Lovell Romans @ Precision Caging defrauded me!

[dayligon]

I hate posting negative stuff. However, I know some of you who have had experience dealing with twits that take your money and never send what you ordered, and I'm hoping you can offer advice based on your experiences.

I've written a rough timeline below, but to summarize, I sent over $3300 to Lovell Romans last June (over 5 months ago!!) for 11 large bearded dragon cages that were to be delivered in 2-3 weeks. Since that time, I have had no success getting in touch with Lovell by phone, and my e-mails were only occassionally answered, usually with lies (e.g., I'm working on your cages right now, your cages on next on the list, etc.). In November I finally received two of the 11 cages, but they were very poorly packed and both arrived damaged. I can actually live with the damage to one of them, but the other is irreparable. I e-mailed pictures of the damage, but got no response. I threatened legal action and got no response. Given all the positive feedback I found for Precision on this website prior to ordering, my experience has really been unbelievable.

I just got done filing a complaint with the IFCC. I'd like to file a lawsuit in small claims court, and intend to do so. However, because I paid via PayPal with an eCheck more than 45 days ago, establishing jurisdiction is tricky (I paid PayPal, they paid Precision). So, what other measures do you recommend I take? At this point I'm most interested in a refund, though I'd let matters go were I to receive my cages in good condition.

Below is the time-line of e-mails. I do not have records of the e-mails that I sent but did not receive responses to.


On 6/3/2005 I contacted Precision Caging about there cages, and got a reply from Lovell Romans (the owner) on 6/8/05.

Additional e-mails were exchanged on 6/22, 6/24, 6/27, and 6/28 to discuss shipping options.

On 6/28/05 I sent $3305.81 via PayPal to [email protected] to pay for 11 reptiles cages plus shipping.

I sent a few e-mails in July that I no longer have on record to inquire about the status of my order. These e-mails were not responded to.

On 8/2/05 I got an e-mail response to an inquiry I sent on 7/28/05. Mr. Romans stated that he was working on a bunch of cages, including mine, and that he would get back in touch with me in a couple of days.

I sent another e-mail on 8/12/05 and got a response on 8/14. Mr. Romans now stated that he had just finished a loarge number of cages and was about to start on mine.

Several subsequent e-mails went unanswered, but I then got a response from Mr. Romans on 9/12/05. The message rambled a bit, but the main point seemed to be that he was having difficulties getting building materials, but I gave him my phone number (he already had it) he'd call frequently with updates on my cages.

I sent several e-mails suggesting that I either needed my cages immediately or wanted a refund of my money. However, these e-mails went unanswered.

On 10/23/05 I got an e-mail from Heather Romans, who identified herself as Lovell's wife. She said that Lovell had injured himself, but would be back to building my cages soon.

On 10/30/05 I got an e-mail from Charlene Burrell stating that two of my 11 cages would be shipped the next day via FedEx. I do not know who Ms. Burrell is. The cages did not arrive by the end of the week. I sent an e-mail threatening legal action to Mr. Romans on 11/10/05 and got a response the same day that the two cages had indeed been shipped. On 11/12/05 I actually did receive two of the eleven cages. However, they had been very poorly packed, and both were damaged in shipping, one of them beyond use.

The day after receiving the cages I sent an e-mail to Mr. Romans with pictures of the damage, but received no response. Subsequent e-mails have also gone unanswered.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Its Horrible !

What I don't understand, is how safe is it to use PayPal if they have no way of protecting you until the sale has been consummated to everyones satisfaction.

Why give PayPal any money when the shipper provides no assurance that the products are even available. Once PayPal gives the seller the money, and nothing is forthcoming.............then what!

Terrible .

 

[Lucille]

Paypal will investigate a claim filed up to 45 days after payment. If I were a buyer and there was a significant amount in the balance, I would file right before the limitations period expired and put it on the seller to explain the delay situation to Paypal, who will freeze funds in the account equal to the disputed amount.

