limit this site to sells for pet. propagation. education. collecting purposes

[justatwinturbo]

Sure, if that's what you want to use the site for, there's a section called Member to Member flea market for items that don't fit in any of the existing categories.

edit - oops I see Brian already pointed that out!

You mean I can just post it in the turtles and tortoises for sale section, if the sausage is made of snapping turtle?

Really, I think it's being blown way out of proportion, the difficulty of recognizing which posts are being sold for food, and which are for pets. You don't have to pick apart, or analyze each and every post. It's blatantly obvious that the snapping turtles are being sold as food, every bit as it was obvious that radiated tortoise in the auction is a scam. Maybe you don't have to delete the post, but maybe some sort of disclaimer should be required to keep people from opening and being offense by the post "for sale common snapping turtles (warning, sold as food)". Really I don't care either way at all, if you want to allow the sales of turtles as food, that's fine. I do stand by my opinion that this is a forum meant for personal collection of fauna, and the purchase of food, and habitats for our fauna. Not a place to sell food to people.....unless that post was moved to the area I was suggested to sell my super cheap snapping turtle sausage pizza.

 

[snowgyre]

Lynching fest aside...

While I personally find it deplorable to sell wildlife, legally or otherwise, to the Asian markets right now considering the western black rhino was officially declared extinct yesterday due to poaching for the Asian medicine market, at least the state of Georgia now issues commercial licenses to keep track of turtles sold and exported to Asia. This legislation was only enacted a couple of years ago. Prior to then turtles were being exported with no regulation and no limit (to my knowledge).

Do I think it was tasteless to post such an ad on this site? Yes. Would I have allowed the ad to persist had I been in Rich's shoes? No. However, the ad did bring into public awareness that exportation of our native fauna to Asian markets is a huge problem. In Georgia turtles are protected. Other states lack protection. If you really want to make a difference, start contacting your state Department of Natural Resources (or whatever your state calls the office) and your state legislators. I find it hopeful that a state as inherently conservative (and thus anti-environmental) as Georgia passed a law protecting native turtles by regulating the trade. I hope other states follow suit.

 

[kanozig]

I never meant for this to get so out of control, it seems like Ron maybe knows the seller? I dont really know, but, the seller nicely notified me and said he sells his turtles for $150 each and that.... he does not sell for meat... so, at this point....... his word is good enough, besides that, it really doesnt matter.... only because, it legal like Rich mentioned..... Sorry for stirring up trouble... at least it brought attention to quiet a few very important subjects... for the recorded, I did receive infractions (4 points) for posting in a wrong area.

 

[snowgyre]

Kevin, you brought up a valid concern that obviously other folks were also concerned with. All such concerns should be encouraged to be raised.

And honestly, if you're selling to Asia, you're selling turtles for meat. Either your international broker is lying to you or you're lying to yourself. Simple as that. No one buys pet snapping turtles for $150. No one goes and catches snapping and musk turtles in such bulk with intentions to sell them to a nonexistent Asian 'pet' market. Let's at least be honest here.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

This site is not appropriate for the wild catching of native wild life being sold for food. End of discussion.

 

[justatwinturbo]

Asia has a huge pet market for mud and musk turtles, as well as spotteds and other small turtles not native to Asia. So yes, the musk turtles are going there as pets. At one point they were paying nearly 400 a piece for stripe necks.

 

[kanozig]

oh yea! you mean like these cute pet turtles?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/14/china.animal.keyring/index.html


sorry I just couldnt refrain! lol

not sure about you guys but a 60 pound snapping turtle hanging from my keychain would kinda get cumbersome!!!

 

[WebSlave]

The point is that some of you apparently want ME to make the determination of what a proposed sale of animals is intended for. That I should be some sort of investigator, perhaps grilling the person placing the classified ad, and I guess doing the same for any prospective buyers. Yes?

You all want ME to take the brunt if I guess wrong about someone's intentions. You want ME to take the legal heat if I damage someone's reputation by publicly castigating them for POSSIBLY engaging in something that although distasteful, seems to be perfectly legal to do. Yes?

You all are SERIOUSLY overestimating what I am willing to do for YOU.

