Bad Guy Lloyd Heilbrunn

[jwarren1]

Bought an expensive pair of texas indigos from lloyd, the female came in with open sores all down the body and the tip of tail missing. Evenually found out the reason; she had a severe case of mites. Lloyd didn't dislose any of the damage and represented these as flawless. When initially confronted he didn't come clean and offer any kind of mitigation on the deal even though there was no way he could've missed the damage when shipping out. Not very straight forward dealer.

 

[Fangthane]

Bought an expensive pair of texas indigos from lloyd, the female came in with open sores all down the body and the tip of tail missing. Evenually found out the reason; she had a severe case of mites. Lloyd didn't dislose any of the damage and represented these as flawless. When initially confronted he didn't come clean and offer any kind of mitigation on the deal even though there was no way he could've missed the damage when shipping out. Not very straight forward dealer.

Do you happen to have screen shots of the ad, or whatever pictures you may have been sent prior to purchase? How about posting current pictures that show the various damaged areas, as well? Also, you may want to post the email exchanges, specifically anything to back up your claims that the snakes were represented as "flawless", to go along with pictorial evidence that they're currently not in the promised condition.

 

[jwarren1]

practice is for buyer to disclose damage on animals, browse through any classifieds all the honest buyers list any defects inthe ad for high end animals, in phone conversations I asked if there were any flaws such a scar or rostral abrasions and was told no. other than that I have alreay spent much more time on his deal than I really had available due to the issues. I have pictures and emails of everything but don't see much advantage to myself to post everything here. If you want to buy from lloyd in the future more power to ya!

 

[Matt2979]

practice is for buyer to disclose damage on animals, browse through any classifieds all the honest buyers list any defects inthe ad for high end animals, in phone conversations I asked if there were any flaws such a scar or rostral abrasions and was told no. other than that I have alreay spent much more time on his deal than I really had available due to the issues. I have pictures and emails of everything but don't see much advantage to myself to post everything here. If you want to buy from lloyd in the future more power to ya!

If you're not willing to post any proof of your accusations, I'm not understanding why you brought this here in the first place. Would you want everyone to listen to "Joe Blow" tell us that YOU did something wrong, and for us to believe that person at their word, without seeing ANY proof? If the story is worth telling, seems like it would be worth telling thoroughly.

 

[DaveyFig]

I don't see Lloyd disputing it. If/When he does, that would be a good time to have proof in order.

 

[Matt2979]

I don't see Lloyd disputing it. If/When he does, that would be a good time to have proof in order.

Does Lloyd know that this thread exists? I don't know either party involved. I just like to know that facts are indeed "factual" before any statements really mean much to me.

 

[DaveyFig]

Does Lloyd know that this thread exists? I don't know either party involved. I just like to know that facts are indeed "factual" before any statements really mean much to me.

I don't know if he knows or not.

He hasn't made a statement about whether this is true or not though. I would rather not buy from him based on the original post than give him the benefit of the doubt. I too base decisions on "factual" evidence. The fact is, the OP is not happy with what he got, and Lloyd hasn't disputed it.

When Lloyd comes here and disputes it, then I would ask the OP to back up his claims. Until then, I feel the warning is enough for me.

I am not taking the OPs side. I just don't think he is required to provide anything here. If Lloyd confirms what the OP says, then he is wasting his time. If Lloyd argues against it, the OP has said he has proof to back up his claims.

Lloyd very well could be a great guy to deal with, but I would rather regret not buying something than regret buying something.

 

[DaveyFig]

I emailed Lloyd to let him know about this thread.

 

[Discojaguar]

THere has been barely ANY time for the seller to notice/be made aware of this thread let alone dispute it. I think crossing him off a list of people to deal with is jumping the gun a bit. Because of the buyers attitude and lack of evidence other than his word (look at some other BOI threads going on at the moment and see how good someone's mere word turned out to be) is making me swing the other way.

This should have been an info thread, rather than a bad guy thread IMOP

I don't know if he knows or not.

The fact is, the OP is not happy with what he got, and Lloyd hasn't disputed it.

When Lloyd comes here and disputes it, then I would ask the OP to back up his claims. Until then, I feel the warning is enough for me.