The limitations period for Paypal has now passed; however almost every state has some sort of consumer protection statute. Here in Texas, the Deceptive Practices Act is ferocious in its consumer stance, allowing for attorney fees to be paid by the defendant in a successful claim and up to triple the dispute amount as damages.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Day,
It doesn't sound good. You did your homework in advance on Lovell, and may now be in a situation where you have very limited leverage. Even with the law on your side, you still can't get blood out of a turnip, and can only hope that pressure brought to bear by all influences, this forum included, may eventually get you your product or refund, etc. Just speculation here, but my guess is that financial hard times of some degree are a factor here, as that seems to be the foremost culprit in the lack of communication situations as you describe. Possible illness, etc, only compounds those pressures. You are now a creditor seeking something owed, and certain patterns are predictable in what you can expect from the debtor.
I am not familiar with the various cage makers out there, but do understand the supply and demand interplay of it all quite well. Are there any reliable cage builders out there who may only require a deposit to make your cages, or partial payment, so as to minimize the potential for situations like this? I realize that this does not help you, but may help others in the future if there are other safer builders to steer them towards. Whether dealing with a building contractor, or cage maker, being able to withhold payment-in-full is such a nice incentive to hold on to in being able to insure that the job is completed properly.
Also, as pointed out by others, knowing the rights available to you with the paying instrument, in this case PayPal and their 45 day claim window, is also a must should things start to go awry, just as in hindsight is the keeping of all relevent communications such as emails. I hope something is worked out, and have to assume that Lovell wants a solution too, but may not currently have the means to provide it, and is unfortunately going the no-communications route.

 

[Junkyard]

I am surprised myself. I have purchased 10 cages from Lovell and all but two arrived perfect(the two cages were easily repaired). After I sent him money he was not very quick to reply to my e-mails, but the cages came within 4 weeks of payment.

Lucille is right about the limitations for consumers, some states allow up to 2 years to file a claim on bad business. You are still within your legal means because he just sent two of your cages last month.

 

[greg4000]

Way to long!

If it has been that long, over 5 months, I would definitely start the legal process of trying to redeem your money. I could understand 4-6 weeks, but 5 months!? In my eyes it seems as if he does not intend on sending you the rest of your cages. Be it hard times or whatever the reason may be, you paid for your product and are still intitled to it, or your money back. Gather your evidence and go through small claims court. Sorry to hear about your bad luck, and good luck trying to get your money back.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Part of the answer

is coordinating payment with Paypal so some control over ones monies are not lost forever. I think for the future some kind of restraints have to be placed on Paypal moreso than the receiver of the funds until some verification is made that the goods are available for shipping or that they have been shipped and then, paypal will pay the shipper. That certainly makes for sense then sending money through paypal and never hearing anything again.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Don't know if PayPal yet has, or is anticipating, an escrow option for its users. There are a few escrow services available on-line, and one would have to hope that they make their way into the internet reptile community before too long. How many problems that come here would be minimized by such an arrangement, and it would keep all parties more honest? In the meantime, the buyer needs to stay well within their timeline to be able to contest the payment, although the money can be difficult to retrieve under certain circumstances. My hope, and that of many here, would be that Lovell would get ahold of you, give you the facts of what he can do and when, and then you work something out. With his history of credible business, I have to believe that is still a possibility.

 

[The BoidSmith]

There might be an explanation for all this and it’s probably being typed as we read, as Precision Caging is logged in and reading this thread. Sometimes things happen beyond our control although one would think that 5 months is more than plenty of time to get in touch with someone.

Regards

 

[SPJ]

I am surprised by how long it is taking.
I will agree that he is not the quickest to reply to emails but the times I have ordered from him, the cages arrived within a few weeks.
Sounds like something happened that caused the backlog and the extreme lack of communication although there have been ads posted recently for cages so that makes me wonder, if someone is posting ads for cages, then how come they aren't responding to you?
I think your order needs to be addressed BEFORE any new ads get placed.
There also needs to be some kind of response made here because this is "out of character" for Lovel based upon my dealings with him.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I am surprised by how long it is taking.
I will agree that he is not the quickest to reply to emails but the times I have ordered from him, the cages arrived within a few weeks.

It’s not that they haven’t heard about it or their server is down. They were here earlier today reading this thread. Out of common courtesy they could’ve drop a couple of lines at least stating they might be back later with an explanation.

 

[Junkyard]

I did send Lovell an e-mail and a link when I first noticed this thread. He was upstanding to me when we spoke on the phone back in February, hopefully he will be able to resolve this quickly with Day, now that he has been here to read the thread. The BOI can be intimidating for some when there is a bad thread about them, but I am sure Lovell will take care of things.

