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Louisiana herpers need your help!!!

N

Nicole Elliser

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The Louisiana State Senate is poised to vote for HB1468 which will ban the owning of any non-native reptile in Louisiana without a permit from the LA Dept of Wildlife & Fisheries.
The web address is www.legis.state.la.us

We need some help to stop this from becoming a law!
If anyone has experience fighting these sorts of things we would greatly appreciate any input.
Myself and many other have been on the phone all day contacting senators. I put a call into PIJAC as well!
We just got wind of it today which makes it harder to get to people before the vote takes place.
It has already passed the house and is scheduled for the senate to vote on it early next week!

If you are from Louisiana please contact your
Senator at (225) 342-2040 and also contact
Senator Melinda SCHWEGMANN (who is the woman who added reptiles to the bill in the first place) at (225) 342-6945 or (504) 286-0717 and voice your opinion.

Our rights are being taken away from us, then sold back at a profit to the goverment! O.K. I am off the soap box. Any help would be great!


Thanks !
] :) Nicole Elliser
K&N Reptiles
 
Yeah Nicole, it is happening all over the country because we are not a big money contribitor to political campaigns, it will keep happening. If you can get together some money and talk to an attorney right away, you may be able to buy some time by forcing the gathering of more information or trying to delay a vote pending more testimony and statements but it is not likely to work. You really needed time to prepare for hearings before the vote was called for. One thing that you can do is use your business license, tax ID #, any permits or licenses you have from the DNR or other government agency as a way of proving you were a pre-existing entity to "grandfather" you from being affected by the law. Next I would try to get them to at the very least allow some kind of permit/application/license process for people to have animals outside the confines of the law. Start a signature drive. Get as many names as you can. Call the politicians at every level in your area and make appointments to talk to them about it. Be sure they are aware that people who vote will vote against them. That is always the key. If you can, in the future, make consistent, even if they are not large, contributions to somebodies campaign, they will see your name as a regular giver and listen to what you have to say much more readily and be much more helpful to you. Even a couple hundred dollars here and there, just to get name recognition is a huge help.

My friend Brett Nelson from Indiana is both a herper and an attorney who is taking reptile related cases. He runs adds in reptiles magazine with his firms contact info. Evan Stahl
 
La

The bill has passed the house unanimously and is on to the senate. here is a link to the individual senators in case you would like to email them:http://senate.legis.state.la.us/senators/Default.asp
some pet shop owners i know are trying to organize petitions as a good portion of thier business is reptilian. I have not been able to find out when the bill is to go before the senate as of yet. It was introduced by a democrat and the senate is split, so the vote could be close, partisan as the south is. any advice from others who have defeated such bills is greatly welcome thanx

glenn dougherty
 
I dealt with several pieces of legislation on the state level here as well as went to court against the city that I live in. It is too late to beat it. It is half way there and there is no concern whatsoever in any state governing body about the people who would keep reptiles. They know that it is a very small demographic that has no formal organisation and little funding. They have researchers for that. PIJAC very rarely even bothers to fight reptile laws as they get the bulk of their monies from dog/cat/fish business' and need to worry about those much larger groups. You need to focus now more on dealing with the reality. You guys would have had at least 6-12 months and more likely much more to stop it but you have to be on the mailing lists/notification lists for them to tell you when they are hearing on it. The boat, sadly, has sailed. Now, try to get support. That is all you can do. Once you have a base of support then you can try to have it ammended. It is very difficult but possible to get that amount of support. Herp societies, colleges and universities, any body that has a large membership that may be sympathetic to your cause. There should not be a problem forcing a conditional situation as I stated above with permits or something else. That may be your only cause. Everyone who reads these boards should see something coming their way. Don't wait until this happens to you before you start asking questions. Evan Stahl

One other option, is wait until it becomes law and then intentional violate it, force them to bring you to court and then beat them at their own game and at their expense. You can go after selective enforcement issues, unenforceable law issues, overly generalized legislation, etc, etc.
 