 

[GekkoCorner]

I understand now how this would be impossible to control. I also see how many people care about this issue from the great amount of responses and views to all the links to the mentioned adds/ forums etc.

Would it be at least reasonable to have these adds placed in other sections of the classifieds? NOT in the same sections where we sell our beloved pets? Like we have a place for feeder animals, and you guys do not allow feeders on any other forums. how about bulk/human food animals for sale like these belonging in another section perhaps? like ' All other herp related material'? or ' Trading and bartering?

just my two cents.

You do a great job with this website Rich. I am just posting about this here because it bothered me and apparently a lot of other users as well. We care enough about your site to write our issues here But at the same time we all have to respect the rules and the moderators... I got 4 points infraction to prove it

The point is that some of you apparently want ME to make the determination of what a proposed sale of animals is intended for. That I should be some sort of investigator, perhaps grilling the person placing the classified ad, and I guess doing the same for any prospective buyers. Yes?

You all want ME to take the brunt if I guess wrong about someone's intentions. You want ME to take the legal heat if I damage someone's reputation by publicly castigating them for POSSIBLY engaging in something that although distasteful, seems to be perfectly legal to do. Yes?

You all are SERIOUSLY overestimating what I am willing to do for YOU.

 

[hhmoore]

Turtles by the pound isn't all that different from the old corn snakes by the foot...and it doesn't always mean that they are for food. (okay, I'll admit that specifying Asian market does point toward that).

The simplest point is that we aren't micromanaging the classifieds to that extent.. We don't read every ad; and we don't offer guarantees that the sellers are legitimate, that the animals/items are legal, or anything else. I understand that the concept is offensive - or, at least objectionable - to some...but I don't get some of the logic that has been tossed around in this thread. (I would go into more detail, but I'm out of time.)

Oh, btw, what's with all the comments about the infractions? Whether you guys are whining, griping, commiserating, proclaiming, taking one for the team, or playing martyr - it's gotten old, already. Let it go.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

As I read over this thread the last few minutes I found lots of points to address. I will forgo them at this point.

In the end my thoughts lie not with if such advertising should be allowed, Rather that I would want to know where my animals were going.

If a advertisement is blatant then there is no question, right?

Well who would send their animals off to slaughter? Some would and some wouldn't.

If someone on here is asking for wholesale lots (which many dealers and breeders do) then you would have no idea where the animals end destination could be. They could be resold to a foreign buyer. They can end up in a hell house and die a slow painful death of neglect.

At least with the knowledge of the destination you can make a informed decision. Sell and buy to who you choose.

How many low grade lots of snakes, or normals sold here ended up as food for someone or some other pet? How many here asked before they sold? If you did, are you sure you got a honest answer?

It seems to me that if you care, you would rather see it in the ad and take note not deal with that person.

If someone doesn't care, do you think that it matters?

How is not allowing the mention of the animals destination going to stop anything?

If not illegal to sell and export and they don't mention the destination, you would never know, correct?

So other than feeling good that you didn't see it mentioned in the Ad what would be accomplished from banning such a classified?

For Hong Kong market Common Snapping Turtles (WC) Adults

It would simply be changed to

large wholesale lots wanted. Can you beat this price?

So who loses out? Surly not the guy who needs a large amount turtles to send wherever. And not the guy who needs to move a lot turtles fast and doesn't care where they are going. I think the only person that loses is the person who would have second thoughts or wouldn't send their animals to slaughter because they weren't allowed to be informed.

I'd rather know instead of feeling all warm inside that we didn't allow people to tell them in the ads.


I'm going to waffle a little here and go back to couple of points I was thinking about as I read this thread.

I'll just say splitting hares about feeders raised for consumption of other animals "our preferred pets" as some how noble and tasteful in comparison food harvested for humans is a bit ridiculous.

Go over to a rat fancier site and explain to them the noble endeavor you have undertaken to support the animal you care to breed, collect and propagate. Just maybe they will repeat that out of place Gandhi quote that someone posted on this thread. How we treat our pets.. After all, our pets are better.