 

[BWSmith]

I have known Lovell for several years and have a Hot Room full of his fine cages. He is an honest guy and always seems to do right by people. This is truly out of character for him, but I am certain that he will do what it takes to make it right.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

This thief has not responded in 5 months

what makes you so sure he will respond to this thread. We really dont need a response but a refund! I would pursue whatever legal courses of action are available in getting your monies back. Thats allot of money to loose.

 

[dayligon]

Thanks to you all

for your suggestions and support. As I mentioned in my initial post, I am pursuing legal actions in small claims court, but the filing process gets more complicated with PayPal acting as middleman. At this point I'm still a fan of PayPal as an easy means of transferring money, but I'll never again enter a deal such as this one without having fully researched their terms of buyer protection.

Lovell has still not contacted me regarding my cages/refund, but I certainly hope he does. Using legal channels to settle this is just as unpleasant for me as for him. I really hope this can still be resolved amicably.

-Day Ligon

 

[Dennis Hultman]

hopefully he will be able to resolve this quickly with Day, now that he has been here to read the thread. The BOI can be intimidating for some when there is a bad thread about them, but I am sure Lovell will take care of things.

I had hoped he would have resolved the matter soon or at least, provided a response.
I was interested in purchasing several of his cages and hoped to place the order this month.
I can’t see it happening now. As far as posting on the BOI, he is no stranger to how it goes.
From his first post on the BOI

When I gave him my number to schedule to meet to trade he never called on returned my e-mails. So I would also say beware of this person.
Thanks,
Lovell Romans

Mr. Romans, I would address this issue as soon as possible.

 

[Safierdrgn]

Not that this helps you(at all) right now, but I'm in favor of the 50/50 method as far as payment goes. 50% deposit up front and 50% when the work is finished..then items are shipped. It protects the buyer if paying via credit card or paypal and tends to make the seller want to finish your items to get the rest of the money. If this guys is still breathing and ever answers you, you might want to bring it up to him.

Either way I would still contact Paypal via phone and explain the situation to them to see if they can do anything. It might be beating a dead horse but it's worth the 10 minutes.

~Ang

 

[The BoidSmith]

The person who logged in as Precision Caging had time to read this thread but chose not bother to reply or at least contact Day privately. Making good after legal action has been threatened or after a complaint was posted in the BOI will not change things around now. If they had a personal problem (anyone can have one) they had to communicate it to their client. Apparently they had time to continue advertising cages but not to contact a person they owed merchandise in the amount of $3,300. This is not one of those instances where people say: “what matters is the way a problem is handled after it shows up”. Not when the problem could have been addressed long ago by simply contacting the customer. In MHO it doesn’t really matter if they make good under pressure, they should have done it long ago.

 

[reptilebreeder]

The person who logged in as Precision Caging had time to read this thread but chose not bother to reply or at least contact Day privately. Making good after legal action has been threatened or after a complaint was posted in the BOI will not change things around now. If they had a personal problem (anyone can have one) they had to communicate it to their client. Apparently they had time to continue advertising cages but not to contact a person they owed merchandise in the amount of $3,300. This is not one of those instances where people say: “what matters is the way a problem is handled after it shows up”. Not when the problem could have been addressed long ago by simply contacting the customer. In MHO it doesn’t really matter if they make good under pressure, they should have done it long ago.

I agree with you on that one. How do places like this stay in business? I notice one or two posters say..."he has always been slow to respond to e-mails, but my cages were good". As if that's standard, or even acceptible, business protocol. It is not.
I just do not deal with these kinds of people. I don't care how good the product is. They never seem to have problems responding to the initial purchase request, nor when asking for payment, then all of a sudden...."oh, I'll get around to the e-mails at my convenience....some day...maybe.
This is a perfect example, of what can go wrong. He delays answering e-mails, the time between contact increases to the point where you are unable to tell whether [just] business ethics are worsening, or you're getting screwed.
There are legitimate reasons for delays; computer problems, illness, etc, but when the initial correspondence is so poor, how do you know when a "real" problem occurs?
No, IMHO even if he "makes good" as some people think, he still needs to work on his business ethics.

 

[shrap]

.....and still posting new ads on KS as of yesterday..... is fully aware of this thread but ignoring it..... ignoring all attempts by his customer contacting him to get the situation resolved.

There is no excuse for any of this. People can say all they want that he will make it right, eventually, but it has been 5 months. Sorry to say but 5 months of inaction speaks much louder than a couple of peoples words of him making it right eventaully. He has had way more than enough time to make this right. It is painfully obvious he is just ignoring the situation and has no intention of making this right.