Domino Effect in progress....

Like Evan said, almost every state in the Union is or will be looking at changing laws on how we are "allowed" to keep, collect and/or breed reptiles and amphibians in captivity.
In 1998, the State of Indiana attempted to pass some real strict laws on what we could maintain in captivity and what we were allowed and not allowed to breed. With the help of a small core group, we formed ICORAL (Indiana council on Reptile and Amphibian Laws) and raised $10,000 to hire an attorney to fight against these strict and damaging laws. Unbeknownist to us, the state had undercover fish and wildlife agents pose as herpers and attend all of these meetings. They were abreast of every thing we were trying to do. In fact , as these laws were making there way thru the system, the state did a Raid and arrested 33 people with all kinds of charges. All said and done, the state pretty much won hands down. We are no longer allowed to keep and breed any speices of herp that "could" be native to the state. No longer allowed to keep and breed venomous, no crocodilians over a certain size limit, etc etc.
Now, there are permits in place, and the last time I have checked with the DNR only one person attempted to get one for his cottonmouth. I was told that they do not allow vision or Neodasha cages to house venomous. No one wants all of their neibors to know what they have (part of the permit is you have to have each person sign off on the fourm, telling them you are keeping venomous on your property). The list goes on about what you have to do and how you have to do it.
Pretty much , the hobby is dead or/and dieing in this state.
I am not allowed to say where I got this informaiton, but I was told that 1.) Local States are being persaded to change/enforce stiffer laws pertaining to their wildlife from the federal level, and 2.) that fishing and hunting is at a all time low, and that the state wildlife agencies are attempting to make more laws to combat this down turn (i.e. job secruity).
Since, 1998, Ohio, Alabama, Oregon, and a few other states have either changed or in the progress of changing their laws on keeping/collecting/maintaining herps.
I wish you luck, but know , that you will be fighting up a very steep hill. Most herpers think that if the state isn't banding, what they are currenlty working with, then it is not their concern, but I'm here to tell you from experince, that when one law is passed, others will follow........
 
Do you know anything else about this Ohio legislation? I haven't heard about it. As far as I know there are still no statewide laws, just a pretty simple permit system for native herps.

Erin Benner
 
The restrictions in Ohio include required permits for keeping and breeding anything native to the state. So even if you have captive bred eastern garters, spotted turtles, black ratsnakes, anything, you have to go through the system and get documentation. It is just the start. Ohio was always one of the least restricted states in the country. Now they are going towards more restrictions. For exact specifics, you would need to consult the State of Ohio's fish and wildlife department. Evan Stahl

And Ron, don't forget about the raid in Chicago and increased restriction out west.
 
Since we are talking Ohio.....
Did you know that it is illegal for anyone who is not from Ohio to hunt/collect in that state? Only people from Ohio can collect a turtle, frog, snake, etc. Not even with a hunting or fishing license can you pick up a toad!! This strikes me as being very wrong. I can buy a license and fish or kill a deer or rabbit, but I will be arrested if I find a nice spotted salamander and bring it home.
United States?? Where one has rights?? Hmmmm....
 
Why......

I can understand a state restricting the collection of native reptiles in a "conservation effort", but what is the point in regulating the ownership of non-native herps?

I just don't see the need for someone to be hassled with a permit if they want to keep a leopard gecko, etc...

Can someone explain to me the state's interest in such a bill?
 
Money.

Money for permits. A reason for the departments to ask for a larger budget (enforcement and administration).

Most government employees do not understand that money has to come from somewhere (your and my pockets). So they can enlarge their small area of power by expanding their staff. Unlike the average working Joe or small business owner they just fill out a budget form and MAGIC there is now new funds. The ones in the legislature are the ones that have to generate the funds. They do this by passing laws that require fines ... err I mean permits or fees for the working class to do the things we enjoy.
 
Daniel, it is not just about money. States like Arizona and California you can not have non native venomous animals. There are no permits. Period. You just can't.

