Mike (Chameleon Condo) - Went back on his word.

[Uffern]

IMO, that is definitely your male on KS.  The darker markings are identical.

 

[CrittersNReps]

I did try to go to the ripoffs/complaints link on Kingsnake but it is not up to par as of yet (still says coming soon), so I went another route and emailed the Abuse Coordinator directly.  Hopefully, I will hear back from them soon with some good news.

Julie

 

[Darin Chappell]

Just FYI, I was not able to get the pic on kingsnake.com to come up for me today.

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

 

[CrittersNReps]

This is a reply via email I just received from Mike.

Subj: BIG PROBLEM
Date: 9/13/02 12:22:40 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


What you are doing is called SLANDER. You have no proof that this chameleon is a cross. You have no proof that the chameleon had a nose rub before he was shipped. You have no proof that this chameleon is sterile. You have nothing to back your claim that I said I would trade back. I said we could work something out. Since the cham is healthy I am not obligated to trade back, but I would if you picked up the shipping. The reason I said that was, you already went off on me saying I switched animals on you, that the nose rub was there before I shipped, and demanded that I pay shipping.

I think it's kinda funny that you said I misrepresented the chameleon I sent you, because I emailed Jim (Amazing Blue) to find out what kind of cham you sent me and he said it is a red bar. You told me that it's a blue. It even says that on your sit.



Subj:    Re: What kind of cham is this  
Date:    9/10/02 4:42<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>9 PM Pacific Daylight Time  
From:    AmzgBlueReptiles  
To:    CHAMELEONCONDO  
 


Mike,
Sorry for the late reply. I can't say for sure that he was mine but he is definitely an Ambanja.  Could be from Mega's bloodline (red bar Ambanja).


Jim Nozaki
AMAZING BLUE REPTILES



You told me that both the male and female are virgins, now you are saying I wont trade back because I'm waiting for eggs.

Since there is no truth to the claims you have stated agents me and my company, and you don't have any proof that I went back on my word, and you are spreading your OPINION as fact, you leave me no choice but to turn this matter over to my attorney. If your attacks don't stop IMMEDIATELY you will be taken to court for Slander and Defamation of character.






Mike
Chameleon Condo

 

[Lucy Howard]

WOW, i usually don't post here, to much heat.
But this entire thread is making me VERY!!!! wary of ever purchasing online again.
I could get a inferiour animal, that most people would AGREE has had a previous injury (certainly looks that way), and is not like it was represented....and then its TO BAD , cause you can't PROVE ANYTHING and wouldn't pick up shipping every which way!!!!!! and if you complain, you get threatened with court action.
That is truly sad.
Thank you webslave for providing this site, i think if i ever purchase online again, it will be ONLY from the 100% proven over and over reputable breeders.
Even if you purchase anything at all, animal or not, that arrives damaged, misrepresented or in any way not to satisfaction, you usually have the right to return and reverse the transaction...And to expect a buyer to pay for all shipping charges is just ridiculous, when it is the buyer who didn't get what they paid for.
Well, congrats to Mike, looks like you made a killer deal.
Sorry Julie, looks like you got taken.

 

[CrittersNReps]

This was my reply to Mike.

Subj: Re: BIG PROBLEM
Date: 9/13/02 12:52:57 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Mike,

Here is my email from Jim about the Ambanja's you now seem to be questioning on my behalf.  Nice try, but they are blues.  I do believe there is such a thing as a countersuit also, right?

Julie

Subj: Ambanjas
Date: 2/7/02 8<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>2<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>2 AM Central Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps
File: 115-1591_rkb63.ZIP (534858 bytes) DL Time (48000 bps): <3 minutes



Hi July,
Sorry it took so long in getting the photos you want. I'm sorry but I spoke to a lot of people yesterday and also sent out a lot of photos so I may not have remembered quite what you were looking for but I believe you wanted near adult size Ambanja Panthers.

