)from separate, well regarded breeders (i presume).
both were incredible "runts". healthy, but notably small. Coincidence, or general trend? thanks for insights.
jonathan
 
jbell said:
hello. bearded dragon hobbyist for some years. recently renewed my interest with a leucistic line purchase. I have owned 2 beardies (one snow, and one leucistic)from separate, well regarded breeders (i presume).
both were incredible "runts". healthy, but notably small. Coincidence, or general trend? thanks for insights.
jonathan
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hi jbell, may i see your two dragons photo~
Thanks:)
 
Georgia Bearded Dragons had the nicest leucisitic dragons Ive come across. Big and hearty Fire and Ice dragons had some nice ones also.

IMG_3021-1.jpg
400+ gram female leucisitic

the mutation is not full of runts no
 
True leucistic's that use to be found 3-4 years ago, before the term "Marketed Leucistic was coined ( I think by the Dachiu's) because the gene was crossed out so much it was not a true leucistic gene.
From what I remember The leucistic gene was a hearty, larger, and longer dragon. They would weigh somewhere in the 5 600 gram range and quite lengthy at 27 inches. ( i had one 4 years ago, he was a big boy. an so was most of the offspring. The ones i could still locate at that time.)
At this time I do not a have true leucistic, I doubt that many do. I have a couple of "Marketed leucistics" one is a double het leatherback and the other is one I produced. See pics. thanks, Tom

Pic one is a female that i produced 7-8 months ago?

and pic two is of the dad. "marketed leucy leatherback double het"
 

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thank you for the responses.
my female looks very similar to your 8 month old female in size and color.Mine,
supposedly is 2 years old(??)
regardless, i am in it only for pleasure, not for breeding and she seems healthy and interacting appropriately.
Interestingly, you answered another question, as over the years i did not understand the terminology "marketed leucistic".
jonathan
 
There were some good debates/discussion on kingsnake back maybe 7-8 years ago. You may be able to find these in their archives? As far as I know there has never been a true leucistic. The marketed leucy is just a line of hypo . If you cross a "leucy" to a hypo you should theoretically get all double hets....when in reality you just get all hypos.
 
is it true that "snow whites" are a different term for the same hypopigmented line as the leucistics?
 
Its funny how things change. I had what was called a snow a long time ago. It was just as white if not whiter than what you see here. But it did not have clear nails.
 
chris allen said:
There were some good debates/discussion on kingsnake back maybe 7-8 years ago. You may be able to find these in their archives? As far as I know there has never been a true leucistic. The marketed leucy is just a line of hypo . If you cross a "leucy" to a hypo you should theoretically get all double hets....when in reality you just get all hypos.
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My " Leucy " male that I had was not a hypo, was not even het for hypo. He was white to slate grey in color and had a small amount of yellow around his eyes. Good point with the "never a true leucistic" as it was lacking a few traits to make that call. But crossing leucy's to hypos only added color to that genetic trait. And furthered them from the "leucistic gene". If you look at the first pic of the juvie female i produced she has small light blue side bars and the yellow tint to the head and neck area. That is the hypo gene showing. Does it everytime. Sometimes there not even as light as her. Most of them are more colorful. Did anyone see Kevin Dunne post on k.s.? It was a classified about leucistics a while back on kingsnake. The title stated " look at the color on these leucistic". But what kind of sense did that make? Leucistic's dont have color. You dont find leucistic's anymore, and most marketed leucy's, dont even look white/leucistic.
 
dragonluver83 said:
You dont find leucistic's anymore, and most marketed leucy's, dont even look white/leucistic.
Click to expand...
Thats just it....there never were any leucistics. The marketed leucistics were and still are the "leucistics". If there ever was, it wouldn't have changed in color.....thats why I suggested the crossing of the hypo and a leucy. If they were different, the colors never would have changed....a leucy is a leucy is a leucy, lol. Its not like they would have become extinct...unless there was only one of them and it was lost or every person that had one never bred them. I think a true leucy bearded would be cool, but have yet to see one.

Post a pic of your "leucy" you had, id like to see. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of that snow girl I used to have...think I may have had two of them, one was called a hypo snow, the other was some kind of snow cross. I have the pics on cd's for sure, but which cd is the question....I probably have 20-30 cds of pictures from over the years and not all of them are marked.
 