States like Tennessee where you can't sell turtles and tortoises, have to have permits for any colubrid snakes and can't have any crocodillians.

Florida where you have to have a permit to possess, own, buy, sell, trade any venomous animals.

Many cities and states are banning constrictors over 6' long, venomous animals, "dangerous" spiders and scorpions, crocodillians and more. Evan Stahl
 
I received a response from PIJAC today here it is in it's entirety for you to read:



Glenn,
Yes, we have been tracking this bill, but as originally introduced it
applied only to nonhuman primates. It was amended in committee and then
passed at the same time. It is set for a vote on the floor of the Senate
next Monday. It is imperative that as many people as possible call and/or
fax their state senators to complain about the process of amending this bill
in the House. There was inadequate opportunity for public participation. Ask
that the Senate REJECT the bill. PIJAC members who do not know who their
senators are, or who wish contact numbers, may obtain this information at
PIJAC's Website: www.pijac.org.
Please let me know if you have further questions.

Michael Maddox



----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Dougherty <mailto:[email protected]>
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:26 PM
Subject: louisiana bill 1468
<http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=31160,31548>
Would you please look at this link. I had been told that your organization
has provided assistance in matters such as these. Reptile owners in
Louisiana, including myself are very disturbed by this. Any
assistance/advice would be appreciated



It appears the bill will pass as there was no adequate time for the public to respond :( it is interesting how a last minute amendment suddenly enveloped all reptiles, i suppose keeping a lowland gorilla somehow equates to a non-native cal kingsnake. The rest of you should observe how the herpers in this state were shafted as other states will undoubtedly recognize this as a easy way to generate revenue. ( of course in other states the funds might not just line someone's pockets--this is Louisiana after all). keep ane eye on the classifieds, Im sure a lot of people down here will be liquidating thier collctions in the near future.

glenn dougherty
 
What is needed is a national organization that keeps in touch with herp societies and such throughout the country. This will give herpers a slightly bigger chip when dealing with politicians and can give some semblence of unity. The problem, as it seems to be with many things, is momentum. What herp society is going to want to be counted among the ranks of a national organization that has one or two, or even no other herp societies as members? On top of that, there is money. It wouldn't take a lot for this national org to simply keep on top of bills throughout the country and to make herpers aware, but very few would be willing to pony up some bucks in the beginning. If I had a few grand lieing around that I could spend on this then I would do it myself, but, unfortunately, I don't. I doubt many do, and, for some reason, I doubt the ones who do are willing to.

I really would like to start an organization that could represent herpers and look out for our rights to keep reptiles, but I really don't have any idea about how to start one that would actually be taken seriously by any government representatives.

Anyone have any ideas?
 
I knew about that law in Ohio, I just didn't know it was new. I thought it made sense to keep track of the native herps, but it is too restrictive in some cases. The part about PIT tagging all native herps does seem a bit over the top too. But I'm glad Ohio is protecting Timber rattlesnakes, unlike some neighboring states I could mention (I'm looking in your direction, PA).
Of course, if you want frogs or snapping turtles, all you need is a fishing license.

Ohio- Protecting Wildlife Unless it's Tasty

Erin Benner

(Not anything against hunting, of course, but there shouldn't be a legal double standard for animals just because you can make them into soup)
 
Erin, timbers are protected in PA and most of their other range now as well. The have been on the list of species under consideration for federal protection, which is kind of silly if you realize that they are found in half the country. The have an enormous range and are not an endangered species in reality. There are many unprotected speices that will be extinct long before animals that are that plentiful and that live in places most will not collect them in. Evan Stahl
 
Oh, I had read that you could still hunt timbers in PA, and a lot of my books make them sound really endangered.
Maybe that was just propoganda.
Guess you never know who to trust, huh? This is why this legal stuff just makes my head hurt. I'd stay out of it, but I don't think any of us can stay out of it at this point :(.

Erin Benner
 
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