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Mark Miller (loco-lizards) - Bad Guy !

Mark Miller let’ s sort our your claims a little more clear.

1 - CITIES being redone was your fault as you state in my emails you found minor mistakes and wanted to correct them first like date of birth and so on, that being said you told me you will fix that and re-issue. So because if that I asked is it possible to add other animals not before only after. Since waiting for the paperwork was going to happen anyways why not add more animals. So don’t describe the situation as you want without the facts.

2 – Read my whole thread again Mark Miller, and you will see you did make changes to the agreed contract once a deposit is made you can not change things – end of story. Your method is like buying a house, finalizing it….then because market is hot lets tack on a few more thousand just because the value went up…….wrong Mark Miller doing that would end up in a law suit. But you will find that out in life when you break contracts.

3 – The price was you telling this on the phone and it shows you saying you could sell her for more. I even gave you a second option this past week where I will try and get my own CITIES. I asked if I can would the boa be mine still even it is takes maybe a month or two, your statement was she is well worth $7000 USD and I said but it will be still the same agreement you then said NO, I want her new value……your lucky Mark I could not record you saying that, but my proof shows here you don’t understand doing business and doing anything international.

4 – The Motley thing was not an issue until you told me in these past two weeks, and I do not care about it in that sense I do care when your bragging you just bought it and then I wonder – wait bought a Motley just now and still owes me my money, that ain’t right…..pay my refund first.

5 – I do state I never seen the CITIES in many emails read it again MARK and why did I never get full view copies like I asked, of both the original and the re-written one. And after two attempts at CITIES Mark why is the boa not shipped, why must I wait a year plus and still have no confirmation to it being set up.

6 – Refund is not sent it is sitting if anything in that bank of yours waiting to be processed, then after that it will take up to 24 hours to reach me via wire transfer. This means if you actually did this Mark – refund was started Friday May 27, 2005, almost 2 weeks after the promised date and also 2 weeks of hearing its coming each day….so lots of lies there from you. But you planned that out perfect, you went really late to the bank to make sure they could not complete that transfer. As stated do it early you did it late. As that “quote on quote” teller said to me she will only file it on Tuesday May 31, 2005 as she can do it in the morning after and process it. So this means you gain 4 days with my money and maybe a fifth because I might have to wait 24 hours to receive it. It is not just 24 hours not even 4 days not even 2 weeks it’s a year and more you owed me, because your plan was never to ship this boa, read all my proof over and see you had other intentions. Also as stated in my facts is that teller never did give me a receipt number or any codes showing that refund is coming Mark, I even asked for her ID # all tellers have an ID #, my bank asked me if you need some proof ask Mark Miller to reply with this below list of information and we can call them and verify. Here was the list and Mark you did not come through on anything important needed.

BANK NAME.
BANK ADDRESS.
BANK PHONE NUMBER.
BANK TELLER INDENTIFICATION.
BANK TELLER NAME.
CODES AND RECEIPT NUMBER ON THE WIRE TRANSFER.
TIME THE TRANSACTION WAS MADE BY YOU.

See Mark when I made my deposits on that boa I went early as possible in the day to make sure I sent you a payment each time, I then phoned you and emailed it as well. I even had the codes and receipt numbers and you always received the money same day or in 24 hours. Why you stalled till closed at 3:00 pm Kansas says you were waiting on that big deal to come through for you. You gained four more days and that is four more days you’re stealing from me.

Also you are still crying about paying me more $321.55 USD, Mark there is a currency difference anyone that understand money and international currencies will tell you What I paid in deposits was one value, each days currency goes up and down, it ain’ t interest it is evening the money each day, But I see explaining this for the tenth time still confuses you. I guess I should have paid you in Canadian value only and got that boa for much less. You actually owe me much more Mark, What ever plans you have in selling that boa I should gain that as well, but refunding me my money has convinced you that you don’ t owe me anything extra, but as a contract you owe much more. In each email I stated what you owed me in Canadian no matter what all you had to do was tell the teller “need to make a wire transfer to this account at this amount in Canadian”, being that easy you looked at it and thought well it cheaper then it is today guess I only owe this amount now, but it was not Mark Miller, the rate is going up each day and since that transfer has not left your bank you owe me $4837.75 CAD no matter what day it is.