 

[DaveyFig]

THere has been barely ANY time for the seller to notice/be made aware of this thread let alone dispute it. I think crossing him off a list of people to deal with is jumping the gun a bit. Because of the buyers attitude and lack of evidence other than his word (look at some other BOI threads going on at the moment and see how good someone's mere word turned out to be) is making me swing the other way.

This should have been an info thread, rather than a bad guy thread IMOP

I haven't crossed him off of any list. I will say that I would not buy from him until he posts here. I don't care if that is today or next year. If you do not trust the buyers word, then by all means buy from Lloyd without hearing his side. If you wait though, Lloyd may come here and confirm what the OP says. Other BOI threads have no bearing on this one. One person telling a lie without proof doesn't mean that everyone that doesn't have proof is lying.

I think that if the animal was sent in the condition described then it should be a bad guy thread. I would just like to see Lloyds response before demanding proof. The OP could be bluffing. In that case, Lloyd should have no problem coming here and defending himself. If Lloyd calls him on it and the OP has the proof, it should be shown.

It is interesting that people do not ask for proof when people say positive things.

 

[Fangthane]

I am not taking the OPs side. I just don't think he is required to provide anything here. If Lloyd confirms what the OP says, then he is wasting his time. If Lloyd argues against it, the OP has said he has proof to back up his claims

HUH?
You are arguing against the idea that an accuser should provide evidence to back up some pretty serious allegations? Whether or not it's 'required' of him, or that the seller may be conspicuous by absence, I just don't understand what would be gained by being so quick to condone an accuser's refusal to substantiate his claims.

 

[DaveyFig]

Honestly, I have been wanting to purchase some cribos for a while, and have only really looked at Lloyds ads.I would like to purchase from him at some point, but that would depend on how this thread goes.

I am all for an accuser providing evidence when something he says is disputed. I am not attempting to gain anything by condoning anything. You asked for proof, which he says he has. If he refuses to substantiate any claims following a rebuttal, then maybe we can beat it out of him. Until then, the ball is in Lloyd's court. If he is not responding to this thread then I assume he is probably not in a place to respond to inquiries about purchases either. There is no harm in waiting for a response here before proceeding with a purchase. I would hope that nobody would buy anything without hearing from him whether here or via email before hitting the send button on paypal. I mentioned that I notified him of the thread, so we will see what happens with that.

The accuser doesn't feel like posting proof will help. Do you? What will the OP gain by posting? Approval? Backing? Credibility? Unless Lloyd is in some way swayed by those things, do any of them matter in this thread? If Lloyd feels he is right, proof is only for those who don't trust the OP. If he is right, I wish them luck.

 

[Fangthane]

The accuser doesn't feel like posting proof will help. Do you? What will the OP gain by posting? Approval? Backing? Credibility? Unless Lloyd is in some way swayed by those things, do any of them matter in this thread? If Lloyd feels he is right, proof is only for those who don't trust the OP. If he is right, I wish them luck.

For his credibility's sake, yes, I think it would help. At the very least, it wouldn't hurt.

Suppose someone who was already considering a purchase from Lloyd reads this thread before he chooses to respond to it. Maybe they've purchased from him before which has lead them to believe he's a Good Guy. Being that the OP doesn't feel it's worth his time to provide what evidence he has, they decide to continue to give Lloyd the benefit of the doubt, and end up getting an injured, mite-infested snake for their trouble.

I know it, it may not be the most likely of hypothetical scenarios, and you could argue that someone would be a fool for purchasing from him after reading this thread. My point is that the OP choosing to put minimal additional effort into this by posting a few emails and pictures, very well could be a much bigger help to the community. Isn't that what the BOI is about, actively trying to make the online herp community a safer place?

Ostensibly, based on his second post in this thread, the OP has no intention of providing anything, whether or not his claims are refuted. That just seems like an extremely odd stance for the OP to take, and for others to endorse.

 

[DaveyFig]

I am not endorsing a stance of not supplying proof. I just don't think he should have to post it before Lloyd comes here. If Lloyd doesn't come here, that says something too.

The OP has not hinted that he wants anything out of this. He posted about his experience. It is one that he felt required a bad guy thread. Perhaps there is nothing the Lloyd can do to make this right in his mind. Posting proof for those who will not take his word (perhaps there is something they know about the OP that deserves suspicion?) is not going to help him. If Lloyd calls him a liar, posting proof will help his credibility.

