Mile High Herps (Susan Newman) - IBD Infected Snake

[BWSmith]

I read that thread before the purchase. But I chalked it up to a mis-sexed animal. That was definitely an error in judgment on my part.

I believe that my reputation and credentials speak for themselves as far as the accuracy of anything I state here. However, my offer shall remain for an independent and impartial third party here to be privy to most information with a written agreement that it is used for verification purposes only and not to be made public as much is key to the legal action in progress.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I read that thread before the purchase. But I chalked it up to a mis-sexed animal. That was definitely an error in judgment on my part.

I would have agreed with your initial assumption as well. The similarities of not addressing the problem on that thread until others became involved and what has been posted on your side thus far maybe noteworthy

I believe that my reputation and credentials speak for themselves as far as the accuracy of anything I state here. However, my offer shall remain for an independent and impartial third party here to be privy to most information with a written agreement that it is used for verification purposes only and not to be made public as much is key to the legal action in progress.

I am absolutely not questioning your reputation. I for one appreciate the fact that you would not withhold this type of information. This is a serious charge and she should be given the opportunity to respond and add her side regardless of someone’s reputation or credentials.

 

[BWSmith]

I certainly did not mean to imply that you were. I would also like to hear any response on her part. Particularly since the only reply I have gotten from her is after the first email informing her of the situation where she stated "The boa I sold you (known as Mattie) was in perfect health when she left my home", which pathology reports prove this to be false.

 

[DThomas]

I believe that my reputation and credentials speak for themselves as far as the accuracy of anything I state here. However, my offer shall remain for an independent and impartial third party here to be privy to most information with a written agreement that it is used for verification purposes only and not to be made public as much is key to the legal action in progress.

Feel free to send anything to me. Part of my real world job is protecting confidentiality and I am well aquainted with the legal system. You have my word nothing will be made public.

[email protected]

 

[Casey Hulse]

I am curious. What was the snakes body weight? Did she have good body weight/length? I am wondering if the problem feeding her was "long term" or more recent. Thanx.

 

[BWSmith]

I am curious. What was the snakes body weight? Did she have good body weight/length? I am wondering if the problem feeding her was "long term" or more recent. Thanx.

If you return to page 4 of this thread, I have a rather long post with the animal's history (set apart as a quote). Included is the length and weight upon arrival and the weight again when antibiotic treatment began. She was a bit on the thin side, but not enough to be overly worried about. I chalked this up to Susan feeding a 5' snake medium rats, whereas I would have preferred it be on large.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I am not a boid person, not for a couple of decades anyway. From what I know of IBD, it is exceedingly likely that this snake was infected when you got it. From your own intimate knowledge of everything that you did with this animal since you acquired it, I have no doubts as to how certain you are. Wandering a little bit off of your specific situation, and more just to get your opinion since you are now saddled with this problem, let me pose what I know and a question. Recomended quarantine is 3-6 months in much of the literature, although without bloodwork, a brief three months would seem to be tempting the devil. Other literature suggests that the time frame from exposure to manifestation can be as little as one month, or possibly up to one year. While your situation was fortunately manifested relatively quickly, and well within your quarantine protocols, thus leaving little room for doubt, do you know of any standards within the hobby or industry that might lend themselves to a time window of responsibility? ie. Your case is strong because of it only taking 71 days, and your quarantine procedures support your conclusions. But if it had been 120-150 days, your case would lose merit, although many arrows would still point back to Susan. With lab work costing around $200, is that a likely way to go with newly arrived animals where the value of the animal, and/or the collection it is going into, would justify the expense? It seems that Susan is trying to hide behind the time line, with "it was healthy when it left here", which is kind of lame in ignoring the nature of IBD. Should this go to court, besides your having to decide to take on the expense of recovering $915 (?), and her deciding to bear the cost of defending herself vs. settlement, I am sure that both the time-line and decisions to not have lab-work done sooner will be raised. Trust that I am finding no fault what-so-ever with your actions, but her attorney will certainly sing a more sour note to you. If nothing else, the heads-up to all who may have had contact with her, or need an IBD reminder, was much needed.