7 – Your attempt to record the chat means nothing, as I have been patient with you for over a year and ripping me off will prove you pushed me to far already. 1 year of lies, 2 weeks of promises never completed, and now 4 – 5 days of extra waiting….I even said if your ever in my shoes lets see you handle this better, but of course you had your remark I would not buy anything Canadian. That is fine we would never deal with you anyways.

8 – The so called deal with another breeder has nothing to do with this as you like to bring more of another deal that is not related to you at all, so your pathetic attempt is useless. You do not know any of the details and over and over in your emails it shows you were backing out of the deal because that boa is gaining value in your greedy hands. I never screwed anyone over both in buying or selling Mark but I have proof here you are the opposite. Your feeble attempts to gain your friends does not prove my facts are false it only shows you’re a rat running.

9 – The deal states 50% now and 50% after you agreed and you can not change the deal, paying off the boa would not change shipping one bit you still have no paperwork saying ready to ship, CITIES has no clue about your paperwork and 1 year of this proves it. Don’ t be crying I did not pay it off, we agreed and it is stated, and you do not have the final go ahead from CITIES in 1 year either.

In simple Mark I appreciate you coming on here and saying your “facts” but you have nothing that can contest my facts and I will expose you and that is that. My facts are on the mark, and about Mark Miller the breeder / seller to avoid dealing with for everyone.

Tony Pharosx
 
I've read all of this and come to one simple conclusion.

A deal was made, and then the deal was changed by the seller seeking more money as an initial deposit than originally agreed upon.

No matter the excuse, This is not good business. Granted there may have been things that caused the deal to change such as additional animals being shipped and changes to CITES paperwork but it seems from the correspondence above the change in the deal was prompted by the sellers personal finance situations. Unfortunate situation, it happens to the best of us, but it is still no excuse.


You stated that additional delay was due to the addition of animals to the CITES paperwork. If there were errors which needed correction the same delay would apply. Your very own email states these errors and issues on October 28th 2004. You began changing the deal before this, as early as October 24th 2004. If you REALLY want to be literal you began changing the deal back in July when attempting to have him purchase snakes in Canada using a balance that was owed upon the DELIVERY of his purchase, basically another way to force an additional pre-shipment "deposit" of sorts, changing the original deal. I'll be generous though and stick with that October date. The date you began hinting at your financial situation, the thoughts of other breeders, the fact that you could have sold locally, and your outright request on the 24th in an additional email stating that "You cannot afford to wait another week...." etc. etc. etc.

Note all of this BEFORE you made mention of ANY errors or problems in paperwork. Dates do not lie, and a close keen eye can see all of this in the above correspondence.

If I am wrong, correct me. Thanks for hearing my .02
 
Mickey TLK: I don' t mind paying the extra fees for CITIES, shipping and even maintenance on the boa so its $500.00 that don' t matter. I was more than ready to go above the call of duty. I did it for a year and more. I sucked up my expenses because I believed I was getting this boa simply because I did my part to own it as agreed. The jump in price comes from our phone chat as Mark got smart to me saving my emails so saying it on phone was safer for him. Even then that does not matter I offered to find my own CITIES, but he will only sell her at a higher value now because my "so called" refund is coming.....it has not been processed though so I had to put this thread up to prove he is ripping me off on more than 1 principle. Now after discussing with many people my second offer to get her is much more dangerous for me because as stated no insurance for me and if I pay him in full and do my own CITIES, there is not proof that boa will arrive healthy and safe amd I would be out all money and a boa for sure. But I did offer this second option only to keep the deal fair and solid and even avoid the BOI, but I would take a loss from dealing with Mark anyways......its been a year I took a huge loss way beyond my money.

Now Mark will keep, sell, breed this boa and gain more from it, but that and using my money for a year is where the fire starts. I now believe I paid him as a loan instead of buying this boa, because he gained more in a year and I am only asking what is owed in full up to the penny. But I am owed much more on this whole deal as any contract like this in copurt would reward me much more.

