Mark Miller of Loco-Lizards Liar and a Thief

[johnmartino]

Just an update. Still no response and still no pic of a dead snake.

 

[johnmartino]

Mark seems to have allot of time on his hands posting on the forums and advertising animals for sale. To bad he doesnt have the time to make things right, let alone post a pic of a dead snake.

 

[KCRD.com]

I would also mention that people would need to use great caution when dealing with Mark's supporters.

I do not agree with this, I have simply stated that Mark and I have done successful business transactions in the past. For me or anyone else who has stated the above about Mark to be held accountable for any actions that he has done with someone else is just asinine. My business and personal reputation shouldn't suffer because someone I've done successful business with has a blemish in the public eye.

Anyone that does a search on me or my business on this site or any other site will know very quickly what kind of business I run, and it certainly isn't the kind that you are insinuating by the above comment.

 

[Griz]

Jason, with all due respect, stop blowing smoke. Anyone can go back to the first few pages and see that your comments here were much more then simply stating you've had a few successful transactions. You've gone out of your way to blindly support this thief and THAT is reason enough for anyone to second guess doing business with you.

You and I have done business and the transaction went well. However, in this business you have to support the good guys and weed out the bad. Guess where Mark stands with most here? That's right Jason, the bad. He's a thief and liar and anyone that supports such behavior has to be subject to the same scrutiny.

Griz

 

[KCRD.com]

Basically what you are saying is that since Mark is a friend of mine and that we have done business together in the past, I should be held under the same scrutiny as he has even though a have a spotless track record.

With this mentality you should put any close friends or family on the same trial as anyone that commits harsh crimes. Just because someone is affiliated with them doesn't mean they are the same kind of, well in this case business person.

I stated that I had a hard time believing that Mark would knowingly rip someone off due to the fact that I set up with him at shows a lot, and talk with him on the phone occasionally. I have seen first hand what kind of person he is in regards to his business practices and the information and statements that were being said about him on this thread didn't add up to what I know of him. Since then I have spoken with Mark about this transaction, and other deals and it still doesn't 100% add up.

I feel at this point the only way to get a clear, concise decision on either party this should go before some kind of legal court. There is no doubt that all of the information will certainly be put out for all to know and that the ruling of the court should and would prove who is in the right and wrong. I have never done business with the other person involved in this transaction, so I have no opinion of him, however I do of Mark and will still say that until he is proved guilty of ripping off his customer, it is all opinion and hear say, which unfortunately is the how most of the opinions of sellers in this hobby are derived weather they are accurate or not. I will say that in most cases they are accurate, but I feel that not all of the information has been made public in this case by both parties and because of that I don't feel like we can make an accurate decision on either party.

I do however feel that none of the people involved in this thread other than the buyer and or the seller should be made out to be a "bad business person".

Once again that is my opinion.

 

[ravensgait]

Jason, yes your reputation looks good but again you are supporting someone who sure looks like a bad guy.

It doesn't make you wonder why the guy can't even post a photo to prove the snake is even dead? This alone would make me question even a friend and would sure cause me to think twice before publicly backing this person unless they could prove to me that their story was on the up and up. So come on don't act so hurt your going out of your way to give support to this guy...

Hey I don't know either one other than by their reputations and well John's rep still looks good where Mark's seems to be in that whirl pool right before the water leaves the toilet..Randy

 

[Griz]

Randy, Jason is simply choosing to bury his head in the sand with regards to Mark. He's ignored obvious and glaring inconsistencies, Mark's refusal to follow industry standards with regards to the death of this animal.....everything. And for what reason? Because Mark is a friend.

Hell, my brother is serving ~2 years right now in prison for some drug offenses. Before he went to trial I was on the phone with the DA giving him more information about my brother and encouraging him to make sure that my brother received time. Why? Because he was guilty as hell and I would not allow him to tarnish the Woodard name any further. I love my brother but I'll be damned if he is going to receive special treatment by me simply because we're blood.

Ignore the obvious Jason. There's nothing like a thread to show people's true character.

Griz

 

[KCRD.com]

I have no doubt that people that read these threads will make judgments. I can't control the thoughts of others but any decent human being would not condemn others for something that one of their friends, family members, acquaintance, or peers has done if they didn't have anything to do with it.