I have included 2 photos of male Ambanjas. The first photo is of a blue bar Ambanja that is app. 10 months old. The second photo is of his brother showing less blue and more red. They are both priced at $XXX each. I have included a photo of an unrelated female Ambanja. They are usually priced at $XXX but if bought as a pair, the female's price would be $XXX.

Shipping usually runs $40 (includes insulated box and heating packs) and they are sent via UPS Next Day Service to your door by 10:30AM.

Preferred payment method is MO or Cashier's check but credit cards can be accepted through Paypal.com (free for you to sign up with Paypal but you must be verified with them).

Please let me know either way whether you would like to purchase any of them or not. Thank you very much for your interest.

Jim Nozaki
AMAZING BLUE REPTILES

 

[Casey Hulse]

No proof that the nose rub was there?? Duh.. How could anyone furnish proof that the damage as not caused by opening the box? However, common sense and a little knowledge of reptile health is all that is needed to tell that it appears to be an old nose rub. Nearly 100% of the posters here, including me, feel that you have pulled a fast one on a customer. And now you are threatening to sue her?? Good luck.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Julie,

I would not even let his idle threats worry you.  I have had customers of mine tell me that when they talk to him all he does is slander me and talk bad about me, my company, and my animals.  For those of you that would like to see the situation that happened between Mike and myself please follow the  link below.
   previous thread


In the e-mail that Mike posted from Jim, it does not say anything that it is a red bar, but </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Could be from Mega's bloodline (red bar Ambanja).
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> It is obvious that He is not going to make good with you and settle this problem.  unforunately I would suggest you chalk it up, mark him down as a person not to do business with again and try and forget about it. I am not saying this is what shoud be done, but obviously this is the only thing left you can do.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

also on another note, The nose rub on the Chameleon was NOT a fresh day old nose rub.  Nose rubs do not turn black for at least 3-4 days when they scab over and start to heal. That rub is older than a couple days. ALso Mike I thought you said you have pictures that you took at THAT animal just before you shipped it? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I took pics just for her (after we made the deal), thats how I know that the black spots on his nose are new. It either happened during shipping or in her care.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> I know I have not seen them posted and I am sure I am not the only one that would like to see these supposed pics of the animal that shows it did nto have a nose rub.

 

[Justyn]

Ok, let me clear out the whole Panther Chameleon issue.  Saying that each locality is the same in regards to having the same genetics that make it the same species is a lie.  The truth is biologists do not know if different Panther Chameleon localities are separate species or even subspecies.  Too little is known about them at this time to dive into the F. pardalis complex and say they are all one in the same.  Panther chameleons have shown to have much variation in regards to separate localities in regards to their size, coloration, number of eggs being produced, morphological differences, and rate of growth.  Panther chameleons could easily represent separate species, and many herpetologists claim they do!  So yes, the panther that she has could be infertile.  We do not understand enough about the F. pardalis complex to say it can't be.  Localities can be traced back with DNA research looking into chromosome B with very detailed accuracy.  Either way even if the panther does turn out to be fertile, he now has a lower market value because Julie can not prove for certain what morph he is or if he is a cross between two localities.  Mike ripped her off knowing or not, he traded her something she did not receive.  I would not stress the black spots, but I would stress a possible cross.  Whatever the case, Mike did not reach his end of the deal.  If Mike does not fix this soon I am afraid he will be out of a lot of future customers, including me!

 

[Pennebaker]

unbelievable!
Can we say "business suicide"?
Gee, let's think how successful other "slander" lawsuits over incidents on this website were, lol.  Successful in showing the market who are the people in this business to stay away from!
So what, it is ok for Mike to come on the boi when he has what he sees as a problem, but oh, come on here about him and it's lawsuit time.

I think this guy is trying to take advantage and bully you Julie.  
You seem to have all of your ducks in a row.  Nice try of him to turn it around and say you sold him misrepresented animals.  Good thing you have the emails to prove it, not to mention stunning animals.