Tony Pharosx
 
The Boidsmith: I think you understand my points and thank you as you also see he broke rules involved in doing business.

But complete satisfaction will never happen, I deserve more than my refund......I did not only lose money, but a project I was hoping to work with, endless possibilities with this boa, fees I endured to make my deposits, a year of excuses and lies, and the list can go on as a lawyer would easily tack on much more reasons. The fear of the authorities being involved made Mark do something this past Friday, but he made a bad attempt to finialize this with me.

Tony Pharosx
 
Mickey_TLK said:
See there are many sides to this story, yes the deal went bad. But Im 100% confident come tuesday when Tony has his refund in hand that Mark will be guilty of nothing more then decideng to NOT RISK a loss and refund Tony. HIS RIGHT.

I agree there are usually many sides to the same story, and try to give benifit of doubt whenever possible. But as my previous post stated, there are definately a few thinks Mark did that could be corrected in future dealings. I can understand not being aware of additional shipping costs and similar things, but when a deal is made, it is final. Since he was not familiar with international shipping this is one of those live and learn mistakes, in this scenario I would have done just that. Lived and learned. I set and agreed to a price, and I'll stick to it. I guess im one of few who would think that way....

Either way, I'm glad to hear he made the refund and hope to hear good news tuesday. I don't think anyone should be persecuted or hung out to dry here, it just seems there are some issues with this transaction that could have been dealt with MUCH better.
 
BOAS_N_PYTHONS said:
But I am owed much more on this whole deal as any contract like this in copurt would reward me much more.

Tony Pharosx

Actually, no. They would not. First of all you would spend much more coming here to bring it to court. Then you would be told that the initial exchange of money was a TRANSACTION. Not a loan. There was no pre-determined agreement regarding interest.

Sorry.
 
Keep in mind: Courts do not care about projects or anything involved for that matter. You can obviously try, but the bottom line is they will look at it as material goods, nothing more. A boat, a car, a house, an expensive snake. All the same to them..... But I understand your emotions on this matter. It stinks.
 
OK Tony, I will give you the benifit of the doubt, and see your side. Yes if this was all just a HOAX to keep your money for a year, then Mark would be fully in the wrong. But then you go and imply that he would be shipping you a sickly snake and you would have no recourse. I can assure you that the snake is FLAWLESS. I have had the pleasure of seeing Marks collection in person, and there isnt a bad animal in the bunch. I also for a time owned one of the sunglows Mark produced last season, so I know first hand the quality of his snakes.

With that in mind I have to agree more with Marks point of view. He knows the quality of the snake he has in his hands. Hes sure its a good animal, but the remainder of the money owed, well that he does not know. Untill its in his hands, he has to take into consideration things hes been told.

When you posted a MARK MILLER PLEASE CONTACT ME post on KS, did you get a responce from another person you had a deal going with asking you to do the same? I know your going to say its irrelevent, but if your going to make Marks Motley purchase rellevent, then your other deals are as well.

From what I have been told by Mark, I would have to agree with him. If for some reason Im proven wrong, I will state so publicly. YES THE DEAL SUCKS, but from the stories Im told it sounds like it sucks on both ends. I do not think Mark is a theif as you have tried to make him out to be. I do think the deal went bad, but Im of the mind set that it took two people to make this deal go bad. Just MY OPINION, based on my dealings with Mark. Obviously I have never MET OR SPOKEN with Tony, so again this is just MY OPINION.
 
I also understand making this thread that friends and happy customers of Mark would try and defend in some manner, but my facts can not be contested.....end of it all I was being ripped off since day one with Mark Miller and only because I believed I was getting this boa I accepted these year ah mess from him. Now he reverses the deal cries I am making a thread and hears I will go well above my legal rights to expose him, now he tries to defend himself with this and that but nothing that can prove my facts are wrong....in simple in court each piece of fact and proof must be either accepted or contested so the case can come to a verdict.

Mark Miller can' t even bother to prove my facts are wrong but tries to bring others details not related to our deal into this thread, in court the judge would state that is useless information.