Actually, I think that's a good point. Would someone who breeds pet rodents like to know if you are using them as feeders? If they are breed as pets, of course they do. They would like to know if you are using them as feeders and decline if they choose.


It is better to know than not to know so you may make a informed choice.

Most will not be as stupid to go to a site where a particular animal is cherished as a pet and advertise they are buying for food. Most would not advertise that fact. Many would be deceptive that would post in such places.

It's interesting how we can all look at a situation differently when most of us might feel the same way.

For me it is, thanks for letting me know not send you my animals.

For others, "ban him, delete his ads."

Others, "oh this site allows this, I'm leaving and many or coming with me." "I'm not contributing anymore"

To each his own. I think mines rational. Well, it's mine of course I do.

One last thing, If you think Rich bends a knee to threats or whines from advertisers for dollars, or anyone threatening him to leave or not contribute over a issue you haven't been on this site long enough.

 

[justatwinturbo]

Go over to a rat fancier site and explain to them the noble endeavor you have undertaken to support the animal you care to breed, collect and propagate. Just maybe they will repeat that out of place Gandhi quote that someone posted on this thread. How we treat our pets.. After all, our pets are better.

Actually, I think that's a good point. Would someone who breeds pet rodents like to know if you are using them as feeders? If they are breed as pets, of course they do. They would like to know if you are using them as feeders and decline if they choose.


It is better to know than not to know so you may make a informed choice.

Most will not be as stupid to go to a site where a particular animal is cherished as a pet and advertise they are buying for food. Most would not advertise that fact. Many would be deceptive that would post in such places.

Just to address this point you've maid, I'm only a little sure that if someone went on a rat lover forum, and posted "for sale, large lots of dumbo rats. I have 3000 plus rats, sold by the lb, to zoos. Skip the middle man, I will sell straight to you. I have a price in mind, but looking for the highest price I can milk out of you" that post would be clearly identified, and deleted. It doesn't take a degree to reverse engineer that kind of post. If its really not that obvious to you that these snapping turtles are being sold as food, then I'm sorry for assuming. I didn't realize they had enough room for large aquariums in their bathroom sized apartments. I'm not begging for the deletion of this thread, its obvious that's not going to happen, and it matters not to me. Moving it would probably make a ton of people happy though. Thoughts?

 

[kanozig]

Webslave, I was never directing this directly at you personally, or in any way really for that matter, something shocking caught my eye, and I wanted it to be brought to the attention of anyone who cares, or doesn't care for that matter... from what it sounds like, unfortunately ( meaning the big stuff falls on you and I am sure it can suck and get frustrating), yes you are the owner, you do carry the burdens, the heavy loads of this site, you technically DO have to baby sit people on here, or at least have moderators do that, I do not know if this a a full time or part time thing for you, but it sounds like you are pretty damn committed... no one said it would be easy... it doesn't matter if you like Horses, reptiles, or show rabbits!.... the animal world is crazy... and full of crazy people! It is something us animal lovers NEED to deal with... sometimes on a daily level, depending on how involved we are with our hobby, our passion, our life? I feel bad I brought all this up... there are two sides, and I am seeing both, Webslave, I do believe you see our side, but, I see where there is not a TON of stuff you can do, more because... from a national, government level, he is not breaking the law, that we know of... Sorry if you feel this all rests on you... I am a teeny weenie bit glad though that is subject got brought up... here is a fun article about box turtles.

http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/box-turtles.html#cr

 

[kanozig]

and for the record.... I am going to stop talking about this. not because I think massive exploitation of wild caught animals is ok, but for one because I do see both sides, and, though Ive never eaten wild caught anything, other then fish. I am guilty of owning in the past wild caught reptiles, in someones eyes, I am sure I am just as guilty... secondly though, because my point has been made. and re made by other members... I like... love this site... and I do not want any door smacking me in the butt... I know webslave is very busy on here and if anything, minimally, thank you for taking the time to address this.