Lets get Lloyd's opening statement before going on with the trial. That "proof" may keep Lloyd from coming at all. I wouldn't want to run him off before he gets to say anything.

 

[Fangthane]

The accuser doesn't feel like posting proof will help. Do you? What will the OP gain by posting? Approval? Backing? Credibility? Unless Lloyd is in some way swayed by those things, do any of them matter in this thread? If Lloyd feels he is right, proof is only for those who don't trust the OP. If he is right, I wish them luck.

I am not endorsing a stance of not supplying proof. I just don't think he should have to post it before Lloyd comes here. If Lloyd doesn't come here, that says something too.

Those posts aren't exactly expressing identical sentiments. Unless I'm somehow reading it wrong, the first is supporting the decision to refuse to supply anything to back his claims up, as you seem to be implying it'd serve no worthwhile purpose. The second seems to be expressing a more 'wait and see' approach. Which, unless the OP suddenly decides to change his mind, is seemingly made moot by this statement:

I have pictures and emails of everything but don't see much advantage to myself to post everything here. If you want to buy from lloyd in the future more power to ya!

I don't want to keep derailing this, but I just think you're coming way out of left field here, while advocating a course that really doesn't benefit anyone at all. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it this way.

 

[DaveyFig]

Those posts aren't exactly expressing identical sentiments. Unless I'm somehow reading it wrong, the first is supporting the decision to refuse to supply anything to back his claims up, as you seem to be implying it'd serve no worthwhile purpose. The second seems to be expressing a more 'wait and see' approach. Which, unless the OP suddenly decides to change his mind, is seemingly made moot by this statement

If my posts expressed identical statements I wouldn't post twice. I tried to elaborate.

First I said he doesn't think posting proof will help him. I then asked if you do.

You said it could help his credibility. I don't see where there is reason to question his credibility until Lloyd makes a statement.

We don't know if Lloyd will confirm or deny any of this. If Lloyd comes here and accepts responsibility and apologizes, why should the OP prove anything to us? If he says that the OP is lying, everything changes.

At that point, I would question both, and request proof from each.


That brings us to the second quote.

 

[jwarren1]

I'm not sure why my credibility is in question other than the seller was a member for longer than myself and maybe buddies with some of the posters, I browse the site and occasionally buy something, I resgistered on the site for the sole purpose to make this thread as a public service to the next guy, take it for what its worth,

when I buy an animal I don't have the expectation to get into legaleze over what the definition of is is, I expect the seller to tell me if the animal is jacked up, go look at lloyds ad (big beautiful adult indigos), I bought over $3000 worth of snakes from lloyd this year, the animal had issues, I have a right to make this post, if your internet buddies with the guy sorry to offend but get over it

 

[Fangthane]

I'm not sure why my credibility is in question other than the seller was a member for longer than myself and maybe buddies with some of the posters, I browse the site and occasionally buy something, I resgistered on the site for the sole purpose to make this thread as a public service to the next guy, take it for what its worth,

when I buy an animal I don't have the expectation to get into legaleze over what the definition of is is, I expect the seller to tell me if the animal is jacked up, go look at lloyds ad (big beautiful adult indigos), I bought over $3000 worth of snakes from lloyd this year, the animal had issues, I have a right to make this post, if your internet buddies with the guy sorry to offend but get over it

I have absolutely no relationship with anyone involved. For those of us that don't know either party, why is it unreasonable to want some evidence? Spin it any way you want, but your refusal to back up your claims will likely reflect poorly on you, to degrees that will vary depending on who is reading this thread.

In the time it took to make your most recent (mostly useless) post, you could have given us something to substantiate your claims and have it here in black and white for all to see. You got a really bum deal but you want to half-ass it and not go the couple of extra steps in making sure people know just how much you were wronged? Seems suspect to me. Stomping your foot and saying 'I don't wanna' is simply a nonsensical choice that serves no purpose that I can see.

 

[bxjoon]

I agree that there should be some kind of proof to back up these claims. How are we supposed to look out for anyone if we don't know why.

 

[Lucille]

From the BOI Rules
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8880

Proof is optional, but recommended if you would like to remove any doubts about the truth of what you are posting. But this is purely up to you, just as the believability of what you post is purely up to the reader of your words.