It is a shame that incidents like this can really scare people away from internet business.  And that a business can get away with pulling this on someone.  His guarantee says "health" not including nose rub, missing limbs, deformations, etc etc...
could you not argue that nose rub is a health issue.  If he needs silvadine for healing purposes, that is vet prescribed.  The possibility of infection?  shedding issues from the rub?  I dont know, sounds like some health issues to me.  If I'm not mistaken, dermatologists need medical training, right?

Anyways, once again I'm sorry you have to go through this Julie.  Sounds like you have a lot of people on your side.  

Dana

 

[Darin Chappell]

Uh, Mike . . .

Technically speaking, one must first HAVE a character in order for it to be defamed.  Thus far, on the BOI, you've shown no evidence of having any, in my opinion.  Therefore, I think you're pretty safe from defamation.

Just trade back with her, already!  If your animal is what you're trying to convince her of, shouldn't you be happy to get him back along with your cash just to get her off your back?  C'mon, man!

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

 

[alfon76]

Hi Julie:

  I have been reading this thread for the past few minutes and all I can say is that you are right about everything you are saying and expecting.

1- I can tell you from experience that the injury to the chameleon you have now is not a fresh one that could have happened during shipping. When skin turns black it is usually a sign of necrosis (dead tissue) and this doesn't happen in less than 24 hours (it takes a few days at the least). That is definitely a flaw and a health issue. The fact that it doesn't seem as a life threatening injury doesn't mean it is not a flaw and a health issue. I believe many of the other fellow herpers that have posted went into many details about this as well.

2-  The chameleon you have looks like a crossed locale and if Mike bought them from the same guy who imported them from Canada in the first place, then there is no doubt in my mind that they are crossed. I read the posts that the guy who imported them had in Kingsnake for a long time and he was trying to sell one as a Blue Bar/ Purple Ambanja when it was obviously not a pure Ambanja. I have kept chameleons (mostly panthers) for nearly 8 years and I can tell that the chameleon you have is not a pure Ambanja.  

3-  Slander? Defamation of character? Mike, then that means that you did the same thing to Rob when you posted about him a while back and he should take YOU to court. This is a place where people share their experiences with sellers or buyers and we try to improve the hobby. This is the place where you read your errors and fix them so that your business continues to flourish. You need to return those animals to Julie ASAP since she is an unsatisfied customer and you traded her a faulty chameleon in more than one way.

4-  I looked at the pics and at the patterns in the chameleon posted by Mike in Kingsnake and I have to say that it looks to be your male Julie. Mike, what in the world are you doing? Please tell me that you are not selling her male in the middle of all this that is happening especially when you know she deserves to have her male back!!!!!!!!! I mean, do the right thing.

5-  Mike, in your website you say that you specialize in Nosy Be and Ambanja chameleons. If you specialize in them, wouldn't you know a cross when you see one? Also, Julie has the e-mails sent to her by Jim Nozaki where he describes the males as Blue Bar Ambanjas. You were the one that replied to her ad and you were the one who offered a trade because you did not want to pay her what she wanted. Seems to me you wanted to unload an injured, crossed-locale panther as soon as possible. Julie had pics available of her animals before you contacted her and if you saw the pics you MUST have seen that he was a RED BAR and not a blue bar because it is extremely obvious.

I think I posted regarding most of the things that bothered me from this thread. I believe that if someone should be taken to court is Mike for stealing from Julie. Mike, you can make this right and try to save a little dignity. You are not going to lose a lot by returning those animals. If anything you should be mad at your distributor for selling you crossed locales (if it is true that you did not know he was a cross) and not at Julie for wanting her adult, perfect Ambanja pair back.

Ivan Alfonso

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

In case some of you don't Know Ivan,  He is a very well respected Herp Veterinarian from Orlando Florida.  He is breeding some awesome Locale's of Panthers and does a great service to Chameleons and keepers across the Continent.

