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looks like another "HOT" topic

T

the vipester

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someday i would like to get into hots. (not for a few years anyways) and would like all the hot keepers to give there opinions on the sale of venomoids. the good and bad things about'em and if it should be done.

the vipester

aka

Justin Parker
 

Hello,
      I don't know that there is a hot out there that is the best one for a first time dealing with hots.  The best advice I can give is stay away from elapides (mambas, etc....) at first or maybe period.  They are very in your face kinda snake.  I have some different copperheads I am messing with and they are not that bad.  However, you have to be very responsible.  I don't believe in free handleing venomous snakes.  Just my opinion!!
They say the copperheads are fairly docile and mildly venomous.  However, they are still venomous.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Gilbert Thompson
   
 
I'm no expert on the subject of hots or venomoids, but I see it as nothing more than people altering an animal for their convenience.  People don't want to take the responsibility of keeping or handleing and animal in its normal state so they alter it in some fashion to make it more convenient for them. If it causes no lasting harm to the snake I personally don't have a problem with it.  To me it is no different than spaying or neutering done for convenience (ie non medical reasons) or having the "barker" removed from a dog (something which I hear New York, or some other large city, is trying to ban)

Its an interesting topic, thats why I threw in the spaying and neutering thing because I think it will generate a few more responses.  Hopefully the response will still stay withing the venomoid context.

Steve Schindler
 
Sorry justin,  I am not a HOT keeper, but I am curious as to why you wanted response limited to them.  Is it because you do not think people that do not keep venomous snakes can not have an informed opinion on the matter because of their lack of experience.

Steve Schindler
 
i own several hots,but no venomoids..i've been around plenty of venomoids and if done right,i dont see a problem with it.
plenty of people get their dogs and cats spaid or nurtered.along with ear and tail cropping-so just about everyone allters their pets to suit their needs.hots can make very good display animals and theres nothing like holding an 8ft eastern diamond back-With No Worries.
this is just my opinion.
                                  Jason Kiper
 
No worries? Fangs from an 8 foot rattlesnake would still probably be a hospital visit, ouch! Although I'm sure it's nothing like an envenomation. Personally, I think the biggest problem with venomoids is people who get them for all the wrong reasons (lookee here, ma, gots me a king cobra). We don't need anyone giving the government a reason to ban more pets.
 
Interesting topic.  First I'd like to address the issue of spaying/neutering.  It isn't just for the convenience of the keeper, it is the responsible thing to do for the animal.  If you've ever gone through a pound or SPCA and seen the hundreds and hundreds of animals that are put down every year because they are unwanted, you would understand the need.  I have volunteered in the past with both the local SPCA and Humane societies and witnessed first hand the number of unwanted animals, especially puppies and kittens in the spring and summer months, that are almost surely going to be euthanized because there aren't enough homes to take them.  Until people begin to take the responsibility to sterilize their pets, the trend of euthanization will continue.

That said, I personally don't agree with the removal of venom glands in a venomous snake just like I don't believe in cropping the ears and tails of dogs.  That is done solely for the convenience of the keeper or for what a person thinks the animals' appearance should be.  It serves no legitimate function.  I personally don't keep hots because I do not feel that I have the experience or circumstances available to keep them safely.  Keeping hots should only be done by experienced keepers and those willing to take the personal responsibility for a dangerous animal such as a venomous reptile.  If a person is not willing to commit themselves to the proper safety proceedures required for keeping these animals, then they really shouldn't be keeping them in the first place.

This is just my opinion and should be taken as such.

Dianne
 
I don't agree with taking out the fangs of venomous snake at all.  The only reason anybody would do that in my opinion is so you can show it off.  Like Dianne said spaying or neutering is benificial because it prevents the over population of dogs and cats.  All defanging snakes is doing is depriving it of their ability to defend itself and eat.  I know that there is always pre killed rodents but never the less they were born with there fangs and they should die with them. They should not have them taken out because somebody thinks they look cool and wants one, but cant be responsible enough deal with a snake that still has the capability of hurting or killing you.  I mean how would you like to have part of your  mouth removed against your will for no reason at all.  With that said I started out with pigmy rattlesnakes which were very agresive (for me anyways) and cottonmouths which were fair tempered.  If you do decide to go into hots start small and something with a mild venom like pigmies, copperheads, eyelash vipers and things of that nature then start working up if you want to.  And as selling them goes, deal with them by yourself for a long while before getting into business with them.

