Mile High Herps (Susan Newman) - IBD Infected Snake

[Chameleon Company]

I think we are a long way from "looooong prison terms" Rick, although I can certainly sypathize with your anger and frustration. If BW didn't have such meticulous quarantine procedures, what could his loss have been, and may yet still be? And how many of the really big breeders may have had a controlled IBD incident, and yet don't want to go public about it, and for good reason. Maybe the boid breeders with money and clout will some day come up with an industry standard for both sales and incident reporting. With their influence, maybe they could get the larger web classified sites to put a link to it on all pages that advertise species that are potential carriers. There a person would find threads such as this. But just imagine the potential for disputes and legal issues if someone feels they have been incorrectly labeled. My guess is also that government involvement would be state-level at best. Where a state with very active reptile industries, such as California or Florida, may eventually establish rigorous and possibly quite invasive standards, don't expect much out of Minnesota or Idaho. etc. What if some day the appropriate state agency shows up on your doorstep, prepared to issue fines and revoke permits based on the results of their tests, and points at "that white snake there with the purple eyes ... do that one first" and proceeds to try to find the liver with a needle? Big Brother ... can't live with him, can't live without him? Maybe after returning from reptile shows now, after shaking hands with so many people who touched a half dozen snakes at other tables, you have to go through the "de-contamination room", scrubbing down and changing all clothes? Obviously some exageration, but it makes more sense than it did ten years ago.

 

[rick c]

As for government control, I believe none of us want that, with the general publics misconception of these animals the last thing we need is anyone making rules that knows absolutely nothing about them. It's funny you should mention the decontamination room, when we get home from shows, or pet stores, the clothes are removed in the hallway, then placed in a plastic bag for transport to the washer, while the clothes are washing, we're showering, and truthfully all this just for mite prevention. At the shows, no one is allowed to touch or hold an animal without using the hand sanitizer. Is this enough to safeguard us if an animal at the show is infected with IBD ? It is very unfortunate, but the shows will probably cease (at least our participation) I can't bring an animal home from a show, and quarantine it for 1 1/2 years! I am in no way a broker, all the babies for sale were produced here. How do I keep them protected ? Not that many babies are sold at the shows, we really enjoy the interaction with the curious public. O.K. I'll get off my soapbox for a minute ! This is just such a sad state of affairs.............

 

[coyote]

Unless a disease has the potential to be zoonotic (passed from animals to humans) the CDC or any other government agency will not be involved. There has to be a threat to humans, like Jim already mentioned, for any agency to take active part of a control.

Actually there is another major criterion for heavy involvement by the CDC and government agencies. That would be for any diseases that afffect the Business of agriculture.

For example, hoof and mouth and brucellosis.

It becomes only a "buyer beware" situation that unfortunately will not be enough to prevent others from making the mistake of buying IBD infected animals.

Buyers don't have to be "afloat in a sea of non-information". Concerned individuals still have the use of freedom of speech, the Freedom of Information Act, and other public forums-such as this one, to inform as many interested parties as possible.

 

[morphrancher]

Susan Newman is Not Affiliated With Mile High Morph Ranch

Since this is such a serious issue I would like to reiterate what has already been stated by others. Susan Newman and Mile High Herps is not in any way affiliated With Mile High Morph Ranch.

We do own the milehighherps.com domain name and it points to our main MHMR website, as do several other domains. We have never done business as Mile High Herps nor have we ever partnered with or employed Susan Newman.

Thanks again to the original poster for being specific and to the other posters who clarified this point.

Alex Tanner

 

[Chameleon Company]

As Marjee states[/QUOTE]Buyers don't have to be "afloat in a sea of non-information". Concerned individuals still have the use of freedom of speech, the Freedom of Information Act, and other public forums-such as this one, to inform as many interested parties as possible.

Although I did not see anyone imply otherwise, thank you for the reminder !! Unfortunately, one of the main problems is that people are also still free to be uninformed, ignorant to IBD, and in some cases just plain careless and reckless. Therein lies the spread of IBD.