 

[CrittersNReps]

Again, I would like to thank everyone for their replies so far, and support in this matter helping to clearup and clarify things.  I would also like to personally thank Ivan for posting on this matter, giving another vets opinion, or should I say, clarification of what I have said in this matter to be true.

As of this post, I have not heard from Mike in regards to possibly settling this matter in any form, since his last email to me was posted here.  I would like to clear up some things Mike mentioned in that last email to me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
You told me that both the male and female are virgins, now you are saying I wont trade back because I'm waiting for eggs.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Mike, yes, I did tell you they were virgins on the phone, but I did also tell you at that time that "I had just recently put them together and that I wasn't sure if they may have bred or not yet.  That I did not actually see them breed."  But as we both know, it could very well be possible they have bred.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
You told me that it's a blue. It even says that on your sit.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Mike, yes, they are Blue Ambanja's.  As I even posted them in the ad as a 1.1 Adult pair of Blue Ambanja's for sale.  They are blue's as you will see in the email from Jim to me that I posted previously and sent directly to you via email, saying the pics he was sending were of blues, in which I picked my male from along with the pic of the available unrelated female he sent me that I did acquire from Jim.  I never posted saying, nor have I even said, they were Blue Bar Ambanja's, but simply "Blue Ambanja's" and you never asked if they were Blue Bars as you had already viewed several pics of them showing they are not Blue Bars.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
You have nothing to back your claim that I said I would trade back.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Mike, you are right.  I don't have anything to back my claim on this, but simply my word against yours about our phone conversation where you said you would.  How convenient for you, huh?  This, I had already pointed out to a fellow herper/friend before and after your call to me, whereas, I was wondering why you were calling instead of emailing me about this and the possibilty of you covering your a$$ by calling, instead of replying via email where it would be in writing, since I had already quoted things you told me via email back to you, before you called.  I guess now, we never even spoke, huh?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I said we could work something out. Since the cham is healthy I am not obligated to trade back, but I would if you picked up the shipping.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

This was not part of the one and only phone conversation we had (when you called me), after I received your male in this condition (whereas I was very upset), when you said you would reverse the deal but suggested I give him a few days to see what happens with his snout.  I truely never read anything in your emails after this, saying we could work something out either, but that you demanded that I pay all the shipping across the board from start to finish with sending your male back to you, to get my pair back.  You sent your male to me in this condition without being up front with me from the start, in which case, I never would have accepted him as a trade from the begginning knowing about the rub.  And now on top of this, since being made aware he is not pure Ambanja, decreases his value on the market and in our trade.

To all who may have iquired or wondered about the link posted earlier for the picture of the male posted on Kingsnake for sale by Mike (which I truely believe is my male).  I do believe that Kingsnake has honored my request to pull the ad until this matter is resolved.  If this is the case, I would like to thank Kingsnake for doing so.  Thank you!

Julie

 

[Uffern]

When I looked at the pics, unless his other male is actually indentical to yours, ie. the same exact pattern, then it was most definitely your male.

 

[captivepanther]

I very rarely post here, but a post was made on one of the cham forums with a link to this site, so I had to check it out.

Mike,
   In my opinion Julie has every right to want to trade back. If she is not satisfied with what she recieved then she has the right to trade back. However I do not think you (Mike) should have to pay shipping for her to receive her animals. But, where do you get $120 for shipping.......Delta Dash doesn't even cost that much. $30-$50 is a much more accurate price per box....not animal. Also, in my opinion the animal you sent her has signs of an old injury, it isn't one that would bother me too much, but since I mostly deal with wild caughts I am use to bumps and bruises (hell....if they're breathing I'm happy). Also, the animal you sent Julie in my OPINION is a hybrid, along with a few other animals I have seen you put up for sale, but that is just my OPINION.....nothing professional about it. Come on man.....save face and trade back.......what do you have to lose. With such great color you should have no problem selling him. Hell, if you like him so much why don't you keep him yourself? .......just a thought!
Paul LaFaver