Good luck, Jeremy
 
again i dont keep venomoids-but the fangs stay in and they sure can dfend themselves with them just fine-they just cant kill you...............Jason Kiper
 
Scaring humans by being able to kill them I feel is their best defense, and when people are not affrade of them they are going to mess with the snake leaving it basically defensless. Even though the person my get bit they will only experience minor pain.  Trust me getting bit by a snake like that does not hurt that bad unless you consider getting a shot from the doctor painfull.  So yes they can still defend themselves but it is not going to do any good because their NATURAL defense mechanisms were removed!!  If God intnded for them to not be venomous they wouldn't be.
 
If you are interested in keeping hots start with something like
Wagler's Temple Pit Viper (Tropidolaemus wagleri).  They only defecate about every 90 days so there is less to handle.  And also there bite is not as threatening as a lot of hots.  Also they move very little.  They wont drink standing water so again no need for a water bowl to change mist there cage 3 to 4 times a day.  There are outher factors that make this one of our favorites.
 
Oh  I wanted to mention they don’t take the fangs they remove the venom sacks. We have a few venomoid. It is done with very young snakes and ours were done by a vet.  It is the opinion of the individual rather it is human or not but like was mentioned, my neighbors poor Dobby ran around with a cone on his head for I don’t know how long.  Also my mothers cat had to ware bandages on his front paws for quite a while.  These alterations serve no purpose other that for preference of the owner.
 
Just wanted to add....  It does serve a purpose.  It keeps PEOPLE alive.  I don't see how it's the same as cutting off the tail of a dog.  That really doesn't have much of a ligit purpose.  I don't really have an opinion on the issue, because I am not that informed on it.  But, I have to say that it does serve a purpose.  EVERYONE make mistakes.  BTW, if I was a snake....I would consider the loss of my freedom and a life in captivity a much bigger loss than my venom.  I'm not saying I don't think we should keep snakes...I'm just saying.  Do they care?  Like I said, I'm not well-informed, so I hope I don't look like an ass here.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>  
lucas
 
That depends on what you consider a legit purpose.  To some people, docked ears and tails on their dogs serve a very legitimate purpose (i'm not a dog nut so I doin't know what they are) .  To others , changing an animal so you don't have to take responsibility for it is not a legitimate purpose.

There truly is no right or wrong answer here.  As long as the alteration causes no lasting harm to the animal, I personaly see no problem.  At this point, I would not do it, and I really don't like to see it done, I would like to see more people take responsibilty for their pets but I agree that in some instances it may be the best thing, and if you want to do it, I really can't stop you and I really have no right to try and stop you.

Steve Schindler
 
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'> I'm not a hot keeper, but i am against Venomoids 100% the butchering of animal just so a person can say look at me pick up this cobra is just plain cruel. Also Venom aids in digestion for alot of species vipers and pitvipers for example
Just my 2 cents
Thanks-Chris
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Venom aids in digestion for alot of species vipers and pitvipers</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

And here is the heart of the issue...

Outside of the very stressful and dangerous process of anesthetising a snake and then opening up it's head to remove the venom glands there is a biological reason for the prescence of those glands that's far more important to the animal than self deffense.

Looking at venom glands from a biological perspective in snakes, the tissue is very similar in structure, placement and function to salivary glands. Beyond this there are varying degrees of potentcy when looking at venomous animals. Everything from Taipans, Admamanteus and Mambas to (as has been proposed) garters and Nerodia species as being "warm". When looking for a biological imperative for the evolution of a structure like the venom potentcy  and the delivery methods involved in what are traditionally considered "hot" species it's evident that venom of this magnitude and delivery systems as specialized as a gaboon's fangs or the ability of some Naja to "spit" didn't and wouldn't evolve overnight. Evolutionarily it is believed that venom evolved first as a slightly stronger digestive aid, effectivly pre-digesting the food before it hits the stomach. Snakes don't chew, don't have a lot of peristalisis (grinding motions of the stomach) and their digestive fluids and enzymes aren't very strong... So they digest from the outside in. (Incidentally also why more frequent smaller prey items of the same mass are better digested, more  surface area = more digestion and a more effective use of nutrients) Any abilities that would increase their digestive process and allow for a faster metabolism have very obvious impacts on the sucess of the species. Now, according to basic darwinism as it is a trait which increases survival it will tend, over MANY succesive generations to breed true and increase through both the breeding process and genetic drift... After a period of time it will become strong enough for prey aquisition, imobilising or at least slowing a prey item to the point where it becomes easier to aquire food, again being redoubled through breeding and the stronger survival ability of individuals with even a slightly more potent toxicity (overall of course, venom toxicity and composition changes signifigantly during different times of the year, depending on diet, ovulating females are different, age does have an effect...). Again, basic darwinism, re-enforcing the trait until such a time as it has a use for self deffense. And a continual process that will strengthen it pretty much... forever.