Tony Pharosx
 
By the way, in order to save the MARK ARE YOU DUCKING THE QUESTIONS POSTS, I am going to inform you folks that he is on his way to my store to sell me some boas.

As such he will not be on fauna for atleast 6-8 hours as its atleast a 3 hour drive each way and he JUST LEFT.

Just figured Id point this out.
 
Well I can tell this will be one full blow out mess already. It just seems this is one of those bad deals gone WORSE.

Hopefully the refund is recieved on Tuesday as promised and all is done. Walk away and learn from it.......

Good Luck!
 
Top Shelf Exotics: I thank you as well for reading my full thread with my facts, I could have just copy/pasted everything and hoped everyone would believe me, I could have wrote anything really, but alot of posts on here I noticed that way of doing things does not prove much. I took the images and pointed out the details that do apply to this deal. You saw this and many other as well. So I thank you for that.

Anyone else that does not see the facts and thinks Mark is in the right, I guess facts are not good enough, I was going to expose Mark Miller on copy/paste method I brought the facts and that is good enough.

NOTE:

Also 1 more thing in my first phone call to Mark he said he would find out about shipping, CITIES and bank information. Once we discussed this further more and my first full email started about the details I was led to believe he was ready to fo-fill this deal. But in truth the only thing he really did was provide me with the bank information, amazing that was the only thing he did right. :hot:
 
Tony

If you were told by people you trust (or atleast have no reason not to trust) that a person whom you were dealing with might not be 100% on the up and up in their deals, would you then ship them with a balance owed?

Again I go back to my deal with a canadian, once I found out what the whole story was, I did a bit of research on the buyer with other breeders whom I trust. I offered a refund while the reference gathering was going on, but I would not ship (even with "full payment" in this case due to payment method) untill the reference had taken place.

From what Im told your references just didnt add up. If thats the case, there is no way I would have shipped without full payment.

Again all that I can see Mark being guilty of is saying yes to half payment, and then later getting cold feet. If Marks account has been froze, and they say the money is there, then YOU WILL HAVE YOUR REFUND.

You have made your post, told your side. Im sure many people, hearing your side will fully agree with you. Thats their right. Others hearing both sides may side with Mark. You have gotten your revenge, enjoy it.

Yes Im Marks friend, and yes that taints my point of view on this one. As Ive said the deal sucks, MOVE ON. I hope come tuesday or wed. whenever it is, when you get your money you atleast post that it was recieved. From some of your statements made on other forums, you seem to be the type that may not even do this untill forced to. You sure like to make it seem like Mark INFLATED THE PRICE OF THE SNAKE, but then turn around and say that the money for the extra fees involved with shipping were acceptable here in this thread. If thats the case, then you whole he inflated the cost of the snake argument just doesnt fly.

You had chances to back out on the deal the whole time. Maybe Mark should have eaten the shipping costs. It sounds like in the end he ate almost as much as your "inflating the cost of the snake" charges would have been. He didnt have to refund the exchange value, only the value you gave him. He cant help it that your economy must really suck (as the value of the american dollar surely isnt rising if Im not mistaken...LOL). So the 300+ hes allready covered is actually you inflating the cost of the refund when the terms were not acceptable on both sides.

Again, Mark isnt some giant business. Hes on Man who produces snakes. As such he has to look out for #1. I dont mean he should cancel the sale now to get more money on the sunglow, but I also dont believe he should ship now when owed money on a animal hes worked hard to produce, raise, and risk death, ect while the year this deal has taken transpired. He lives in Kansas, the weather can get rough, power can be lost for days if not weeks in very rare cases. Should this have happened while he waited for all the bs, he would have been responsible for the refund for a dead snake that could have been sold months earlier.

Im sure, if you were someone he felt he could trust, or if you both had an agreed person you could trust, that the deal could still be done at the agreed price (thats the PRICE WITH SHIPPING, THAT YOU AGREED TO AND HAVE ONLY NOW COMPLAINED ABOUT). Maybe you guys need to have the refund hit your account, and then if you truely have the money and want the snake, maybe one of the upstanding members here with a export permit could be chosen as a mediator. Money and snake sent to this person for shipment. Once money is in mediators hand, snake would be in mediators hand.

