Line breeding

[dturner100]

Hello,

I'm trying to learn more about line breeding, and inbreeding in ball pythons, but there is little written about it in detail online.

Anyway a few of my questions are: Does line breeding really help to intensify a trait? For example if you have a spider that has low white, would line breeding increase it's offspring's level of white? Or another example if you have a genetic reduced patter ball python would inbreeding, or line breeding intensify the pattern reduction in the offspring? If so how many generations would it take to make a drastic difference?

Also is there a generation limit so to speak where physical deformities will start to show up?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Dustin

 

[WingedWolf]

Line breeding is usually done to prove out a genetic trait--breeding the offspring back to an unusual parent to prove the unusual look is a recessive trait.
Whether line-breeding will help to intensify something like high white in a spider depends on whether high white is genetic. If it is, then it may work. But that was a bad example, because breeding one spider to another probably gives you 25% loss (co-dominant with a lethal super--supers never hatch).

There isn't a set 'generation limit'--deformities can show up if one of the snakes has the genes for something bad. Line breeding can expose hidden genes for deformities and negative traits. If those genes simply don't exist in the snakes, then no amount of inbreeding or line breeding will cause that result. Most animals do carry some bad genes, however--random mutations canceled out by the 'good' copy of the gene they carry.

Remember, what we consider desirable mutations are just chance 'deformities' of a sort that affect color or pattern instead of body shape or other vitals.

 

[Bob O'Brien]

Is the lethal super a fact? I thought that it was still opinion, Im probably wrong and if it is a fact please correct me.

 

[ReptileJay]

Is the lethal super a fact? I thought that it was still opinion, Im probably wrong and if it is a fact please correct me.

I had never heard about spider being lethal as super before. I was always under the impression that the reason no "super spiders" exist is because unlike many other mutations, spider was fully dominant. This would mean a homozygous spider could exist, but wouldn't look any different than any other spider (and would produce all spider offspring).
I could also be incorrect, but I had never heard that a lethal super form had been verified.

 

[dturner100]

I've heard stories of the super spider being a lethal gene, but I've since been shown rock solid evidence that spider x spider breeding can produce healthy offspring. The whole clutch were spiders, so I don't know if it's a co-dom that missed the percentages, or still just a dominant gene, but there are spider to spider breeding that are not lethal.

A lot of people read one story set up by a huge breeder such as nerd, or what not about lethal genes, or hidden genes and rather than investigate they spread the story like a wild fire, and it becomes fact in their minds.

Just a question to think about: Has anybody actually seen a hidden gene woma, or lesser that produces wild morphs when bred, or have they seen certain morphs bred to those morphs that just produce a crazy combo? For instance the super stripe. Breed a spector to a yellow belly. You get the super stripe. No hidden gene. It's a simple combo that produces crazy morphs.

So in general I'd say ( just my opinion ) that a lot of the stories about hidden genes, and lethal genes are just rumors started form big breeders trying to keep certain combos out of the lime light because that would bring down the value of "their" morph it became projects in mass.

 

[SnakeGirl3]

The spider being a dominant trait rather than co-dominant would produce supers that didn't look any different from a heterozygous spider, and I did see a clutch of spiders posted somewhere involving a normal and a spider, and all of the hatchlings were spiders. It was only one clutch, and to prove the spider parent being a super it would have taken a few more clutches producing all spider offspring to prove it out, but I don't think the "super spider" is proven lethal. Would be interesting to prove that out though, and see if indeed a "super" could reproduce. Anyone with a spider you're breeding, if you have 2-3 clutches from the same spider that produce all spider offspring, let us know! LOL

 

[garweft]

You don't see a whole lot of selective line breeding in snakes. There are some projects but the best example of selective line breeding has to be in leopard geckos. Look at pictures of a superhypo tangerine carrot-tailed baldy and compare that to a regular old normal. Every trait in that morph is through selective line breeding.

About the closest thing we have in BP's would be some of the selective breeding of pastels that happens. It is a co-dom trait, but breeding the best pastels to the best pastels tends to produce really stunning pastels. Where if you grab the ugliest pastels you can find you tend to end up with more ugly pastels. Other snake examples would be the reduced or vanishing pattern hondurans, vanishing pattern corns, and extreme red albino hogs.

 

[dturner100]

You don't see a whole lot of selective line breeding in snakes. There are some projects but the best example of selective line breeding has to be in leopard geckos. Look at pictures of a superhypo tangerine carrot-tailed baldy and compare that to a regular old normal. Every trait in that morph is through selective line breeding.

About the closest thing we have in BP's would be some of the selective breeding of pastels that happens. It is a co-dom trait, but breeding the best pastels to the best pastels tends to produce really stunning pastels. Where if you grab the ugliest pastels you can find you tend to end up with more ugly pastels. Other snake examples would be the reduced or vanishing pattern hondurans, vanishing pattern corns, and extreme red albino hogs.

Matt, very good thoughts bro, but by line breeding I'm referring to the breeding of for example the sire to a daughter. For instance some say that if you have a genetic black back but it has some undesired spots on the back and breed it to its own daughter, then granddaughter, and so on the future generations would lose the undesired spots. It's a way of cleaning.

( by the way if that's what you meant, and I read you wrong I apologize )

I know what you mean about the selective breeding though. We should all practice it.