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Mile High Herps (Susan Newman) - IBD Infected Snake

I have never heard of an "IBD Clause" for a sale, but I think that it is something that needs to be addressed in a manner that is fair to both parties.

As for the validity of a legal claim, Dennis Thomas has been emailed viable information and should be able to comment. Given the evidence I have, both myself and my attorney feel that I have a strong case against her. It is difficult to elaborate without naming specific charges.
 
BWSmith said:
That being said, I am going to forward relevant documentation to Dennis Thomas this evening so that he may verify:
1. All that I have stated thus far is accurate
2. The pathology report is genuine
3. The timeline is accurate
4. An attorney IS already involved (in case she thinks I am bluffing)
5. That the proof I eluded to regarding being IBD free prior to this is accurate (and damaging to her defense)
1. Verified
2. Verified
3. Verified
4. Verified
5. Verified.


NOTICE: Anyone emailing, PM'ing, or communicating with me in any form requesting I forward/divulge information will be ignored. Repeated attempts will most likely have the offender suspended. DO NOT even ask.
 
Hey BW, maybe it was a breeding loan situation where you mentioned some kind of an IBD clause, and I apologize if I mis-characterized it. Just playing "outhouse attorney". Surely the legal decisions on how to pursue this are very much discussed by you and your attorney, although the BOI usually does its best to pick things apart in a layman's kind of way. Many of us have had to deal with legal issues involving money and reptiles, etc, and bring some knowledge to the table. Many of us would have a genuine interest in how you make the claim in a situation such as this, which statutes would apply, etc. I also realize that your situation may hinge on one or two specific communications, that although others of us may some day find ourselves in a similar circumstance, would not be identical in crucial areas. So if and when you are able to shed some light, and it may be a while for reasons you have stated, there's an interested audience out here. Thank you for your candidness.
 
There was no IBD stipulation in the breeding loan contract. However, I felt obligated to tell him the situation as soon as I was aware and advise strongly against the breeding loan for the safety of his collection. He agreed. Had the pathology report not come for a couple weeks, the male would have been shipped to him and possibly infected his collection (including T+ Albinos).

Thank you for verifying the information Dennis. Given that this has been confirmed, I hope that she will contact me regarding an alternate solution now that she knows that legal action is truly in preparation and that it is not an empty threat.
 
Sorry you have to endure such an unfortunate experiance BW. I hope all works out well for you.

You don't need me to re-confirm that you are handling it like the pro that you are. I would have to side with you based on the evidence at hand.

I have emailed Susan and explained somewhat, and gave a link back to this thread. Also urged her to get in contact with you as well.
I guess time will tell.

Best of luck on everything.

Ciao,
Rick
 
gmherps said:
Good luck man, I hope you fry her arse in court!!

I certainly hope that it does not reach that point. I would much rather resolve this in a civil manner outside of legal action. But like my dad always said, "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst". So while I hope she will remedy the situation, I will continue on a legal course as I believe that she will force me to utilize such action.
 
Today's Ad by MHH

Well, here's an honest statement posted in a recent ad at Kingsnake.by Susan. Check out her last line LOL.

1.3 2003 Het ANERY/STRIPE/POS ALBINO
Ship Lower 48
Posted by MHH (Contact Me!) on October 21, 2005 at 21:29:15
Registered PetHobbyist User since 2002-07-13
View Ads (1) | This Category Only (1)
Send this ad to a friend! Click Here!


Click on thumbnails to view fullsize in a new window

Tame as can be. Eating FT rats weekly. Het for stripe and anery and pos het for Albino. Clean and light.
$275 each OR... save $100 and take all for $1000 and i will pay shipping too!! These wont last long.
 
She has not had enough time to perform liver biopsies to check for IBD. And yet, she is trying to sell 4 subadult boas with no mention of potential exposure to these animals. This development is very disturbing. I simply cannot fathom such irresponsible and negligent behavior. I suppose that when she advertised them as Het for Anery, Het for Stripe, and Possible Het Albino, she neglected to add Possible Het for DEAD.

Please forgive any delay in response on my part this weekend as I am out of state for a book signing and I am unsure of internet access.
 
