• Responding to email notices you receive.
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    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

MARK MILLER IS A THIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DaveyFig said:
I think you are right about Mark stealing snakes from you.
I think you are wrong about him being protected. Clay has a different kind of site. Heck, the rest of Fauna is different from the BOI. BOI type threads aren't something that Clay desires to have on the site he runs, whether they are about his friends or not. Clay directed people wishing to engage in that type of thread to this one. I think the thread was locked at a good time. It gave people a chance to make some points, but didn't allow it to get carried away. Had it gone much further, I think that posts would have to be deleted to keep the thread redtailboas.com friendly. Had posts been deleted, Clay would have been accused of playing favorites, even if the deleting was necessary. He was between a rock and a hard place, and he managed to get out of it while keeping the information there.
I think he did the right thing.
Click to expand...

I think you are right Dave. I have been a part of Clay's site now for a while and I don't see many BOI type threads there at all. I feel he doesn't want his site to become to BOI, but at the same time he wants people the opportunity to warn others. By allowing the post to happen and allowing some people to communicate on it, gets the point out. By locking it out, he stops it from becoming the BOI, but he still allows others to see what was going on.
 
Most other exotic animal focus web sites do not allow arguments. They are not there for this type of controversy and the ones I am on will suggest the BOI as the proper forum for such discussions.
It is not that they support the Bad Guy who also happens to be a member it is that they do not want hard feelings generated causing division among their membership.
 
I do not post here often but I do try to read the BOI from time to time. I have been around a long time now as far as a community forum goes, and over the years there have been topics that really got out of hand that were obviously better suited for this forum. I even had a small BOI type forum for a few months and that did not work at all.. I then decided that the general community we had created was not suited for that. Long ago the TOS and forum membership agreement actually was modified to say that my site would not be for BOI type topics. I support Fauna, am a registered "Good Guy" with fauna, so I intended for my members to carry those type issues here.

However, I also want members to have the ability to state their opinions and to know what is going on in general. So I do get caught between a rock and a hard place at times. I try to let folks say their piece and try to close it before it gets out of hand and then direct them here. That may be right or that may be wrong. This does not make me a supporter of the topic starter or the topic participants. I can only do what I feel is best.

I would like to add here that I never delete threads or posts. No moderator can physically delete any post. We (admins and moderators) do have the ability to move threads to our staff "storage" forums, but they are never deleted. Even SPAM/Troll topics are moved to storage and not deleted.

Also I have never approved of or supported any action that Mark has made with customers that were owed money or animals. I do not pretend to know all the circumstances but I hope he can work them all out.

I just hope that all parties, whether they know me or not, understand my position.

Thanks for listening
 
Clay, I have been away from forums for some time now, and have just recently started posting again. I have to say that your forum is one of the best run sites out there. You're doing a great job, and you act very professionally in situations like this. Well done.
 
I know this is late in the game, but I don't agree with Corey's stance at all, and I think a judge would quickly favor Ray's side.

It was wrong for Mark to pair Ray's two animals with out his consent, and then to keep the animals after (Ray claims) they both came to an agreement to send them all back to him.

That is theft! I don't care how you put it, he STOLE those animals. He put a couple of animals together that weren't his to begin with, then he went so far as to keep the babies he thought he was entitled to. He did not consult Ray in the breeding, and on Ray's word, they never came to any agreement that Mark was allowed to keep any of those animals he kept.

I would be livid if I had to hear that on the phone.
"Oh hey, I put your animals together, btw, I'm keeping half for the trouble."

Umm... excuse me?! Who are you, Tony Soprana? :eek:

In my opinion (and having never bred boas or plan to) Mark got something for nothing. Yes, I think it would have been fair for Ray to pay him something in the end just as a kind guesture, but Mark didn't give him a chance to do that. He took them when in good faith he should have returned them to the owner. Hell, he could have just not said anything to Ray and kept the whole litter.

Mark took the animals that weren't his, that come from animals that weren't his to begin with or pair up and were never agreed upon by the owner to be paired.

Sorry, this circumstance just ticked me off. Sorry about the trouble Ray.
 
Oh, to clarify, when I say he got something for nothing...

