Mack snows.....

[Golden Gate Geckos]

ditto

There are tons of people I've met in the industry that I'd give the shirt of my back to assist even though they are direct competitors. I also realize that it can be a mean industry and you adjust your tactics to survive against those competitors that play the game that way.

You are right on... and this can be observed at trade shows. For example, I might be at a show where lets say... Steve & Debra from Geckos, Etc., and Julie Bergman from Gecko Ranch, and others, are in direct competition. But... we can have breakfast together, and even send customers to each other's booths if we don't have what they are looking for!

It's about respect and admiration. I appreciate, admire, respect, and even care personally about my competitors who share similar ethics and attitudes with me. Heck, we even buy each other's geckos... LOL! I've even had conversations with other breeders to discuss what a 'fair' price for a particular morph would be! I am genuinely happy for those 'competitors' when they are successful.

Competition does NOT have to be about undermining and underselling each other at all... there is always room in this (sometimes savage) industry for all of us. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Those of us who do what we do because we truly love our animals and find joy in what we do will always prevail over a price war anytime.

 

[Wilomn]

Business is business and hobbies are hobbies. When the two mix only a good businessman will make money from his hobby.

There is nothing wrong with this.

Some of you guys are confusing what you do, which is a hobby, with what some others do which is make a living at your hobby. Hobbiests seem to have, often times, issues with businessmen.

It's like Chop Saki flicks. Different schools doing the same thing but one has a big ol' chip on it's shoulder because the "new" school does not only do things differently but in many ways better. I am not referring to keeping but marketing. The two are very different.

Dan and Wendy have GREAT animals and will be successful in their business as well. Dan understands what it takes to make his business successful in ways that most purely hobbiests will never even realize exist.

Now, just because there are two different schools does NOT mean you all cannot go to the same dances and drink the same punch and drool over the same new morphs.

When you start choosing up teams and picking your weapons THEN you've gone a bit too far. Of course Dan and Wendy are good guys.

If you are talking about some of the scum out there, for instance some of those guys in Fla. like sal and mitch and their ilk, THEN it is fine to despise them and distance yourselves from them, they only make EVERYONE look bad.

Business is business and should not be held to the same standards that a purely hobbiest would normally adhere to.

 

[shrap]

You are right on... and this can be observed at trade shows. For example, I might be at a show where lets say... Steve & Debra from Geckos, Etc., and Julie Bergman from Gecko Ranch, and others, are in direct competition. But... we can have breakfast together, and even send customers to each other's booths if we don't have what they are looking for!

It's about respect and admiration. I appreciate, admire, respect, and even care personally about my competitors who share similar ethics and attitudes with me. Heck, we even buy each other's geckos... LOL! I've even had conversations with other breeders to discuss what a 'fair' price for a particular morph would be! I am genuinely happy for those 'competitors' when they are successful.

Competition does NOT have to be about undermining and underselling each other at all... there is always room in this (sometimes savage) industry for all of us. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Those of us who do what we do because we truly love our animals and find joy in what we do will always prevail over a price war anytime.

**Applause** **Standing Ovation**

Excellent post, Marcia!!!! I could not agree more!!!!

 

[dwedeking]

Steve & Debra from Geckos, Etc.,

Oh Debra definitely.... Steve I'd have to think about

 

[SteveGeckosEtc]

LOL, well thanks Daniel!

Wes is absolutely right. Daniel has a great business mind, he actually thinks about stuff like "Who is the target audience for my products?" "What is the best way to market to them?" When was the last time your typical hobbyist thought on those terms? But, Daniel and Wendy's business plan does not involve cutting corners on providing the proper care for their animals. After all, customers will not return if they receive bad animals! Daniel and Wendy definitely know that your reputation is your #1 asset in this business, and they work hard to maintain it. Anyone who has observed the reptile industry for a little while has noticed breeders and reptile stores come and go fairly quickly. A good business mind is vital to compete and stay alive, especially when trying to compete and make money in reptile supplies. Do you know the markup on most reptile products? Minuscule! Daniel and Wendy have lots of faithful and happy customers, and that will allow them to survive in this business long term.