These wont last long.

She did say they are het for dead (in a roundabout sort of way) :dgrin:

I wish you the best and hope this gets resolved without you needing to pursue legal action.

People like this need to be stopped and any potential buyer needs to be warned so they don't buy an animal and expose their collection.
 
I am beside myself here, if I thought there was even the slimmest chance of any of my animals being infected with IBD, or anything for that matter, I would never try to dump my collection. Six years ago when my wife and I got started in this hobby IBD was mentioned on a regular basis by a lot of well known breeders, I really thought they had this disease in check or under control. Boy was I ever wrong ! Is there no organization anywhere to shut down her operation, before she creates an epidemic. It's amazing to think that one person could destroy an entire industry. But then again look at Typhoid Mary. So in these modern times are we going to have IBD Susan? Is there any organization that can force her to quarantine all her animals, (stop all sales) until each and every animal is tested? I realize people don't like to be narcs, but everyone needs protection in a case like this. I have so many thoughts in my head I'm starting to ramble. The fact that people are so cold and uncaring (money hungry) I am APPALLED!!! B.W. I tip my hat to you, I feel you should pursue this to the fullest extent.
 
Can't speak with any authority here, but have put in a note to a vet friend who would be familiar with protocols in Florida regarding animal-only diseases. My first guess is that its not going to be much more than a "buyer-beware" situation, and that the best current option would be to send an email to whichever venue she is advertising in, requesting that they take a look at this link, possibly even solicit more info. Maybe the moderator or owner of the site likes boas and pythons, and might take some initiative. To interfere with commerce without the authority of the courts or government, without a proven violation of that venue's TOS, is not likely. Until a disease threatens an industry or people, such as bird flu, west Nile, mad cow, etc., I can't see it getting on the radar. For any entitiy to shut her down, or quarantine, they would have to have a procedure and funds allocated to check her animals, and pessimistic me just doesn't think we can expect help outside of a lawsuit and a resulting court order, and besides being no sure thing, how long would that take? Trying to get the word out to all right now may be the best, and only option, but I do expect more discussion as to what can be done.
 
Jim,
You have a lot of good points. I'm the last person to want to have an open door policy with every government organization, however something needs done before the selling of sick animals becomes the norm. Let us know what you find out from your vet friend, I'm hopeful it will be enlightening. I've always looked at this as a fun hobby, as well as educational, and now for a select handful of people, I feel they are trying to ruin it for everyone, due to their greed. It just dosen't seem fair. I truly hope B.W. gets everything resolved in a satisfactory manner. I still have to wonder, what is satisfatory in this scenario ?
 
I figured I would add a little bit more information here.

I have a local friend named Garie Chavez From (Snake Connection) that purchased 6 Rosy Boas from Susan. Here is the link:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67941&highlight=Susan

Anyway, when Garie brought them over for me to check out after getting them from Susan, I tried to make it quite clear that to Garie that the one mis-sexed "Het for Limberg albino" looked Very bad. I told gary that snake is going to die. It did not feel right, and it did not move right. It looked to be in the process of what appeared to be a long slow decay. I guess I was right. It did die. In fact, out of the 6 rosy Boas that he purchased from her, 5 died. He also lost an additional 5 more of his own animals soon afterward due to cross contamination. When Susan's sick snakes would refuse to eat, he would touch the mouse on the snakes nose. After further refusal to feed, he would then try another snake until the mouse was taken. This frugal move proved to be a very costly mistake in the long run.

I have another friend in San Diego that also purchased 6 Rosy boas from Susan about 1 year ago. He is a very experienced Rosy Boa Keeper, yet he lost 5 of the 6 animals that he purchased from her. He said they just started dropping one by one. Is this all a big coincidence? I seriously doubt it. I have no vet reports to post, and neither do they. I just have this information, and I figured that I would post it here. I do not know BW Smith, but, I do not doubt his story for a second knowing what happened to not just one, but two friends of mine.
 
Unless a disease has the potential to be zoonotic (passed from animals to humans) the CDC or any other government agency will not be involved. There has to be a threat to humans, like Jim already mentioned, for any agency to take active part of a control.