I'm pretty sure in breeder loans, each party puts down at least HALF of the equation to both equally split the benefits. I think "putting two animals together" is not anywhere near half. So in a sense, Mark got something for nothing.
 
redtailboas said:
I do not post here often but I do try to read the BOI from time to time. I have been around a long time now as far as a community forum goes, and over the years there have been topics that really got out of hand that were obviously better suited for this forum. I even had a small BOI type forum for a few months and that did not work at all.. I then decided that the general community we had created was not suited for that. Long ago the TOS and forum membership agreement actually was modified to say that my site would not be for BOI type topics. I support Fauna, am a registered "Good Guy" with fauna, so I intended for my members to carry those type issues here.

However, I also want members to have the ability to state their opinions and to know what is going on in general. So I do get caught between a rock and a hard place at times. I try to let folks say their piece and try to close it before it gets out of hand and then direct them here. That may be right or that may be wrong. This does not make me a supporter of the topic starter or the topic participants. I can only do what I feel is best.

I would like to add here that I never delete threads or posts. No moderator can physically delete any post. We (admins and moderators) do have the ability to move threads to our staff "storage" forums, but they are never deleted. Even SPAM/Troll topics are moved to storage and not deleted.

Also I have never approved of or supported any action that Mark has made with customers that were owed money or animals. I do not pretend to know all the circumstances but I hope he can work them all out.

I just hope that all parties, whether they know me or not, understand my position.

Thanks for listening
Click to expand...
I have to chime in here .
Clay runs one of the best if not the best forum, reptile or other in my opinion . Clay makes sure the forum community is a friendly place to visit. Never allowing any posts to go into that uncomfortable name calling or finger pointing arena. This is what makes that forum a place I like to visit often, along with great information offered there. I hope the wonderful Redtailboas forum will no longer be dragged into this or similar situations. There is no "guilt by association" here . Please keep this in mind when making further posts. People are understandably upset. Please think before you speak though, some things can never be taken back. Clay thanks for all your hard work and contributions to this Hobby. Please continue down this road. I know I appreciate what you provide for all of us .
Thanks Clay !
 
I understand why Clay would lock the thread.People don't go on RTB to read that stuff. The only thing I am wondering is why Jeff Ronne's name always comes up. Is he really supporting Mark? I know he posted that Mark did it to himself,but is he helping him out?
 
HopingForBabies said:
I understand why Clay would lock the thread.People don't go on RTB to read that stuff. The only thing I am wondering is why Jeff Ronne's name always comes up. Is he really supporting Mark? I know he posted that Mark did it to himself,but is he helping him out?
Click to expand...
I do not know the answer to this question. Although I imagine if Jeff Ronne did decide to help Mark in some finacial way that would be Jeff Ronnes business not mine and entirely unrelated to any of this.
I have another question myself. As far as I can tell concerning this time period from aprox., oct 2007 until present I only can find three people who have an issue with Mark. Two guys from Canada Todd peddle & someone else then the Bueno Bros. Is there any other people have I searched improperly? I'd really like to know the answer to this?
Thanks to any answers.
 
Tony Pharosx aka Antoine Searg (Canada) had problems with him, William Shopik (Canada) had problems with him, Todd Peddle (Canada) had problems with him, John Martino (NY) had problems with him, Ray Bueno & his brother (Colorado) had problems with him. Any bets that he has cheated many others who have never posted on the BOI?

The bottom line is how many bad/problem deals does a guy have to be responsible for before he is a bad guy?
Answer: 1 slow to settle or settled under pressure deal makes you questionable, 1 unresolved deal makes you a bad guy, more than that you are scum that only friends of questionable character will defend.

Remember that “friends of questionable character” does not apply to people playing Devils Advocate to present an alternate view of the situation.
 
Thanks for the answer. So there are actually three people from Canada and Bueno Bros. Then an earlier bad incident with John Martino. Thanks for the answer I appreciate it . I personally wanted to be clear about how many formal complaints have been logged. Mark Continuing to not post here says alot to me as well. I for one would want to place my side of the story in print.
 
Few questions:

1.) Why didn't you take all of your animals (including the female snow) home with you when you drove out there to pick up the babies? Not a pertinent part of this deal, but I was curious as to why you wouldn't just take her home when you knew she was going to come back eventually.