Steve Sykes

 

[KelliH]

I want to clarify something. I did not and do not mean any ill will towards Dan at Scales. Scales has a great reputation and I would not hesitate to buy if he ever had anything I wanted. He does things differently than I do, and that's cool. BUT..I have been and will continue to be successful in my gecko business, and will do so without dumping prices or flooding the market. If that is what it takes for me to stay in business than I would rather not have a business. Period. I just refuse to be that cut throat and hard nosed, it is not in my nature and never will be. However, that does not mean I cannot have a successful and thriving business, trust me.

 

[Hues1]

There are alot of issues that need to be covered...in no order of importance whatsoever...

I think all the buyers from Alex will agree with the terms Alex laid out but whats there to say about the folks which purchase straight from John Mack before Alex was even selling?

Simple answer.....John started to "advertise" the Mack snows during fall 2004, Albey purchased a total of 5-6 animals, Steve purchased one animal...and I purchased 15 animals ( basically everything that John had left available for 2004). Both Albey and Steve purchased their animals about 2-3 months prior to me. So...the whole theory of "alot of breeders" prior to me purchasing/selling them is out the door. I'm the only guy besides what I share with John and a few select others knows EXACTLY whats out there and whos got them....believe me, it aint even close to what the albinos were when they were released...not even a quarter of that number.

Do you realize this is organized price fixing? In the US this is illegal. It also goes against the basics of a capitalist economic system (used to be the backbone to American dreams) allowing for free competition.

So, are we saying forms of price fixing equals "good ethics" or what? It never occurred to me that this might be a form of price fixing. I need to ponder on this topic a little more. . . .
I know they broke up monopolies, because they set prices without the benefite of the free market (Ma Bell). Everybody crabs at Bill Gates because he either eats his competition or bad mouths it to death - in the mean time, the majority of people get stuck with a sub-standard piece of software (except for us Apple users).
What's the difference? Alex works hard to keep the price up. He refuses some people the sales because he doesn't like their attitude - and if they get a hold of one - he and his counterparts successfully sink a reputation - and keep it under the water, whenever it tries to surface.
I'm not trying to cause problems. I'm just wondering how ethical it is to try and artificially maintain prices by what looks like price fixing? I suppose I had better go back through and try to pick up what I missed on this topic.

And this isnt directed at anyone in particular.....MONTE, one day you're supportive the next you're bagging on people albeit in a less formal fashion with insinuations versus accusations. However else should the above quote from you read? I would really like to know. But anyways to answer you......show me one person I've sold a Mack snow too...if I've ever said one of the terms of sale/purchase was they absolutely had to sell Mack snows/Supers for what I wanted them too. The only conversations pertaining to prices between myself and purchasers were based on how long/when the values of Mack snows would come down or how long they would stay level and last but not least...how the values would carry over to double het. animals. So...unless I made a conscious effort to ensure that every single person would have to agree on my "dictated" selling prices and conform to that as one of the "rules" as a Mack owner....I dont see how price fixing is a issue. As for reputations and and trying to sink them...here's a doozy...does anyone think I would've sold a Mack snow to lubinsky if I KNEW he had a PRIOR arrangement with poe concerning a breeding loan ??? So the guy had a prior arrangement, didnt tell me about it knowing that a breeding loan would've been out of the question based on where and how I'd like to see this project take shape, bred the Mack male to a few females right after receiving him, turned around and sold it, shipped it within 4 days of receiving...and I'm sinking their reputations? or better yet...my ethics and morals are being questioned?