I have no knowledge of the law as far as anything being possible in terms of placing a court order aganst this person to prevent her from selling infected animals. There could be a way of using an animal cruelty standpoint to get the ball rolling but that is just me thinking out loud.

It becomes only a "buyer beware" situation that unfortunately will not be enough to prevent others from making the mistake of buying IBD infected animals.
 
Careful what you wish for !!

Just thinking kind of out loud, in as much as words can be read out loud. Ivan is my vet friend and cohort, and I think it safe to say that with the huge size of the dog lobby, dog lovers, dog money, etc, if a dog-only disease can't initiate imposed quarantines, then a boid disease will not either. Most of us do have to have a permit to do what we do in our given states, and different states mandate certain hygenic conditions. But IBD is not clearly indicative of a condition that would violate even stringent antiseptic standards. And just for conjecture's sake, lets say you could contact some entity that would legally step in to "quarantine" a hobbyist breeder, essentially shutting them down for some period of time pending tests and other rigors until issuing a clean bill of health. Despite BW's own internal efforts to run a very clean ship, couldn't someone put the authorities on to him, since he has a confirmed incident, and shut him down until he passes their muster. IBD would seem to already be the "kiss of death" in more ways than one. Besides potentially infesting and killing animals within a collection before it is contained (similar to PCH 101's story of his friends), once a person is identified as having had it, whether it be the apparent carelessness of Susan, and now in the meticulous confines of BW's collection, people might rightfully avoid Susan's animals, but maybe also avoid BW's as well. Is it fair? Doesn't matter. An IBD tag, even if unearned, could be like the scarlet letter. I don't know that any other solution is practical outside of "buyer beware" and the hobby's own mechanisms, such as this forum.
 
So pretty much, what I'm reading is, in Susans mind, it is perfectly acceptable to sell sick animals to innocent customers. When I buy any animal online, I have to take the sellers word 100%, I can check there integrety here but the good health of the animal is always just considerd a no brainer. I have to say, I have learned from B.W.s unfortunate experience. Myself, I have always quarantined 90 days, now it is being said in order to be 100% safe, you need to quarantine for 1 1/2 years. Who has that kind of time ? In actuality this incident could change the entire face of this hobby as we know it. So now when sending an animal in a breed project, plan for that animal to be gone a minimum of 2 years. Does this seem feasible ? It really dosen't! Why hasn't there been bad press on this person before now, if it's been going on for over a year? There needs to be a proverbial Blacklist, specially created for people like this. This whole thing is just too much to comprehend, as I look at all my healthy animals, the majority of whom I have raised from neonates, I think this is the utmost cruelty, as well as a total lack of respect to the people who really love their animals for what they are, and not just their monetary value. To infect a whole collection should be punishable with a prison term.(LOOOOONG PRISON TERM!!!!)
 
Rick, you are definitely passionate about this hobby and this specific situation. Unfortunately, the worst case scenario applies here. Local news have made a huge deal of the newly discovered Dog flu, but since it only affects dogs and the mortality is low, nothing really will be done to control it aside from us veterinarians having to deal with it the best way we can.
West Nile Virus wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't because people can get it. However, we must remember that dogs, cats, horse and many furry and feathered animals are considered pets and companion animals at that. This grants them a special position in the ladder where they take priority whenever something happens that affects them. Reptiles do not fall into that category being more of an exotic or novelty pet and thus they do not have the same pull with the big research companies in trying to do anything for them in a nationwide scale.

The only chance we have here is to do like local news and spread the word to as many places as possible and hope that as many people as possible read it and avoid the animals at all costs. IBD is not a new problem but maybe a greatly overlooked one and that's where we can all pay the price.
 
I totally understand the concept of the furry animal as opposed to the reptile. This doesn't mean I agree with it, but I understand. The misconception of these beautiful animals is staggering. So if my passion gets me into trouble, I apologize. My wife and I do a couple shows a month, and the questions we are asked are outrageous. A lot of the people have never held a reptile until that point in time, so they'll ask why they aren't slimy, or vicious. So I guess we just need to educate. I know every one of my animals has their own personality, so they are not a lesser pet (as opposed to more popular pets.)
 
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