But then again, Im sure not many people want to mediate a risk of 4000$, same reson no one in their right mind would send a snake across a border without payment, you see that at all?
 
Top Shelf Exotics: I understand your points I am simply stating that I have taken more of a loss during this process, remember I do not have the boa, nor my money I paid for it, and the extra would be knowing I was closer to a project I was hoping to work on. I understand that last part does not come into play. But I have seen and know of situations in court where people get more than anything beyond what they deserved. And after discussing this with legal council I know my rights. But even my request to comply with my full refund....Mark has not completed that and can not prove it either. If I had a copy of what was done at the bank then maybe but that teller gave me nothing and its my money to request some proof on.

Please do not take this response as anything other than me stating my view, its nothing against you. :)

Tony Pharosx
 
Maybe since I look so one sided defending a friend blindly at this point, I should just ask a question point blank rather then hinting at it.

Tony

Do you have other deals pending with other dealers here in the US for animals to be exported to you in Canada that you owe balances on also?

Have you delayed the shipping on any of theese deals, maybe by claiming a vacation, ect, to gain time?

I will say openly that this is information that was told to Mark, and later told to me. Thus its 3rd or 4th party information at BEST.

But untill you openly answer theese questions, I have no resaon to doubt why Mark would NOT ship without full payment. And I again say I wouldnt have either.

If your answers prove theese statements FALSE, then I will likely be proven wrong, and I will appologize at that time.

If your answers prove theese statements correct (and remeber many eyes are watching now, youve got your show trial) then NOTHING you say will be taken seriously by anyone.

Enjoy the BOI, it does work both ways. And again, make sure you post if you get your refund, it is important and relevent.
 
Mickey TLK: I understand your point on references and if you mean people who I have bought or sold to, then I can 100% state those references would have stated that I do business in a respectful, professional, and honest manner. I gave Mark Miller 3 names, I could have given him maybe 6 that count up the best big names in Canada. But my most recent 3 were available to Mark. That being Don Patterson, Henry Piorun and Chris Marshell. All these I bought from and paid in full and was happy with the deal. Anyone can trash talk someone as a reference but I choose these 3 as my choices because I am led to believe these people would state I do honest business. I have not ripped off anyone and I always pay my bills. I do have other animals waiting payment but that person knows my situation and knows I will come good on it as soon as my money is returned from Mark.

Only reason I state this is because I see no reason to front more money into that account paying extra fees of currency when I have money coming back to me in that account via Mark Miller. Mark knows this and knows I wanted my final deal to be ready and shipped this week as I promised my other deal on. Since I was not getting my boa from Mark, I want mu money back after he stated 3 plus times to walk from the deal after I made my deposits. After the 4th time I said screw this, fine forget it send me money and when. As stated it was for May 16, 2005 - it is now May 29, 2005 and Mark can not prove that money is in my account right now, but I can as soon as I revieve my newsest statement I will image it here to prove Mark coming here stating he made the refund in full is another lie. Saying it was done and facts proving dates I will show after. I understand your hearing Mark' s side and yes you have not heard mine in person or my voice, but I am not wrong here and my facts prove it.

I also understand coming to the BOI, I am to deal and explain my actions, but in the end do not make this like a rape victim case....just look at the actual facts, hear say from others does not state facts.

If you can email or pm me all the other references that can say I do business bad and state the details as I deserve to know who states what on my reputation. Because I bet they are not business related, we all know people can have enemies......and that is fine, but which are customers or seller that I did wrong I would like to know....thank you if you can pm or email this information.

Tony Pharosx
 
"I dont see where Mark changed the price on the ANIMAL. He included additonal charges that were to be charged to him (shipping, paperwork, ect) but DID NOT raise the price of the actual ANIMAL."

He raised the price of what it would cost Tony to get that animal. They had an agreement, and he changet the price. Simple as that!

"I personally dont see anything wrong with this. What was Mark supposed to eat this money?"

That is exactly what he should have done. Ever heard the saying a deal is a deal?

"The customer could have easily said Im not willing to pay that amount, please refund my money."

Why in the world should he have to? They had a deal!!!