I paid premium for the geckos I received from John Mack...I quarantined and raised those geckos for over 60 days prior to selecting which ones I would keep and which ones I would sell. I acquired all of my Macks around the 1st./2nd. week of October and didnt sell a single one until the last week in December/and shipping sometime in early January 05. I didnt even start breeding my own until Mid January/Early February. I sold the animals anywhere from what I paid for them up to $250.00 more due to the fact I housed, fed, and raised them for 2 months. I sold those animals the very same way I purchased them based on age/sex/and weight. So does anyone think that it was ethically or morally bad bad bad of me to sell them as such? What should I have done...let them all go for what I paid or kept them all and massed produced the crap out of them in order to sell off the babies until my pockets were lined with gold and diamonds?

Let me try to shed some "light"...the reasoning for selectively selling the Mack snows was because I personally wanted to see the Mack snows worked with in a moral and ethical fashion. I wanted breeders that were going to put in the sweat, blood, and tears to see this Morph not get wasted as we've all seen in many others. The mass producing, undercutting, "breed" only for profit and who cares about the animals mentality that many people out there have...this all stemmed from me loosing over 30K in 1998 to a albino leo "breeder" who cared nothing about the animals but only about how much $$$ he was going to put into his pocket even if the animals he was selling were nothing more than "make believe hets". ...I didnt want to be that guy! I wanted to be the guy whom anyone I sold a Mack snow to could depend on with questions/support/and opinions. Part of selectively selling is to be able to sell to people whom you can make these connections personally and professionally with...eg. honest, ethical, and morally sound breeders. So if they were refused...it wasnt because they didnt want to play by my rules...it was because I didnt perceive them as being ethical, morally sound, or honest.
Heck...I even sold Macks to people who arent what the majority would consider "big guys" in the business...but you know what, they presented themselfs HONESTLY.

Now as for protecting the market value or others breeders investments...the one thing for sure and the promise everyone got from me concerning prices was I WAS NOT GOING TO BE THE FIRST TO BRING THEM DOWN. I did this in order to ensure other breeders would have an opportunity to recoup on their purchases. If I was a morally or ethically bad bad bad person...I wouldnt have said poo poo...instead I would've amassed the collection and dumped everything off at premium and stood back to watch everyone else crumble. Heck...I've got animals now that are breedable that I wont sell because thats another person whom the original purchasers would have to compete with. Instead I offer younger non breedable(smaller age and weight) Mack snows so that new breeders arent capable of gaining ground on the original purchasers....show me a ethically or morally bad bad bad breeder thats willing to take "money out of his own pocket" by not selling more valuable animals in order to ensure that everyone else has had the opportunity to recoup.

As for the original reasoning for this thread....

Prices, prices, prices.....here are my thoughts. There are only a few people currently working the Mack snows, between all of them...they will not produce even a 1/4 of what was produced in terms of albinos in the first year. And even if they do (hypothetically) they are just producing more "hets". Keep in mind that you're not breeding a albino to albino or breeding a super snow to a super snow...you're breeding het x het with the Mack snows. The ultimate goal is to produce the Super Snow which will become available late this year or early next year, and this is done by holding back a good amount of Mack snows this year...so, with that said..not every single baby from a Mack snow will be a snow. The people who are producing the Snows now will need another 6 months plus before they can start their super snow production...then you have egging and incubation...so realistically...dont expect to see any Supers in good numbers til mid 2006. Out of those supers that will be produced...how many will actually hit the market??? Not many...because of all the combo traits that can be had with the snows and supers. You're talking another year maybe 2 on top of producing Mack snows/and then the supers before those combo trait animals start becoming available. This isnt a get fast/make morphs quick process. It takes time and the right animals/combinations to make it all work. Everyone is essentially starting from the ground up. I've said it in the past and I'll say it again...with the Mack Snows/Supers...its anyones game at this point in time. ANYONE BIG OR SMALL can get in and be the first to make those combo traits.