Kevin

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Just to address this point you've maid, I'm only a little sure that if someone went on a rat lover forum, and posted "for sale, large lots of dumbo rats. I have 3000 plus rats, sold by the lb, to zoos. Skip the middle man, I will sell straight to you. I have a price in mind, but looking for the highest price I can milk out of you" that post would be clearly identified, and deleted. It doesn't take a degree to reverse engineer that kind of post. If its really not that obvious to you that these snapping turtles are being sold as food, then I'm sorry for assuming. I didn't realize they had enough room for large aquariums in their bathroom sized apartments. I'm not begging for the deletion of this thread, its obvious that's not going to happen, and it matters not to me. Moving it would probably make a ton of people happy though. Thoughts?

Who said it wasn't obvious? In my post? Nothing in my post came closed to stating that I didn't think it was obvious. To the contrary, My post stated that being obvious in any such postings (buying or selling) in general, is a blessing to those that care.

 

[justatwinturbo]

Who said it wasn't obvious? In my post? Nothing in my post came closed to stating that I didn't think it was obvious. To the contrary, My post stated that being obvious in any such postings (buying or selling) in general, is a blessing to those that care.

Sorry, that part of my post wasn't meant to be directed at you. If you've read the whole thread, some have given the impression that its not obvious enough to say "hey, you're selling these for meat...this isn't walmart, go away"

 

[bcr229]

In the end my thoughts lie not with if such advertising should be allowed, Rather that I would want to know where my animals were going.

If a advertisement is blatant then there is no question, right?

Well who would send their animals off to slaughter? Some would and some wouldn't.

Thank you. I personally would refuse to sell any of my animals, which includes my horses, to the slaughter market. As a seller I do have some options:
1) Not sell anything, but that's not realistic,
2) Interview the purchaser, though some people will commit fraud or lie, otherwise there would be no need for the BOI,
3) Price the animal above the slaughter market threshhold so someone buying for that purpose wouldn't profit from it, or
4) Sell with a first right of refusal/buy-back contract, that is, if the buyer tells me the animal will be a pet or to fill a hole in the breeding program then that's great, but if the buyer wants to sell the animal in the future I get the first opportunity to purchase it at market price given its future age and condition.

It would be appreciated - and maybe even a potential rule? - that "Wanted" ads in the classifies should indicate why the poster is purchasing (resale, pet, breeder, etc). With most it's obvious already, and if the poster lied in the Wanted ad then that would be the bannable offense.

 

[allreptiles1966]

Lots of good points.
I personally have to agree with Willowman on 1st page.

I dont like how its done either,but we all use insects,rodents and many other things to feed on or too,.Thats their way of life and who are we to tell them they are wrong for eating turtles? I think its sucks someone is going to the pond and just cleaning them out for a quick $. But,its not illegal and till its is,i am for the op to do whats legal in his state. Maybe we as a whole can do something to stop this crap?

What about the rattle snake round ups? Thats right in some of your back yards. Thats not right either,but legal still. I believe . And i big deal to some. But they have venom ,so its ok to catch and kill them to eat and make gifts?
If they were being sold on our market to eat,would it be ok?

 

[enharmonic]

I can't see anywhere on this website where it states that the sale/trade of reptiles on said website should be strictly pet oriented. Turtles fall into a category promoted by this website. Turtles being eaten for dinner or not is irrelevant. I would be just as inclined to care not if there was someone buying bearded dragons to throw on the grill with BBQ sauce. I would simply exercise my right to refuse the sale, in favor of someone who will treat my dragons the way that I feel they deserve: as pets. Turtles just happen to be a more readily accepted food, just like frog legs or alligator meat (both of which I am fond of). If anything, Webslaves attitude towards it just makes me love the website even more, if feels truly free, and gives the people quite a bit of power to influence each other. He does not need to directly involve himself, the offended party must simply take action on the BOI with an "info" thread.

 

[Helenthereef]

In the spirit of giving "feedback" I'm glad the OP did raise this. I found that ad jarring too, and thought it inappropriate here. I get the freedom to post arguments too, but it just doesn't' seem to be in line with the spirit of a reptile enthusiast site to be taking part in the Asian mass food market industry.

Given the argument that drawing a line is difficult, we do, as members, have the tools of karma, trader level, and BOI info threads to use to express our dislike of a post or poster, and maybe all of us who do feel that this ad was inappropriate could express that in one or more of those ways.