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Mack Snow Lines - Has anyone else had this problem??

KelliH

KelliH

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I have had problems both last season and this season with TSD with Mack Snows/Supers. Many of the eggs I incubate at 80-82 end up male, and quite a few of my eggs incubated at 89-90 result in females. Just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience, or if it's just my bad luck.
 
Hmmm. Thats really weird. I remember reading, it was a possibility that the macks were actually a subspecies of Eublepharis macularius??? If so Maybe TSD is affected accordingly due to the species. That seems to support the theory no?? It would be interesting to hear what others have found. Dang I wish I was working with some. :)
 
Well you and I have spoke about this off of the forum. But yes I had alot of males come from 'female' temps last year. I did not notice any females coming from the higher temps though.

I think it would have to do with subspecies or something, but just a guess. Im convinced there is something different about them. The Macks all seem to make a distinct "chirp" (sound), that I have not heard from the others. Even the first generation outcrossed "half breeds".

To quote someone else "maybe Mack Snows are aliens" LOL :alien:
 
I haven't read up on the macks too much as they're out of my price range, but if they are a subspecies does this make them not a leopard gecko or a new species of leopard? Is there a link on them about this? The possibilities of morphs must be endless with them.
 
Kelli, do you remember what my female was incubated for?? That is very interesting. I wonder if you would still get a mix at 85. How about the sibs do they sex the same way?
 
bbrandonsmom said:
but if they are a subspecies does this make them not a leopard gecko or a new species of leopard?
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It's been said that leos are actually muts from several species/subspecies with in the genus Eublipharis.
 
wow kelli

very VERY interesting!?
its always been my gut feeling that many of newer "morphs" are different subspecies of leopard geckos, but of course without scientific evidence/proof i have nothing but my own personal opinions =)

i think my idea of subspecies started when i obtained my first "pure ray hine" line hypos and several breeders, including myself, noticed they were structurally different- the feet/scalation were also abnormal to the "normal leopard geckos" in the states which have been established since the 70's. whether they are a different locality, or a different subspecies is still in question. other examples are "giant" leopard geckos, the wild subspecies- Eublepharis fuscus which is recorded in literature, to have a snout to vent length of 10 inches.

one great example of TSD variation i can think of, is in the Rhacodactylus family, since i also keep them. different breeders have reported varying sex ratio results on both fluctuating and constant incubation temperatures. these results could be affected by altitude, humidity, faulty equipment, etc who knows? i believe more research/work needs to be done, especially by breeders/hobbyists/researchers working together to figure these things out! the future sure is exciting, i can't wait to uncover and unlock more mysteries of nature

jon
 
SFgeckos said:
very VERY interesting!?
its always been my gut feeling that many of newer "morphs" are different subspecies of leopard geckos, but of course without scientific evidence/proof i have nothing but my own personal opinions =)
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I think we're all pretty much in the same boat there. It is really obvious that the overall structure of the mack snows are far different looking in stature to the say, ray Hine's line. Some macks I've seen look almost pig nosed so to speak. Larger nostrills was the first thing I noticed.
 
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I dont think they are a subspecies, I think they are just weird..lol The only way to see if there is a aubspecies here is to get the DNA tested and thats not a cheap deal. You would have to test the original "normal" morph with the current codoms or which ever morph interested in. I have seen in my projects with mack that TSD isnt working too well.
 
By looking at the different lines there are definately some differences as mentioned above. I am a believer when it comes to it being said that the captive Leo populations are very mixed. It could be something as simple as location though, who knows. Id say this TSD thing points that being very possible.

Each location they came from could be what is responsible us having so many mutations, but of course there probably wasnt much location data ever offered. They do have a VERY wide range in the wild, Ide think they werent all the same.

Isnt a 'subspecies', just what happens naturally from adapting to different locations? So each country could have its own differences, but originally they came from/and actually are the same species. Thats how I understand it at least. I dont know sometimes, just thinking out loud.
 
I don't know about Macks being a subspecies.... Co-dom genetics would not constitute "subspecies" status.... What does constitute subspecies status is locality, pattern and, size, differences in "wild type" dominant genetics within its own species.....

It is pretty clear that Macks are infact co-dominant... Also TDS is pretty much the same across the board..... The majority of reptiles who's sex it determined by temperature is, lower temps=female, higher temps=male..... That goes for geckos all the way to monitor lizards....

And even if Macks were a "subspecies", that would not be enough of a difference to cause a drastic biological alternative such as the complete reversal of TDS.... Reason being is that it would still be the same species with small differences usually brought on by the surrounding environment such as the above mentioned....

Kelli, what I think you are looking at might just be the luck of the draw.... The male/female gecko lottery.... Especially being that no one else has come forward with this.... One would think that someone like Alex Hue or Mack himself would have disclosed important info like that....
 
Gregg M said:
I don't know about Macks being a subspecies.... Co-dom genetics would not constitute "subspecies" status....
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"correct"
What does constitute subspecies status is locality, pattern and, size, differences in "wild type" dominant genetics within its own species.....
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also correct as well as a slightly different genetic make up of the species compared.

And even if Macks were a "subspecies", that would not be enough of a difference to cause a drastic biological alternative such as the complete reversal of TDS.... Reason being is that it would still be the same species with small differences usually brought on by the surrounding environment such as the above mentioned....
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
The Mack's appear to be just that as far as the overall appearance. Don't you think? It is definitely unique. A genetics test would be darn expensive but we could pull it off as a community.
 
I dunno about luck of the draw because I had the same problem. Almost all of my other geckos turned out female from the same temperatures. Almost none of the Mack eggs did (including the normals and pastels). Then Kelli told me the same happened to her, I have to think that something is up with the TSD of this line especially since she is saying it happened a second time.

For some reason people say that AFTs are TSD at the same temps as Leopards. However that is not the case, 90 degreees beleive it or not is a mostly female producing temp for Fat Tails. Go figure... Reptiles are so weird! :ack2:
 
groovygeckos said:
Well you and I have spoke about this off of the forum. But yes I had alot of males come from 'female' temps last year. I did not notice any females coming from the higher temps though.:
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So the same thing did not happen to you.... :raspberry

Ian S. said:
The Mack's appear to be just that as far as the overall appearance. Don't you think?
Click to expand...

You are right Ian, They could be a subspecies but the codom genetics would not make them a subspecies.... Thats how I should have said it.... And like I said, being a subspecies would not change it that drasticly...
 
Oh well I mean as far as males from lower temps. Just because I didnt notice females come from the male inc., doesnt mean it didnt happen. :hehe: Im not the greatest on keeping those type of records. Its much easier just to sex the gecko when it is large enough. LOL
 
groovygeckos said:
Well you and I have spoke about this off of the forum. But yes I had alot of males come from 'female' temps last year. I did not notice any females coming from the higher temps though.

I think it would have to do with subspecies or something, but just a guess. Im convinced there is something different about them. The Macks all seem to make a distinct "chirp" (sound), that I have not heard from the others. Even the first generation outcrossed "half breeds".

To quote someone else "maybe Mack Snows are aliens" LOL :alien:
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
TRU DAT!
 
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