 

[KelliH]

Alex, you and I never did business before I bought my Mack Snow from you.. I think we had exchanged a couple of emails, that is it. I must say that I have so much respect for what you did with the Macks..and no, I am NOT kissing Alex's ass here, I am being completely honest. Kudos to you bud. I know you are only wanting to see the most come out of this morph, which I have come to discover is REALLY exciting to work with. I have not been this excited about a leopard gecko morph since I got into the blizzards many years ago. I admit I was sceptical at first but once I hatched my first snow I got excited about leos all over again. This is the reason I love working with leopard geckos: you never know what is going to hatch out of that egg!

 

[Hues1]

Thank you Kelli. I truly appreciate it and everyone else whom have been very supportive.

To be honest, I was on my way out of leopard geckos because of everything that I've seen go wrong with "leopard gecko people" and this whole Mack Snow "drama" is the perfect example. I didnt want this morph to end up like so many of the other leopard gecko morphs....greed, money, and two faced back stabbing.

But the Mack snows and only the Mack snows is what did it for me too. If it wasnt for the Mack snows...my hands would be completely wiped clean of the leopard gecko world.

And you're talking about a guy who has kept leopard geckos for over 12 years now...hell some of my breeding stock even originated from Stephen Hammack before Kelli came along!

How do they say it....those were the good ole days

 

[Monte]

Alex, I'm not bagging on you, although I do reserve the right to change my opinion on a matter. This whole deal on price fixing was an interesting subject, and since it surrounded YOUR project, I wanted to explore it further.

Hey, you put yourself in the line of fire with your choice. In addition, if I'm honest, I might have put a little more "bile" in it, after I read some unwarranted comments about Dan Lubkinky. That was probably the reason the post had more crabbiness in it than intended. Sorry about that.

Nevertheless, I was still interested and continued to be interested in this topic. Since you are the subject of the case study, it's going to get tough on both sides. But I have learned a lot on a number of ethical issues related to the herp field - and I've also learned a lot about the personalities involved. I need to do some processing/chewing on this subject.

In the mean time, Alex, again I am sorry that my post had more "bile" in it than intended.

 

[dwedeking]

I just refuse to be that cut throat and hard nosed

Kelli, Don't start selling supplies then, 'cause there's sharks in those waters There are a million ways to run a business SUCCESSFULLY. And successfully doesn't always mean $$ either. So having a differing opinion is not a bad thing.

Alex, thanks for the clarification on you position and on what is really going on.

This has been a great discussion that should at least give insight into the way people look at their business... and how others can view your actions. When doing some of the more aggressive tactics you have to remember how customers will perceive them, and many times your competitors are potential customers as well in this business.

 

[KelliH]

Thanks Daniel, I really appreciate your post. And yes, I am happy to run my business the way I do. I do pretty good that way too.

Man, there is no way I could sell supplies, I am swamped year round with my geckos! It seems in my case it is more rewarding both financially and otherwise to focus on the animals.

I agree that this has been a great discussion.

 

[groovygeckos]

conflicting statements

The only conversations pertaining to prices between myself and purchasers were based on how long/when the values of Mack snows would come down or how long they would stay level and last but not least...how the values would carry over to double het. animals.

OK , i was offered a pair of Snows by you Alex , the only "conversation" w/ me was price and payment option , AFTER you helped me figure out i wanted the pair as opposed to my original inquiry about just a female having taken your own good advice decided against just a female and then asked about ,just a male.
we had come to an agreement upon a pair , a 5-6 mo old male and an "adult" female Snow , after my confusion w/ the different prices for different sizes was out of the way .
i call BS ,and will spare you , posting our e-mail . there was no talk of where you wanted to see this thing go .
i told you very honestly my intentions at the time were to make Giant Snows het Albino and that i was working on a very small scale as more of a hobby than anything until this 'business opportunity' came along and that would make me work on a slightly larger scale ONLY .

in a very short time became dedicated to this amazing new project and all of its potential , having THOUGHT a 'DEAL' was made , WE started investing in a few select SHTCTB , Tremper Giant, and BOLD-stripe females to breed to the male besides the Snow female . in your words 'i was not going to let them slip through my hands ' (or however it goes) and allready had taken a loan , and started 'investing' .