 

[BWSmith]

I am not a boid person, not for a couple of decades anyway. From what I know of IBD, it is exceedingly likely that this snake was infected when you got it. From your own intimate knowledge of everything that you did with this animal since you acquired it, I have no doubts as to how certain you are. Wandering a little bit off of your specific situation, and more just to get your opinion since you are now saddled with this problem, let me pose what I know and a question. Recomended quarantine is 3-6 months in much of the literature, although without bloodwork, a brief three months would seem to be tempting the devil. Other literature suggests that the time frame from exposure to manifestation can be as little as one month, or possibly up to one year. While your situation was fortunately manifested relatively quickly, and well within your quarantine protocols, thus leaving little room for doubt, do you know of any standards within the hobby or industry that might lend themselves to a time window of responsibility? ie. Your case is strong because of it only taking 71 days, and your quarantine procedures support your conclusions. But if it had been 120-150 days, your case would lose merit, although many arrows would still point back to Susan. With lab work costing around $200, is that a likely way to go with newly arrived animals where the value of the animal, and/or the collection it is going into, would justify the expense? It seems that Susan is trying to hide behind the time line, with "it was healthy when it left here", which is kind of lame in ignoring the nature of IBD. Should this go to court, besides your having to decide to take on the expense of recovering $915 (?), and her deciding to bear the cost of defending herself vs. settlement, I am sure that both the time-line and decisions to not have lab-work done sooner will be raised. Trust that I am finding no fault what-so-ever with your actions, but her attorney will certainly sing a more sour note to you. If nothing else, the heads-up to all who may have had contact with her, or need an IBD reminder, was much needed.

Sorry to quote such a large post, but it seems that on the BOI multiple posts are often finished while replying to one. I just want to keep it clear to what I am responding to as it will take me some time to type a response.

Those are excellent points. The cases of IBD affecting an animal within a month or two is limited to pythons species as far as I can tell from my research. Blood tests are actually not conclusive as all they can check for is a white cell count of over 30,000 (if memory serves). There are new methods of detecting in snakes outlined in a recent article by Michael M. Garner, DVM, Dipl ACVP and James T. Raymond, DVM, MS, Dipl ACVP in Exotic DVM Magazine. According to this literature, the most effective means of detection in a live snake is a wedge liver biopsy. Other methods outlined include cutaneous or gastric biopsy. However, all of these tests are very invasive (cutaneous to a lesser extent) and not feasible upon acquisition of all new animals. However, any animals that show symptoms of a major disorder are routinely tested and necropsies performed with specific tests for IBD and Cryptosporidium. My in house clinic leaves me capable of performing almost any nonsurgical procedure, however, all necropsies and pathology is performed by licensed professionals.

I have also been made aware that IDB is capable of infecting snakes of Crotalus and Agkistrodon. While I am still trying to track down the specific case studies (Bothriechis marchi is the only viperid that is listed on most literature), this causes me great concern because of my large collection of Crotalids in addition to boids.

Please let me know if I missed addressing something.

 

[BWSmith]

Am I safe to assume that someone has notified her of this thread?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey B.W., thanks for the info. Let me preface again by saying that I believe that Susan is culpable in this case. given the facts as currently presented, at least from an ethical standpoint. From a legal standpoint, fairness and ethics don't always apply. I believe that you alluded to an unrelated breeding loan that you had set up that included an IBD clause. I also strongly suspect that many of the larger breeders may have their own as well, and undoubtedly there will be major similarities included in all, outlining timelines of responsibility, means of diagnosis, allocation of costs, etc. I don't know if you had one with Susan, whether it was practical, whether its information that you need to sit on right now, etc. Whether you are actually able to ever recover anything is beyond my ability to predict, but at least any discerning breeder will find this thread and be forewarned. Perhaps a generic IBD clause for any boid purchase contract is already floating around out there, and if not, one or more will eventually surface with time. Where warranted by the parties involved, such a clause could then be included in any deal, and hopefully lead to an easier resolution when a problem like this arises. Its not too late for Susan to stop the bleeding on this one, although admittedly she has already spilt quite a bit. B.W., I have to applaud all of your protocols and actions here.

