Mice vs. Rats

[shrap]

I have fed live for 25 years. There is more risk of injury no one can deny, but if you set up consistent feeding routines and KNOW your snakes it can be done safely. I have NEVER had anything more than a small scratch that barely broke the skin in 100's of live feedings.

As far as humane killing goes.... try a CO2 chamber. They are very cheap to make. Here is a pick of mine.

All it consists of is a 20 oz. CO2 paintball cannister, a paintball "quick release" hose and a tub. Will cost you all of about $25-$30.

 

[jglass38]

Excellent post Shrap.

 

[rabernet]

I have fed live for 25 years. There is more risk of injury no one can deny, but if you set up consistent feeding routines and KNOW your snakes it can be done safely. I have NEVER had anything more than a small scratch that barely broke the skin in 100's of live feedings.

In the last year - if you calculate the number snakes that I own times the number of feedings, I've had over 700 feedings, and I've never had a scratch or wound either.

I agree 100% that having consistent feeding routines and knowing your snakes reduces the risk of injury. Feeding appropriately sized prey will also reduce the risk of injury.

I've spoken to other keepers who have fed live as long as you Shrap - who also report no injuries as a result of live feeding. It's all about doing it responsibly.

I do want to address the "horror" pictures that are shown to scare people off live feeding. Those injuries are not a result of live feeding - they are a result of irresponsible owners - leaving prey in with the snake, uneaten overnight, if not for days and could have been prevented if the owner had removed the prey after 30 minutes or so.

But this isn't a discussion if one is better than the other (live vs. dead) but what works best for the individual keeper. However - I still say that prey needs to be treated humanely and with respect. I don't believe and the AVA doesn't recognize stunning prey as humane.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Am I seriously not speaking English? I'm really starting to wonder.

I am not trying to kill prey in any way, shape, or form. I already am well aware of how to build a CO2 chamber and how to break the neck at the base of the skull. Both of those are useless to me, as they will not eat any form of dead prey, whether it was killed 20 seconds prior or 1 month prior. The question I am repeatedly posing (and thus behind this entire discussion on stunned), how would you feed a snake that refuses dead prey but tends to be bad at taking live prey? I feed live to all of my snakes, and only 2 of them have this issue of not grabbing the head. Last night Diego had a complete set of rat teeth lodged in his side until I grabbed the head and held it away. I stun the rats to prevent them from doing that if those 2 particular snakes grab them wrong and so far, it has been working. Why is this such a big deal?

Rats are animals too, I understand that. I used to keep them as pets for years before getting my first snake. But if it comes down to a rat not feeling pain vs. my snake's hunger, the snake wins.

Wilomn, I'm pretty much done here anyway. It seems like people are either ignoring the issue I'm bringing up, or are so adamant about making theirs that they don't care if it's completely unrelated. As far as the rat size thing...yeah, it really varies. When I lived in Wisconsin, I got my rats from the breeder I bought Spoon from. His "small" was about half the size of the "small" ones I have to buy here. Even the reptile shop's "smalls" are huge.

 

[jglass38]

Am I seriously not speaking English? I'm really starting to wonder.

I am not trying to kill prey in any way, shape, or form. I already am well aware of how to build a CO2 chamber and how to break the neck at the base of the skull. Both of those are useless to me, as they will not eat any form of dead prey, whether it was killed 20 seconds prior or 1 month prior. The question I am repeatedly posing (and thus behind this entire discussion on stunned), how would you feed a snake that refuses dead prey but tends to be bad at taking live prey? I feed live to all of my snakes, and only 2 of them have this issue of not grabbing the head. Last night Diego had a complete set of rat teeth lodged in his side until I grabbed the head and held it away. I stun the rats to prevent them from doing that if those 2 particular snakes grab them wrong and so far, it has been working. Why is this such a big deal?

Rats are animals too, I understand that. I used to keep them as pets for years before getting my first snake. But if it comes down to a rat not feeling pain vs. my snake's hunger, the snake wins.

Wilomn, I'm pretty much done here anyway. It seems like people are either ignoring the issue I'm bringing up, or are so adamant about making theirs that they don't care if it's completely unrelated. As far as the rat size thing...yeah, it really varies. When I lived in Wisconsin, I got my rats from the breeder I bought Spoon from. His "small" was about half the size of the "small" ones I have to buy here. Even the reptile shop's "smalls" are huge.

The answer is, feed a smaller prey item. Please, I think you should stay here...I can think of other places you might not want to frequent...

 

[v2rherp]

most of the time you can easily switch them over to live. might take some time, as in weeks or months. sooner or later they will get hungry enough to eat. with picky eaters, i find that smaller rodents work best. i went from small rats to rat pups with one, to get her eating steady and then back to small rats after several weeks of pups. pups should not be a danger to your snake.


vaughn

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

The 2 weirdos are not having trouble eating live, they take them just fine. They just grab them wrong and then leave themselves open to getting bitten, like last night.