so my 'dishonesty' and talk about 'overproducing' 'underselling' is 'out the window ' .

the reasoning for selectively selling the Mack snows was because I personally wanted to see the Mack snows worked with in a moral and ethical fashion. I wanted breeders that were going to put in the sweat, blood, and tears to see this Morph not get wasted as we've all seen in many others. The mass producing, undercutting, "breed" only for profit and who cares about the animals mentality that many people out there have.

we have only best interest of the morph and our fellow breeders
this is not only my business but also my mothers , i would not put her (or myself) in jeopardy , nor have my intentions been to inflict any harm to the market , or to anyone that thrives from this business . i would like to be able to attend or vend a show to make contacts/sell etc . you think i would like ' herp-bully' friends of the cartel causing problems in public places etc ? (which seems to be happening) get that through that thick head of yours please ?
how can you dictate how long prices would stay level unless there is some form of control over those prices set in place ?

So the guy had a prior arrangement, didnt tell me about it knowing that a breeding loan would've been out of the question based on where and how I'd like to see this project take shape, bred the Mack male to a few females right after receiving him, turned around and sold it, shipped it within 4 days of receiving...and I'm sinking their reputations? or better yet...my ethics and morals are being questioned?

Alex for you to give people this info up front about the selection would have been fine by me , same goes for when Dan made the deal with you , but you were NOT HONEST about it .
truthfully it goes along way , and if i had known why you changed your mind , other than telling me 'i will not sell to you for you can sell "for less" " because it said that in my signature here at the the time , i would not have been half as frustrated/insulted/angered by allready having taken out a loan and buying females .
i was thrilled and took great pride in having the chance to be part of the project early on . please tell me ANYONE what would this have done to you ?
IF you had not snubbed my phone calls after telling me to call to place the order before the weekend as you were 'going out of town' , i would not have been soooo excited and impatient with your not answering , and would not have been as eager to get you on the phone . this was a thursday or friday night after you told me this , i was ready to receive them the following week like we planned . so yes i may have called quite a few times , having been told you were leaving for the week and WOULD have shipped when you returned . i appologize for this (my excitement )!
so , i never got an answer that day and guessed you were ' out of town ' , i contacted Jodi and was given the same offer , and to call YOU to place the order . thinking Jodi must have contacted you to arrange this , and being confused why you were not answering me i tried again and again . just so you know , yes i went and tried a different route (Jodi) to buy the Snows because i felt you avoided my phone call . sorry, just how you made me feel .
just like the corvette or ferrari , the dealer right down the street is just as good as any , if they dont have what you are looking for at the time .

AND HERE IS MY FAVORITE ONE

ANYONE BIG OR SMALL can get in and be the first to make those combo traits.

the same salespitch on your website . now why would i or anyone view this project as something that is not openly available to all ? you do not explain this on your website or during someones inquiry .

bred the Mack male to a few females right after receiving him, turned around and sold it, shipped it within 4 days of receiving...and I'm sinking their reputations? or better yet...my ethics and morals are being questioned?

LOL you wanna talk ethics/morals ? one word comes to mind ! >SNAKEBROKER <
is that what you are ? im not sure ....
below from your website , speaking about IMPORTED BALLS all the way from Africa , that your ethics concerning reptiles should be questioned ! huh buddy ?

>"me...I will re-hydrate them...offer 2 meals and then send them onto you within 2 weeks of arrival here or we can have them shipped within a few days of arrival after they've had a chance to re-hydrate and are offered at least 1 meal. " < end quote from website
within a few days of arrival ? IMPORTED ANIMALS NO DOUBT ! what happens if a shippment comes in 100% DEAD ? what do you do Alex ? do you call it quits , and not order again ? LOL

where do you keep those animals ? are they 100% "clean" ? do you know that for sure ? ide say no but thats just my opinion on imports!

im sure the Leopard Gecko community as a whole doesnt see the other side ! but there it is plain as day ! and now he`s Mr. Breeder ethics when it comes to Leos ? gimme a break .