 

[Zoo Supply]

Hey Jim, I use Dr. Mark Wilson as my vet for my animals. he used to do a lot of work with IBD, and he has even told me he is relatively sure of the shipment of boas that came in that brought IBD with it. As for what he told me as the possible "incubation" period of this virus, he told me that if I want to make sure that my animals didn't get it, he would quarantine for a year and a half.
Now how realistic is this? not at all for most of us. I know I have some stuff coming in that wont be bred for another year or year and a half. I am starting quarantining this stuff within a few weeks, and it will be in quarantine for over a year. I am raising them up to breed so This is no big deal, but I highly doubt that as a retail store, or online retailer I would be able to afford to quarantine everything that comes in for that long.
TOM

 

[Greg Riso]

One Doubt About Proof

First off a note to B. W. Smith. I believe your full first name must appear in your posts, not just an initial, or they could be deleted. Now on to the topic.
Through the use of a qualified expert witnesses (your vet for one) it may be possible to convince a judge the animal came in with the disease. I have no doubt you may be as meticulous in quarantining animals as you say, however, I expect the defense will try and say otherwise. Of course they will insist the disease was contracted at your facility so therefore Susan is not responsible. My question is how can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the animal was NOT infected by you? I am not saying it was, but all anyone can go on is what you SAY your excellence in quarantine procedures are. I've been to facilities where the people think they are experts in herps yet the conditions of their cages and animals I've seen are deplorable (filthy water dishes, feces throughout the cages, mites, improper temps and humidity, etc.). If you asked them about their husbandry skills they'd tell you they're the best. Of course they are way off but in their mind there's no problem. Get my point?

 

[Rockford]

Greg,

BW is his name and that is what he goes by as an author. I don't think he is violating any rules here.

BTW thank you BW, I received your book yesterday and so far it's a great read.

Brett

 

[BWSmith]

First off a note to B. W. Smith. I believe your full first name must appear in your posts, not just an initial, or they could be deleted. Now on to the topic.
Through the use of a qualified expert witnesses (your vet for one) it may be possible to convince a judge the animal came in with the disease. I have no doubt you may be as meticulous in quarantining animals as you say, however, I expect the defense will try and say otherwise. Of course they will insist the disease was contracted at your facility so therefore Susan is not responsible. My question is how can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the animal was NOT infected by you? I am not saying it was, but all anyone can go on is what you SAY your excellence in quarantine procedures are. I've been to facilities where the people think they are experts in herps yet the conditions of their cages and animals I've seen are deplorable (filthy water dishes, feces throughout the cages, mites, improper temps and humidity, etc.). If you asked them about their husbandry skills they'd tell you they're the best. Of course they are way off but in their mind there's no problem. Get my point?

You are correct that my husbandry and experience shall be on trial in order to prove that the animal was not infected at my facility. In order to address this, I can explain a bit more about me. This is not meant in any way to sound like arrogance. I have many letters of commendation and recommendation from Department of Natural Resources, Nature Centers, and the like. I am a licensed wildlife exhibitor with Department of Natural Resources for native nonvenomous reptiles, native venomous reptiles, and the American Alligator. This alone requires inspections from a DNR Biologist. I am often called upon by nature centers to aid them in reptile rehabilitation and medical treatment. And I have statements from a veterinarian and wildlife director for DNR attesting to my experience, healthcare, and husbandry. And as stated previously, I routinely submit animals that die for necropsies and pathology reports. Therefore, I have written third party documentation that IBD has never been present in my collection. My veterinarian (herp specific) has also inspected my entire collection on numerous occasions at my facility. The most recent was a couple weeks prior to the IBD infected animal arriving. My veterinarian is preparing a statement regarding this case, the fact that IBD has never been present in my collection, and his opinion of my experience and husbandry.

Also, I just received another document while typing this response that is proof positive that my collection was free of IBD exposure prior to this animal arriving. I realize that this is an ambiguous statement. However, this is the most damaging piece of evidence against Susan Newman and it will not be shared publicly.

That being said, I am going to forward relevant documentation to Dennis Thomas this evening so that he may verify:
1. All that I have stated thus far is accurate
2. The pathology report is genuine
3. The timeline is accurate
4. An attorney IS already involved (in case she thinks I am bluffing)
5. That the proof I eluded to regarding being IBD free prior to this is accurate (and damaging to her defense)

I certainly would want to risk this thread being deleted over a name issue in the TOS. However, as the purpose of this rule is to make people identifiable and accountable, I feel the continuing to use B. W. Smith upholds the intent of the rule as very few people are aware of my full given name. B. W. Smith is how I am known professionally inside and outside of the herp community, it is the name my book is published under, it is my username on each site i am registered on, and is the name used on most of my financial accounts. However, if the administration would like my Christian name listed, that can be done. I must warn you however that it sounds like I am in the Witness Relocation Program and needed an easy name to remember. It is also the same name of a rather unscrupulous individual within the reptile industry of which i do not wish to be confused with.