2.) I don't do boa's, and I understand that different morphs can get expensive. Just so everyone here (including non-boa people) know the extent that you are out could you run the prices of the babies that you hoped to produce (according to contract) as well as what was actually produced. I agree that it is a principle thing, but knowing the amount of financial damage you took will help those not in the boa market (such as a judge or prosecutor ;) )

3.) What do you believe he is rightfully entitled to? Would it be purely monetary compensation, or would you have been willing to give him a baby? Also, why were you against him wanting the deformed snake? I'm assuming he couldn't sell it for top price due to this deformity, and if he were to use it for breeding he would need to raise it and then deal with a deflated market in a year or two. I am NOT justifying him, nor am I trying to put any blame at all on you. Like I mentioned earlier I do not follow the market and I do not know the value of these snakes.
 
Answers

droogievesch said:
Few questions:

1.) Why didn't you take all of your animals (including the female snow) home with you when you drove out there to pick up the babies? Not a pertinent part of this deal, but I was curious as to why you wouldn't just take her home when you knew she was going to come back eventually.

2.) I don't do boa's, and I understand that different morphs can get expensive. Just so everyone here (including non-boa people) know the extent that you are out could you run the prices of the babies that you hoped to produce (according to contract) as well as what was actually produced. I agree that it is a principle thing, but knowing the amount of financial damage you took will help those not in the boa market (such as a judge or prosecutor ;) )

3.) What do you believe he is rightfully entitled to? Would it be purely monetary compensation, or would you have been willing to give him a baby? Also, why were you against him wanting the deformed snake? I'm assuming he couldn't sell it for top price due to this deformity, and if he were to use it for breeding he would need to raise it and then deal with a deflated market in a year or two. I am NOT justifying him, nor am I trying to put any blame at all on you. Like I mentioned earlier I do not follow the market and I do not know the value of these snakes.
Click to expand...

When we picked up the babies in Kansas we did not take our snow female due to he being gravid. We did not want to risk her or the babies inside her.

As far as the value of the animals goes. I dont have the first clue what an albino motley het anery would be worth. The only reason I posted the value of the motley het snow is that is what Mark told me he thought they were worth.

As far as what we were going to give Mark. We were going to give him a baby or two. However we had not ever had a chance to look at the litter. There was a slight chance that we would have given him the kinked male motley but we wanted to see OUR babies first before making that decision.

Unfortunately we were never given the chance to do this. Mark stole what he thinks he is owed. I dont know about anyone else her but, putting two snakes together for six months does NOT entitle me or anyone to $16000 - $20000 for the effort.
 
I think it's obvious who is the "bad guy" in this situation. I dont think anyone but Mark should be answering questions.
I keep hearing that now that he has some babies to sell maybe he'll straighten thing out, but who in there right mind would send this guy money?
I know I wouldn't.....
 
There are people who will still deal with him, however I don't know that Mark would use the money from sales to make things right. With each deal he has made, he has taken in money he could have then paid off a previous debt. Then all he would have to do is come through with the current dealing, and have a clean slate. Instead, he not only doesn't send anything to the customer from before who is unhappy, but doesn't come through for the new buyer, adding to the list.
There are people who will deal with Mark when he posts babies for rock bottom prices, but at those prices, how many people will he be able to patch things up with?
I guess if he sells the same animals over and over, and never ships them then he could have an endless income, and not have to worry about how cheap they sell for.
 
For what it's worth....

I spoke to Mark on the phone a couple nights ago and told him I thought he needed to come on here and say something since there were 3 threads about him on the first page of the BOI and he said he had nothing to say. He made mention that all of this talk about him here as well as his site being back up has made him very busy selling snakes, and he didn't have time to deal with this BS.

Just wanted to make everyone aware that he does know about these threads but all the commotion has done nothing but make him more money.

He also doesn't think that his coming here would change anyone's opinion of him, so in his words, "Why should I bother?"

Just letting all of you know that I have done my part and have nothing else to say about this as this has nothing to do with me.
 
CLASSIC!!

Well, with all that money he's making, he should have no trouble at all fixing his problems. That's good! Unless of course he is making money selling snakes and then not shipping them, but spending the money.That's not good, that's Mark.
 
:iagree:

I guess we'll see more that 3 of these threads on the first page in the near future, or he'll be able to straighten this all out, one or the other... :rolleyes:
 
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