chris allen said:
Thats just it....there never were any leucistics. The marketed leucistics were and still are the "leucistics". If there ever was, it wouldn't have changed in color.....thats why I suggested the crossing of the hypo and a leucy. If they were different, the colors never would have changed....a leucy is a leucy is a leucy, lol. Its not like they would have become extinct...unless there was only one of them and it was lost or every person that had one never bred them. I think a true leucy bearded would be cool, but have yet to see one. .
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Well maybe not extinct, (get back to this) BUT when they were around "leucy's / marketed leucy's whatever you would like to call them. The particular type of genetic trait didnt seem to be very desirable? You had breeders that wanted to carry on with this trait. BUT it seemed to be about producing color in dragons. You know, the orange dragons, bloods, chris allen reds ;). An when the hypos and translucents came into the country, I wasnt around then but i am sure it was a big thing to work with them.
Back to the extinct comment. Maybe there border line extinct. :shrug01: Not because it died off, But because it was crossed out. The luecy gene was pretty much bred out. Just like a leatherback, A Italian leatherback is a Italian leatherback until you cross it to a American leatherback. Now its a mix of both. Its no longer just a Italian leatherback. An when yrs and yrs of crossing the two lines you kinda "kill off" that genetic trait. Maybe its just how I see it. :shrug01:

chris allen said:
Post a pic of your "leucy" you had, id like to see. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of that snow girl I used to have...think I may have had two of them, one was called a hypo snow, the other was some kind of snow cross. I have the pics on cd's for sure, but which cd is the question....I probably have 20-30 cds of pictures from over the years and not all of them are marked.
Click to expand...

As much as I would love to post pics of him, I do not have pics of him.( I dont think, I have to check my moms computer) I had him 4 yrs ago and sold him after I bred him. I was in a small living area with a smaller area for my dragons. You know who he kinda looked like. ( i looked for the site but it was gone) bearded dragon. biz. They had pics of there breeders and they had a pic of a "marketed leucistic/ Leucistic". Chris you may remember the site because they were around for 4-5 yrs a yr or two ago? he resembled there dragon. Of course different in his own way.
 
That's funny lol. The leucism couldn't be bred out of them in that sense. I don't think they faded away because it was bred out.....maybe more so that it was just a marketing tactic from the beginning and people realized that. You can selectively breed them to be lighter or darker but nothing more than still just a light hypo. I know who you are talking about. I sold him a red back when I was getting out I think.
 
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chris allen said:
That's funny lol. The leucism couldn't be bred out of them in that sense. I don't think they faded away because it was bred out.....maybe more so that it was just a marketing tactic from the beginning and people realized that. You can selectively breed them to be lighter or darker but nothing more than still just a light hypo. I know who you are talking about. I sold him a red back when I was getting out I think.
Click to expand...

:rofl: How is it a marketing term, when its been known a recessive trait? Ppl bred hypo dragons back in the day for the lighter color right? then someone had a smart idea of crossing a light colored dragon (hypo) to a leucistic (another light dragon) maybe in hopes of keeping the light colors? So marketing terms, I doubt it. A true Leucistic trait, I doubt that also.

You keep saying hypo like its apart of the leucistic trait. It is its own genetic trait all together having no link to the leucistic trait. Someone crossed those two genetic traits getting lighter colored dragons and after bred enough they were getting white looking or atleast a "lighter colored" dragon that was then a "hypomelanistic" dragon.
 
We're talking dragons.....leucistic dragons never existed. It was a marketing tool to sell light colored dragons with clear nails(originally by one breeder). Im serious go to kingsnake and search 2003 and you will see alot of discussion on them. People were breeding them and also hets and not getting leucistics.......they never existed. Why do you think rob and vickie started using the term marketed? It is and always has been just a light hypo. Why else would you be able to cross a hypo and a marketed leucistic and get all hypo?
 
Sandfire used to ship a lot of pastels(hypos) to Europe long before the "leucistics" arrived here in the states. It could very well be the same genetic.

Josh
 
pdragon said:
Sandfire used to ship a lot of pastels(hypos) to Europe long before the "leucistics" arrived here in the states. It could very well be the same genetic.

Josh
Click to expand...

So we sent them dragons, and they came back with the same bloodlines with a different name?

Chris,
Can you send me the link to that k.s. ad? If you have it?
 
It's possible. Both marketed leu and pastels are compatible.

I made solid white hypos years ago, from breeding pastels to normal grey dragons(to remove color). The same could have been done to make marketed leu's.

Josh
 
Just go to their forum and when you search you can change the years....put in 2003. You'll actually find one post from paul morlock....east coast rep for sandfire at the time....good post. I remember him selling hypopastels and they were pretty nice even compared to todays hypos....I have pics of them as well as I had a small group. Dude, just think about the genetics of the so called leucy's and how the genetics of a true leucy should work(forget about the fact they are the least leucy looking leucy of any reptile I have seen). None are solid white, most have some kind of pattern, they don't have solid eyes, and don't reproduce as a recessive leucistic should.
 
Very true, I have seen snow dragons lighter and whiter than leucy's. I will check out those posted articles/discussions, thx.
 
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