 

[DThomas]

Your use of your name has been brought up before. I consider it a non-issue as you are known professionally as B.W. Smith and just about everyone knows who you are. If you went by something else I believe that would cause MORE confusion. IMO, you have met the spirit of the rule.

 

[Greg Riso]

That Works For Me

Well, it sounds like you've got all of your ducks in a row and I'm glad you elaborated on everything. I'd hate to be in Susan's shoes come trial if it comes to that. I hope she doesn't let it go that far and settles everything with you.
I for one have never had any luck trying to deal with her in the past and it's just as well I didn't from what's happened to you. I wish you good luck.

 

[coyote]

Am I safe to assume that someone has notified her of this thread?

I made the attempt today. Perhaps we will find out soon if she received it.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey B.W. I am with you ethically throughout your entire explanation, and agree that the ethical thing would have been for Susan to refund your money as soon as the problem was identified. However, and again we move to the hypothetical, without a specific clause in the TOS, or with regard to this deal, am I wrong in having the opinion that there is very little legal claim to be made for an animal that was still acceptable within whatever her normal TOS were? I realize that if she warranteed the animal as healthy at time of sale, and knew it was not, then you have a case, providing you can prove that she knew it was not. Again, as the hypothetical devil's advocate, but if a buyer is aware of the existence of IBD within the hobby, and has done deals in the past where IBD clauses were included, but did not request one here, might that be a critical oversite? You may be covered on all these points, based on communications that are not currently shared for legal reasons, but as your case moves forward, probably a few of the readers here will take better precautions themselves in future deals. As Tom has mentioned, some vets suggest that a safe quarantine period is 18 months, which I realize is an extraordinary burden. But with each passing day, whether it be 71 days as in your case, or the possibility of an animal being infected but surviving 200-300 days in quarantine before succumbing, the burden of responsibility is harder to pin back on the original seller, unless there's a specific IBD clause that covers such a time frame. With no clause, the legal time frame may be very brief.
As a parallel example, within chameleons, as they are so fragile, very few sellers warranty beyond 7 days. Our "health" or "satisfaction" warranty is basically no more than a very finite time for the buyer to decide if its not healthy, or not satisfied, and notify the seller. After seven days, it can die of a chronic condition, and while there might be an ethical claim, there is very little basis for a legal one.
I do not mean to undermine your claim. I feel that Susan is ethically liable. But I would like to pick the Fauna community's brain about how they would address, and possibly better avoid, the current quagmire. IBD is not going away, and without a cure, may only decimate many more collections.

 

[Jim O]

Jim,

You make excellent points which is why I asked BW if he believed that Susan had knowingly sent him a sick snake. That changes the equation in my opinion. If she was "liquidating" her collection because of chronic illness then it seems to be that she is on the hook, and not just ethically. Proving it may be a different matter.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

First off a note to B. W. Smith. I believe your full first name must appear in your posts, not just an initial, or they could be deleted. Now on to the topic.
Through the use of a qualified expert witnesses (your vet for one) it may be possible to convince a judge the animal came in with the disease. I have no doubt you may be as meticulous in quarantining animals as you say, however, I expect the defense will try and say otherwise. Of course they will insist the disease was contracted at your facility so therefore Susan is not responsible. My question is how can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the animal was NOT infected by you? I am not saying it was, but all anyone can go on is what you SAY your excellence in quarantine procedures are. I've been to facilities where the people think they are experts in herps yet the conditions of their cages and animals I've seen are deplorable (filthy water dishes, feces throughout the cages, mites, improper temps and humidity, etc.). If you asked them about their husbandry skills they'd tell you they're the best. Of course they are way off but in their mind there's no problem. Get my point?

Greg, the best way to remove all doubt will be the liver biopsy testing. That is the most reliable way to date. I know that the University of Florida is working on blood testing, but funding for a project like that is limited and will take a while.

I would hope that other's who have purchased animals will come forward and post their experience with this seller, as scary at it is, the buying public could be facing a cross contamination night mare.

Has anyone contacted Susan?? Or heard from her??