Jamie, I don't have access to any prey smaller than a small rat. No pet stores or anything within a 25 mile radius sells anything live smaller than a small rat, it's "against policy" or "state policy" or some crap like that. My rats have not started breeding yet. The only place I can get smaller live prey is from Apex Rodents, which is an hour and 15 minutes away in Austin. I talked to Cheryl before about ordering from them, but I'd be going down there every other week.

If I feed them weanlings or mice, I'd have to feed them 3-5 every 5 days. These 2 males are big, both over 2000g. One is 2140g and the other is 2460g.

What do you mean by you "can think of a few other places I might not want to frequent"?

 

[ball pythonz]

Cant you guys just do that c02 method or whatever? My pet store usually has frozen mice, but when they dont im forced to kill a live mouse and i feel bad the rest of the day. Mice are cool lol. My pet store doesnt have frozen rats though, so i have to figure out how to kill rats, i was thinking c02. Sounds better than wacking them like we do.

 

[SPJ]

What do you mean by you "can think of a few other places I might not want to frequent"?

I can probably name one place Jamie is thinking of.
RedtailBoas.net
Just mention live feeding and all hell will break loose. Bort (Wes will know who I mean ) is the leader of the "you're a terrible keeper if you don't feed f/t". Pack mentality. They would tear you apart for posting something like this over there.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

I'll stay here and on BP.net...I don't need more drama. lol!

 

[the_deeb]

Ok - I've already stated my opinions on the importance of killing rodents humanely in another thread. I concur with the opinion that "thumping" isn't the best way to do things and that stunning certainly isn't humane (hoo-t: your suggestion that a hard blow to the head somehow leaves a mouse or rat immune to pain really doesn't hold water). On the flip side, I think it's hard for people who feed live to preach about the importance of humane killing since I'm pretty sure "death by biting and constriction" isn't sancationed by the AVA.

Now, with that being said, I see your point Jen - your inept pythons do appear to be leaving you in a predicament. But the fact that rabernet, shrap and other have fed loads of snakes live without any problems makes me wonder.... is it possible that your guys are just bad at killing because you let them be?

Now please note - I'm not trying to be an ass here, this is a serious question. I have practically no experience with ball pythons having just recieved my first pair this week.

With that disclaimer, is it possible that because your watchful hand is ready to dive in there and finish the job for them your balls don't really have any motivation to go in for a proper kill? While not the smartest of animals I would think snakes should have the ability to learn so wouldn't you think that after a few bites your snakes would learn to strike and kill more effectively? I'm not really advocating that you allow your snakes to get torn up by an angry rat - I realize that's not an option and certainly wouldn't allow it to happen to my guys. I'm more curious as to why your two snakes are so uniquely unable to do what years of evolution have programmed them to do.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

I doubt that's the case. If they get a bad grab, I only intervene if the rat starts biting...I can't stand by and watch them be harmed. The reason I've come up with so far is that they just get so excited about feeding. These 2 big guys are absolute pigs, they will each just about anything as long as it's alive. The big one will take 2 medium rats in one meal every week if I let him. Obviously they didn't both reach 2100 and 2400g for no reason. It just seems that they are so eager to eat that they just strike the minute the prey hits the tub floor, without any prethought or aim. My others all stare at the prey for at least 10 seconds to recognize it, analyze it, and coil for a strike. I've watched them, I can actually see them judging where the head is before lunging...and they never have problems. But these 2 guys just nail it the minute the tub opens up. Once Java even lunged out of the tub before I put the rat in and grabbed it from the tongs. He constricted while hanging halfway out and I had to lift him back in.

Diego is 3 years old and Java is 11 years old...I've only had them for 2 months. I'm guessing that if they've been this bad at aiming their entire lives, then at some point they've been bitten just like the few times it almost happened here. So I suppose it isn't as big of a deal as I think, but I don't want them to get hurt under my care.

Maybe I should just let things be? How often do rat bites really pierce the skin?

 

[Leighanne]

EVERYBODYS right!

Wow! This is an interesting thread! An ya know what everybody has good points, everybody's right, and wrong. It just depends on what your comfortable with. I myself have one Snake, a Corn named Jakers. I waited YEARS to have him! I also just bought two Rats four days ago. I wanted them because they could eat just about anything, and I thought they were cute, and because I wanted a Ball Python next Spring. I figured having Rats if I ever had any escapees I would know where to find them! lol

They are really cute to! They can be litter trained, they are very intelligent, and cuddly. They will come when you call them, its amazing and I love having them! I meant to get two females but ended up with a female, and a male. Oops, but it works for me! I don't have a car and am beginning to like having the precaution I guess. Personally taking care of Jakes food, knowing where it comes from, and being able to control the size. I personally like bigger pinkies for Jake but not quit fuzzies.