Now... What does any of that have to do with venomoids? The digestive processes of Hot animals are evolved, right along with the  venom potentcy, to utilize these avaliable added nutrients from the "pre-digestion" that occurs when a prey item is envenomated. Their entire metabolic rate is based on a certain level of nutrients being taken in, removing the ability to produce venom and you signifigantly reduce the ability to digest (The "Hotter" a species is, the more it is reduced) and thus there will be, over  time, nutritional defficiencies if the animal does not outright starve.

Further, that surgical process to open them up is enormously stressful, many animals refusing food altogether to a point where they do simply starve to death, the inscisions are easily infected, being in a moist area of the animal's anatomy (generally the glands are removed from inside the mouth)...

And even that doesn't always mean it's safe. Elapids especially, but crotalines and vipers as well, have been known to "re-grow" the glands if there are peices left when the surgery is done... Elapid glands can regrow to some extent from a single cell left intact... So the purchaser thinks they're perfectly safe and loses that edge that keeps hot keepers... Well, alive if not untagged (there are two kinds of hot keepers, those who have been bitten and those who will be)...

Statistics change, depending on their source of course, but the majority of statistics will show that Venomoids  have a very low survival rate, many dying  during the removal surgery and many more within a year afterwards, often of starvation and even those that seem "okay" generally don't live more than four or five years after the process...

It's not safe for the animal. It's not really safe for the keeper.

If you're  considering a venomoid, I've got to ask... Why do you want these animals at all then? The most frequent answer by people considering venomoids is that "They're so cool." and while that's true... it's not an acceptable reason to keep an animal. The reason they are "so cool" is BECAUSE of those biological adaptations, those evolutionary idiosyncracies and adaptations to their environment that made that animal sucessful. They are "cool" because of what they are... ALL of what they are and their natural ability to survive. (Same reason i don't like hybridization and "morphs"... Albinos do crop up in the wild... They are called "Breakfast", deliberatly cultivating them is disgusting).

If you don't want to go through the process of obtaining your keepers permit (in whatever state you live in... Except I think Pennsilvania) putting in your hours, understanding and acting to lower the potential risk without harming or potentially harming the animal then you shouldn't keep hots.

I do keep hots, have for years... I'm a lunatic and I know it... I act in every manner possible to reduce risk- never freehandle, restraining tubes, and hooks, trap boxes, enclosures that can be divided from the outside for cleaning purpouses, everything is locked up tight and I made sure the local hospital has antivenin avaliable... I'm still nuts... But I understand WHY I'm nuts... And I won't hurt an animal in order to make it safer for me to keep just because I want to look like a "tough guy" or whatever the motivating factor is for all those morons who go and get themselves tagged when drunk and freehandling.

And now I've gone and gotten in the mood to lecture about the biology of venom (not just the basic bit up there, but better, faster, stronger&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> so I'm going to wander over to the CU library and hang out near the biology books and make a nusiance of myself to poor students.
 
As  something of a side note... and moving yet further towards those husbandry issues that this forum was not designed for... But something that I felt was relevant to my last post...

Outside of the feeding of smaller prey items, it is important to feed live to most hot specimins because the circulatory system of the animal is the spreading mechanism for the venom in order to gain the desired pre-digestion effect. Knock it in the head perhaps to create a safer situation... Feed off very long tongs  to further reduce any risk to your animal... But make sure that heart is beating. There have been numerous studies... data collection for the most part, it can't in all honesty be called experimentation, on the importance venom plays in the digestive process- animals fed live produced less waste than those fed prekilled, and signifigantly less than animals fed frozen/thawed... And the freezing process itself has an impact on digestability (rub your finger along a frozen rat... see all that hair that came off? The skin is deteriorating) so the results are indicative of an even greater digestive impact.

And of course feeding appropriate prey items is always important  as well. The majority of elapidines eat other ectothermic organisms, mostly other reptiles and both the fang structure, short but thick to puncture scales, and the venom composition are designed for greater impact. The majority of vipers and pit-vipers have longer, thinner fangs designed for penetrating the fur and feathers of endothermic mammilian or avian prey and again, the venom composition supports this feeding method. There are exceptions of course, especially with young specimins but those are basic generalizations about the groups.

Now before I get this deleted... This is a moral issue  surrounding the implications of venomoids and prey used (not that anyone asked, but hey, why not?)  and thus is appropriate... Maybe... At the moderators discretion of course...
 
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