If my making statements as to Mark has always done me good on deals and others that I've seen at shows have had consistent good dealings with him makes me a "bad guy" then call me a bad guy. Those that know me from the last four years of me being in business and that have actually done business with me will tell you that I am a stand up business man. Hell even Griz himself said that he's done successful business with me and he's the one trying to "throw me under the bus." I'm beginning to see that some members of this site do not believe in the right of free speech, so much that they will attempt to disparage an established business man for simply stating personal facts about another breeder/vendor. I now see why Mark has refused to post anymore about this subject, the majority of the readers of this thread have already condemned him. Like I mentioned before, if both parties want this to be taken care of the "fair" way, take it to court. It's time to crap or get off the pot. Name calling and finger pointing isn't doing anything but wasting more web space.

This is my last post on this endless black hole of a thread.

 

[ravensgait]

I have no doubt that people that read these threads will make judgments. I can't control the thoughts of others but any decent human being would not condemn others for something that one of their friends, family members, acquaintance, or peers has done if they didn't have anything to do with it.

If my making statements as to Mark has always done me good on deals and others that I've seen at shows have had consistent good dealings with him makes me a "bad guy" then call me a bad guy. Those that know me from the last four years of me being in business and that have actually done business with me will tell you that I am a stand up business man. Hell even Griz himself said that he's done successful business with me and he's the one trying to "throw me under the bus." I'm beginning to see that some members of this site do not believe in the right of free speech, so much that they will attempt to disparage an established business man for simply stating personal facts about another breeder/vendor. I now see why Mark has refused to post anymore about this subject, the majority of the readers of this thread have already condemned him. Like I mentioned before, if both parties want this to be taken care of the "fair" way, take it to court. It's time to crap or get off the pot. Name calling and finger pointing isn't doing anything but wasting more web space.

This is my last post on this endless black hole of a thread.

Free speech??? just like you were free to make the post above?? Seems that everyone here has gotten to use free speech .. You have the right to free speech just as others have the right to tell you what they thought of Your Free speech. Free speech can get expensive.

Jason your buddy is being judged here just like anyone else is judged here. He could come here and defend himself but can't seem to be bothered to do that.. I wonder why That is. Hey if this were a court room he'd lose as he hasn't answered the complaint. Mark looks bad here and doesn't say a word so what are those who read this thread to think?? I don't think many will feel all that great about Mark.

You posted you have had good deals with Mark and that's fine, yet you IMO(seems I'm not alone) are going out of your way to defend Mark. If you want to go out of your way here then don't be surprised that others go out of their way for you here, as you seem to be finding out..

Instead of defending Mark here, why don't you ask him to come here and explain himself and oh ask him about some proof that the snake is dead!! You know you'd want proof if someone had one of yours and said well sorry it croaked..
Randy

 

[johnmartino]

Just for the record i have looked into taking Mark to court. It seems to be a very difficult task. It is not really possible to take him to trial as after i spoke to a lawyer with fees(including phone charges) and all it wouldnt be practical. I would also have to travel numerous times to Kansas from NY. I can sue in small claims court, once again in Kansas, but the most i would be allowed to win is $4k. I have no problem doing that, $4k is better than nothing but once again i would have to travel numerous times to Kansas. I have also watched someone go through it right here in NY and it was no picnic. After 4 times to court they actually won and still cant get paid! The sheriff is trying to get involved but it is one big mess. I wouldnt put it past Mark to know all this already when he decided to not make good on our deal.

 

[Griz]

I have no doubt that people that read these threads will make judgments. I can't control the thoughts of others but any decent human being would not condemn others for something that one of their friends, family members, acquaintance, or peers has done if they didn't have anything to do with it.

Trust me Jason, they have read them and they are passing judgment. As for not passing judgment on something their peers etc have done.....you're naive. You are absolutely foolish if you believe that "decent people" won't pass judgment on someone who is supporting a person where the evidence is, thus far anyways, clearly against him. You're ignoring the obvious facts simply for the sake of protecting a buddy. Call it naive or stupidity, I don't care, but it will hurt a persons sales.

If my making statements as to Mark has always done me good on deals and others that I've seen at shows have had consistent good dealings with him makes me a "bad guy" then call me a bad guy. Those that know me from the last four years of me being in business and that have actually done business with me will tell you that I am a stand up business man. Hell even Griz himself said that he's done successful business with me and he's the one trying to "throw me under the bus." I'm beginning to see that some members of this site do not believe in the right of free speech, so much that they will attempt to disparage an established business man for simply stating personal facts about another breeder/vendor. I now see why Mark has refused to post anymore about this subject, the majority of the readers of this thread have already condemned him. Like I mentioned before, if both parties want this to be taken care of the "fair" way, take it to court. It's time to crap or get off the pot. Name calling and finger pointing isn't doing anything but wasting more web space.