My Fiancee and I had this very discussion just last night. Jakers moving up to fuzzies that can look at you, and having a Ball Python and feeding full grown. We wouldn't have many problems with pinkies because they can't look at you and be cute. I'm used to the frozen pinkies by now. The only problem I can see is not dying quick enough and getting in my freezer 20 minutes later and seeing babies wiggling around. That would be freaky! I am glad I got my Rats though. I really did need to know the realities of feeding a Ball Python, really think about it. I don't think that I could do it, and my Fiancee said he'd have to be drunk the first time, and sounded squeamish about it. Before he kept saying his whole plan was to drop them in a pillowcase, and throw against a rock or something. I have no clue what either of our consciouses could handle. I would feel really crappy if I had to kill any. REALLY crappy! And yes I would want to kill them the quickest way possible, or whatever. Jen is not wrong at all for feeding her Snakes though, no matter how she does it. I would be damned, over my dead body would any one of my babies not eat!

I hate Crickets, but Gex gets feed. Mostly by Jeff but if hes not there, then me. Some of us are very compassionate I guess and some are logical, and realistic. I have a couple at work who talked me into the Rats. The chick Nichole doesn't like everything I say. There is some tension. She has held my Jakers though, and he eats Rodents. What am I to do? She doesn't say anything to me about it but I can tell she thinks I'm Satan or something for wanting to feed Jake HoneyPuffs babies, or any other Snake. I have realized though arguing gets nowhere. We are just different, but not so much different.

I also love how everybody that hears about my Reptiles thinks I don't like cats or dogs, and that I am just weird. I live in an apartment and am not allowed to have cats or dogs. Heck my Landlord hates dogs because she knows a girl that was mauled by a golden retriever when she was just a baby, and was left badly scarred. I love them all though, and I mean ALL! I was raised on a couple farms, and have milked cows and had like 30 barn cats all the time. I was raised around cats more then anything else. People hate being with me when I see a kitten or a puppy! LOL I lied, no I hate gerbils, hamsters, and guinea pigs. I can not stand those things. Guinea pigs have course hair that itches, and I just don't like the rest. I like Rats though...I am just weird. Well all I know is that when I get my Ball Python I am getting from a Breeder and will be very picky. I want to try to stick with the ones that eat prefrozen, and I am aware that that can change easily. I am so tired of typing now. Theres my two cents, and theres no use in arguing about any of it.

 

[jglass38]

I can probably name one place Jamie is thinking of.
RedtailBoas.net
Just mention live feeding and all hell will break loose. Bort (Wes will know who I mean ) is the leader of the "you're a terrible keeper if you don't feed f/t". Pack mentality. They would tear you apart for posting something like this over there.

I actually wasn't referring to rtb.net but that is a place that NO ONE should frequent.

 

[jglass38]

I doubt that's the case. If they get a bad grab, I only intervene if the rat starts biting...I can't stand by and watch them be harmed. The reason I've come up with so far is that they just get so excited about feeding. These 2 big guys are absolute pigs, they will each just about anything as long as it's alive. The big one will take 2 medium rats in one meal every week if I let him. Obviously they didn't both reach 2100 and 2400g for no reason. It just seems that they are so eager to eat that they just strike the minute the prey hits the tub floor, without any prethought or aim. My others all stare at the prey for at least 10 seconds to recognize it, analyze it, and coil for a strike. I've watched them, I can actually see them judging where the head is before lunging...and they never have problems. But these 2 guys just nail it the minute the tub opens up. Once Java even lunged out of the tub before I put the rat in and grabbed it from the tongs. He constricted while hanging halfway out and I had to lift him back in.

Diego is 3 years old and Java is 11 years old...I've only had them for 2 months. I'm guessing that if they've been this bad at aiming their entire lives, then at some point they've been bitten just like the few times it almost happened here. So I suppose it isn't as big of a deal as I think, but I don't want them to get hurt under my care.

Maybe I should just let things be? How often do rat bites really pierce the skin?[/QUOTE

Maybe you should feed a smaller prey size. Problem solved. There is no reason that a Ball Python ever needs anything larger than a small rat. I've got females at 2400 grams that gain 100g/month average on small rats. Ball Pythons are not garbage disposal like Boas and by overfeeding them or pushing prey size, you can just about guarantee yourself a hunger strike at some point so they can "catch up".

 

[tstrenuous10]

i dont know what your feeding area looks like but could you put something between Java and dinner so he cannot see it and when the mouse is facing him, remove it and let him strike? maybe cardboard. if he strikes when he sees it he might catch the mouse off guard and get a better strike and also might start getting the head.

for this reason i decided to feed frozen but wonder if i should have gone live. dont have to dangle the mouse, drop it and go. my snake seems to be feeding regularly again.

 

[SPJ]

drop it and go

That is the WORST thig you could do. Uncontrolled live feeding. The drop it in method will almost guarentee your snake will get a bite from the prey item.

 

[the_deeb]

Here Jen - let me save you the time with this one

Jamie, I don't have access to any prey smaller than a small rat. No pet stores or anything within a 25 mile radius sells anything live smaller than a small rat, it's "against policy" or "state policy" or some crap like that. My rats have not started breeding yet. The only place I can get smaller live prey is from Apex Rodents, which is an hour and 15 minutes away in Austin. I talked to Cheryl before about ordering from them, but I'd be going down there every other week.
COLOR]

 

[jglass38]

Here Jen - let me save you the time with this one

Was that you disagreeing or agreeing?

 

[Cat_72]

I think the idea is that she can't get anything smaller.