"How many of you would eat hundreds of additonal dollars on shipping charges, PLUS SEND AN ANIMAL ACROSS A BORDER WITH ONLY HALF PAYMENT. Lets be realistic here."

The question is irrelevant. He agreed to do it, so he should honor his word.

"Mark has addmitted he agreed to ship with half payment, and THEN CHANGED HIS MIND ON THIS POINT. I DONT BLAME HIM."

The fact that you see no wrong in Mark "changing his mind" is not in my opinion something that I would want to advertise if I were you, but that is just me.

"That does NOT make him a thief."

You are correct, it just makes him a lier, and a untrustworthy business man.

"Does it make him the best of businessmen, maybe not at a quick glance."

The best of businessmen??? He is a far cry from that, and forget "maybe", . The answer to your question should be more like: Definitely not even a good businessman at any glance.

Micky, I just do not think you get it. It is simply unacceptable to change a deal after you have taken someones money. Mark made a deal, and he tried to change the terms after the fact. That makes him a lier, and someone to be avoided. End of story.
 
Mickey TLK: Information on other deals here does not apply to Mark' s deal with me. This is me and Mark, anything else does not apply. Do I have to explain every detail of my life out of the deal with Mark to convince you my facts shown above are legit, and I ask why....they are there in the open. As stated by you, your in communication with Mark. Yet he does not come here to contest my facts now. You can be friends with Mark I have no problem with that. But I came to the BOI to show how a seller is wasting my time for a year, that is the discussion not every other thing in my life.

So please understand don' t push the discussion aside to avoid and give Mark credit for his actions being legit, my facts show he is wrong, people see it and trying to defend him does not have much strenght if it is not related to the deal between me and him, anything else is not part of it.

Like you and I said we don' t know each other, so instead of asking me this and that why don' t you have public questions for Mark, why am I being accused on this when he is the one ripping me off, my facts are there and people see it....if you can just read it all again, put aside you know Mark since you don' t know me and then judge.

Thank you.

Tony Pharosx
 
Also I will state this I am not coming here to get people to to accept me or be my friend, that is your choice if we have something in common (boas or pythons) I appreciate having friends to learn and discuss with and gain knowledge. But if you see me as something different than that is fine as well, we all have our "people" as good and bads. I am not afraid to state I have enemies, it happens......but none are related to business and that is what I went to the BOI for, to voice this situation and make people aware. Take it or not, all up to you. Being I am in Canada this can happen again to a fellow Canadian or someone world wide. It is easier to do a transaction with Mark if your in the USA. And he may come good on that, but internationally he is not ready to do busines and his website is false on that....that should be noted as well, also stating SOLD to TONY on website means I was led to believe this was my boa. All my facts show I am right, I would not even consider going to the bOI with a copy / paste fire fight like many do to hurt people' s reps. I came here to prove my point and it has not been challenged yet. And brings in hear say and statement of other people does not change that this is this business and I am wronged.

Thank you for your time, I will stay in touch and reply if need be. But until I can see proof from Mark proving my facts are wrong the end result would be his friends trying to hang me dry, but if you are here to reply, then do so as an open minded person to both sides not just a friends side.

Tony Pharosx
 
Pch101: Thank you for seeing the facts as they are, your not the only one and I appreciate the support. But one thing I learned about forums is though you are doing the right thing people still come on to challenge that person, and I have learned from that, that most are usually friends trying to reverse the situation. Not saying it is that way but it was stated that MIckey knows and has communication with Mark, again that is fine I do not need to rally Mikey to my side, but I do ask be opened minded to the facts presented and not be buddy/buddy the accused just "because".

In saying that I do not know anyone here that has replied so far, hope to one day but at, moment I do not know anyone here. Also the reason why I love the USA BOI is because the admonstration chagres to post in this section it should be across the board ieven in the Canadian BOI, that way we weed out the "shades of people who like to start fights with nothing more than emotion behind it", I am willing to support the forum and when I saw that I was to be charged to post here I thought "holy" but I understand what the adminstration is doing and fully support it 100%.

Congrats to the adminstartion.

Tony Pharosx
 
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