This is my last post on this endless black hole of a thread.

Jason, do really believe that people here don't know how to read your posts that don't appear on this page? You've done more than simply stated you've done successful business with Mark. You've gone out of your way to defend his behaviors and to rationalize his theft. And THAT, is why people will question your motives and thereby your business.

Ever wonder Jason why you don't see Ronne, Pete etc on here defending people they know? It's because they know that it's not good business to get involved in someone else's affairs. You've not learned that lesson yet. Hopefully, this thread will give you a valuable life lesson in that defending someone like Mark is not in your best interest.

Don't let a friendship get in the way of your business. You simply will not come out of this unscathed.

Griz

 

[DaveyFig]

I know this is an old thread, but Mark is now claiming that John produced babies using this male...any truth to that?

 

[johnmartino]

There is ABSOLUTELY no truth to that. Funny how mark cant even show me a pic of a dead snake I paid $6500 for, but can start new rumors. He never mentioned that to me?????? Of course once the snake died, (allegedly), he ceased all correspondence with me. I guess he just needs to put a new spin on an old problem. With all the heat he has been getting by screwing all these people he is trying to deflect. He never responds to anyone, that seems to be his MO once he screws you over. Of course if he refunded my $6500 and then paid accordingly i would gladly sell him a baby for him to do a DNA test.

 

[DaveyFig]

John, have you visited the thread on Clay's site? Mark seems to think that Todd is the only person he has wrong, and plans to fix that.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

So he admits to doing wrong to Todd, and we're supposed to believe he hasn't done wrong to others?

Yup. I'll buy that for a dollar.

 

[johnmartino]

No, I havent been to Clays site since I tried to post and it all got deleted. I tried to explain to Clay and he was nice enough, but said that stuff couldnt be discussed there. I said i understood but was upset just the same. One of my problems was the guy that got the Lipstick Sunglow male that was part of the deal for the Blood boa from Mark had a pic of the animal he was getting before he even got it. I contacted him to tell him he was getting a "tainted" animal so to speak and to reconsider getting that animal from Mark as Mark was still screwing me over and i was hoping to atleast get one of my animals back. He told me to "F" off as he was in Canada and international law didnt apply to him or something... That was the last time I visted there and i dont really see any reason to go back. He was/is a sponser over there and if i cant even get a pic of a dead snake, what is he really going to do for me now? I do know that Mark has a hard time thinking for himself and is a puppet to the people he owes money to. If they want something he has, even though he may owe it to someone else, he gives it over to them.

 

[Larr]

No, I havent been to Clays site since I tried to post and it all got deleted. I tried to explain to Clay and he was nice enough, but said that stuff couldnt be discussed there. I said i understood but was upset just the same. One of my problems was the guy that got the Lipstick Sunglow male that was part of the deal for the Blood boa from Mark had a pic of the animal he was getting before he even got it. I contacted him to tell him he was getting a "tainted" animal so to speak and to reconsider getting that animal from Mark as Mark was still screwing me over and i was hoping to atleast get one of my animals back. He told me to "F" off as he was in Canada and international law didnt apply to him or something... That was the last time I visted there and i dont really see any reason to go back. He was/is a sponser over there and if i cant even get a pic of a dead snake, what is he really going to do for me now? I do know that Mark has a hard time thinking for himself and is a puppet to the people he owes money to. If they want something he has, even though he may owe it to someone else, he gives it over to them.

John thanks for posting this info. Very good stuff to know. I now know with some certainty which Lipstick Coral sunglow I often see pictured is your animal. Wow. Thanks
. . . . . . Lar M

 

[McLovin]

My brother and I have made numerous purchases and trades with Mark and never had any problems. I have never known Mark to not stick to what he said he would do. Mark has always treated us fairly. I do think there are two sides to every story though, and we are only getting half.

not even a year later and this happens to you Ray. I wish you the best John and Ray

 

[johnmartino]

Thanks Bob. I guess they are getting the other half now unfortunately huh?

 

[raybueno]

Boy were we WRONG!!!