 

[robin d.]

before rich comes on here and closes this down because he will he has warned us all.... dan,
many people broker snakes... there are many BAD broker and a few GOOD onees, you just do not get it. its alex's business, i mean litterally he makes a living off selling reptiles. hey a couple days or a couple of weeks is ALOT more than ALOT of poeple do... try the guys that buy those balls right off the port of entry.. and then directly ship them out to petstroes because that is usually how it goes. when buying imports in groups lets say over 100 those suppliers do not gaurentee you anything just 100 balls. not hydrated not fed not wormed no live arrival because thats what 8 bucks each gets you. its the second hand good buyers that put the effort into them.
oh and a snake broker is someone who has (sometimes they are not even at the brokers facility, they are with the owner) animals that belongs to someone else and agrees to sell them for a "consignment fee".... buying ch baby balls from ghana he is just buying some lots and investing his time and money into them i am sure he has a gaurentee and will make good.


anywho that my quick statement i knew as son as i saw the title what this would end up like... i tried to stay on topic see above but this really needs to be taken to the BOI or HELL because i personally am tired of seeing it.....

webslave needs to come down here and close this thread as he did the others or inforce his warning... whatever

 

[Wilomn]

lubinski I offered this advise to sal tornambe just the other day and I think it fits for you too.

It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Quit your whining. No matter what tests you take you are still suspected of having lied and NOW you're trying to drag Alex down by comparing IMPORTED ball pythons to the Macks? Does the word dumbass have any special signifigance to you? If not it should.

 

[groovygeckos]

not only that , but a personal attack against myself and Dan Lubinsky by yourself and Chris Johnson (who in no way was involved in your deal w/ Dan L.) on how -

-we, planned to double ship a gecko etc. - making it look like we have done something unethical in that respect (to hurt reputations) . it was a "need to" situation for Dan as he explained to you .
but you two just have to use less than fair methods against "the little guys" that could hardly even keep up w/ the 'group' in production .

-i,planned to overproduce this morph

-i,planned to dump prices

Chris Johnson bringing a personal e-mail about my concern for a diagnosis of ONE animal in my collection w/ amebiasis into public conversation on THIS forum .

- was blown up into accusations of 'poor husbandry' , 'not properly treating the animal' , ' being a collection wide infection in either of our colonies '

ALL TO TRY TO HARM OUR REPUTATIONS AND SMALL BUSINESSES


this just needs to be here since supposedly coming from Alex ,

I ensued the "MACK SNOW DRAMA " when it was himself and counterparts .

Thank You for reading everyone , have a blessed day .

 

[groovygeckos]

noone lied but these two jokers (and the LAMBS took their word go figure)

 

[groovygeckos]

wes , im am only comparing the BP "few day" turnaround to these two insinuating the Mack was "unethically planned to be shipped twice in just 5 days , etc. "

i was not about to stand for these type of statements about my ethics and morals made to the Leopard Gecko community(in this section so this does belong here ) and i will NOT now .

 

[Wilomn]

lubinski I offered this advise to sal tornambe just the other day and I think it fits for you too.

It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Quit your whining. No matter what tests you take you are still suspected of having lied and NOW you're trying to drag Alex down by comparing IMPORTED ball pythons to the Macks? Does the word dumbass have any special signifigance to you? If not it should.

I will leave the above because it has already been read by a few.

I will ask that it be disregaurded as I was, ONCE AGAIN, not getting someone's name right. I was thinking that DAN LUBINSKI had written the post I was responding to but it was dan poe.

Sorry Lubinski.

 

[leaftail]

Once again a thread about Mack snows has been dragged off-topic. Sorry Gregg!! You tried, you really did, to start a reasonable discussion about a cool new leo morph... I was hoping to actually discuss that with everyone too.