 

[David Reid]

Here is my $0.02 worth.   We all learn a lesson the hard way at some time in our life.   I am not saying that you should not pursue getting your animals back, but here is my advice for the future:

If you have awesome animals, sell them, do not trade them.   If you get a trade offer, then you MUST have the person sending you animals send FIRST, with 48 hrs to look them over etc.   If they will not send first, then offer to SELL  to them, if they do not have the cash, keep you advertisement up and take other offers.  

I shipped first in a deal with Ben Seigel, but Ben has a GREAT reputation, and am VERY cautious when I do online business, ESPECIALLY trades.

My rule: sell first, trade second and only if they send first!!


Dave

 

[CrittersNReps]

Well, once again, as of the time of this post, I still have not heard a peep from Mike via email, phone or this thread.  So I am asking you, Mike, what are your intentions in this matter?  Are you going to make things right by reversing this deal as you said you would, or in some other form, like paying the remainder of my asking price ($350) and I send you your male back to settle this?  I will still be loosing out with your paying me the remainder of my asking price of $350 since your male is not worth the other $300 in trade or even $250 as you stated since he is a hybrid, but I am willing to deal with that if you settle this.  I will let you know now Mike, I will not let this rest and will keep it fresh in everyones mind until you settle this matter with me.  I do not take being burned lightly.  The male you sent me is useless now, since I had intentions that you were made well aware of in my email to you before the trade, of my breeding him later down the line when I was able to acquire another female to do so upon being able to focus more on my panther breeding project.  Yes, he may make a nice flawed pet and be colorful hybrid, but this is not what I traded for and you know it.  C'mon Mike, I'm waiting on you to settle this and the thread will slowly die away and you may save some face, so to say.  I did not tarnish your rep here.  You did, by going back on your word.  I simply brought my story of a bad trade with you to this board, letting everyone know of this trade and of you going back on your word.  So, once again, what is it going to be Mike?

Dave,

My intentions from the beginning were to just sell them, even when Mike contacted me via email and then via phone.  I guess having a love for Ambanja panthers (true Ambanja), whereas it took me a long time to acquire the pair I had and not really wanting to give them up totally, that when Mike repeatedly mentioned trading a male (a red phase Ambanja) of his plus cash for my pair, knowing that I would be able to acquire another female down the line to breed with the male Mike would be sending me, I gave in and thought it was a blessing.  This is the way I looked at it after struggling with a decision.  Now, I know differently.  I usually don't do trades, but knowing the general rule of trades, I would have requested the person wanting the trade to send 1st, but he was also sending cash up front and I thought that I would be in the wrong for requesting that he send 1st.  Also, knowing his name has been out there and no bad posts were made about him and his animals that I was aware of, I trusted that I was getting what we agreed upon in the trade.  But as you can see now, in one of my previous posts, I will never do this again, especially with someone that I have never dealt with before.

Julie

 

[captivepanther]

Julie,
    A few comments sort of in Mike's defense......
You did see pictures of the animal before you traded him for it right? From the pictures I have seen it was pretty obvious in my opinion that it was a hybrid. So, you should not be holding that against him since he sent you pics. Second, you really have no way of knowing for sure if it is actually a hybrid.
   Also, if you were planning on using the animal for future breeding then why is the nose rub bothering you so much? In due time the scar will probably completely dissappear, if not oh well. But anyhow......it still comes down to the fact that you were not happy with the animal you recieved and you should be able to trade back if you so wish. But, personally I do not think Mike should be held responsible for any shipping on the trade back since the animal was not really misrepresented, although it may not have been represented in full. A little nose rub in no way affects the health of the animal or any future breeding and wether or not it is a hybrid should have been determined before you decided to trade. Good luck to both of you....sounds like you will need it!
Paul