 

[alfon76]

Hi Coyote:

I am not sure if my post was not clear enough or if I missed something, but you are stating the exact same thing I said. Hoof and mouth disease or Foot and mouth disease, as it is also known, and Brucellosis are both zoonotic diseases. This means, as I stated before, that they can be transmitted from animals to humans and that's why it is of importance to the CDC.

When you have diseases that affect animals only and it would be food animals only and not humans, it becomes of importance also to the government but not as high priority as when it affects public health. IBD does not affect humans and does not affect food animals in the USA (at least not yet), so it is not a priority of the government agencies or the big research corporations.

However, I do find myself talking about IBD when it is not the topic at hand. I hope this case gets resolved quickly and hopefully this Susan lady will do the right thing as there doesn't seem to be any other explanation for all this aside from her selling an infected snake.

 

[coyote]

Ivan, hoof and mouth is not a zoonosis. It does not infect primates.

You are correct about Brucellosis. But in the latter regard, it is not because Brucellosis from "allegedly" infected bison is transmissible to humans that Montana has a no tolerance policy against Yellowstone bison leaving the park and coming out into the surrounding Montana territory. Wandering bison are being rounded up and slaughtered because the disease is considered a threat to Montana's Brucellosis free status. This is specifically in regards to cattle and not humans. An issue of Agribusiness.

(Separate thread, separate thread?)This is in danger of becoming a side topic. I think, for myself, enough said.

Thank you.

 

[VandeverExotics]

I'm not too sure about how to stop this lady from selling sick snakes, but, in my opinion, it would do BW alot in his favor to screen capture any ads she still has and save them. This shows that she is still selling animals after several people from this forum have made her aware that her collection is infected with IBD. This may go a long way in shutting her down during the course of BW's legal action. Just my opinion.

 

[Jim O]

hoof and mouth is not a zoonosis. It does not infect primates.

Yes, this is off topic, but is also incorrect. Hoof and mouth disease, more commonly referred to as foot and mouth disease does affect humans and can be transmitted by contact with infected cattle (not by eating their meat however). While this is extremely rare, it does happen.

 

[coyote]

Ok, Jim O and Ivan, I have done some research of my own. You are correct, humans can be infected.
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/gray_book/FAD/FMD.htm

 

[Wilomn]

JimO is generally a pretty good source when it comes to medical stuff. He seems to have some background in it or something.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Ivan is a DVM, with a thriving practice here in the Orlando area, and is also the herd veterinarian for our colony, and that is why I asked him to give us his views regarding what protocols, if any, were in place regarding the ability of a government entity to get involved regarding the spread of animal lethal infectious diseases in reptiles. To the surprise of no one, there is no direct mechanism. It is a little frustrating to see a thread get steered off topic by bad information.
To her credit, I believe that at least Typhoid Mary had no clue that she was a carrier. Susan cannot claim such ignorance. Have to hope that people who access this thread will get the word out to others, and that there will at least be some benefit to those who would have otherwise done business with her.

 

[BWSmith]

I apologize for my absence as I was out of town. And of course, the wireless NIC Card on my laptop went out when I got home. That is just my luck recently.

people might rightfully avoid Susan's animals, but maybe also avoid BW's as well. Is it fair? Doesn't matter. An IBD tag, even if unearned, could be like the scarlet letter. I don't know that any other solution is practical outside of "buyer beware" and the hobby's own mechanisms, such as this forum.

This can certainly be the case and I discussed the repercussions of going public with my wife and a few close friends. In my humble opinion, the health of the community as a whole outweighs any blemish that this situation may invoke on the perception of my collection. My integrity is worth more to me than selling some boas. I have been very open to the fact that my collection has been exposed. I believe that the repercussions of disclosing the existence of this disease in a collection is the precise reason that not many others have come forward regarding Susan selling them an infected animal. However, if anyone reading this HAS gotten an infected animal from her, you may email me ([email protected]) rather than posting and your information shall be kept confidential. The case against her has already grown to a point that would seem irrefutable. However, every "nail in her coffin", so to speak, strengthens it further.

Now on to her ad on Kingsnake. I captured a screenshot of the ad and copies of the attached images under their original filenames. The seller was listed as "MHH". This was not conclusive that it was indeed her selling the animals. So before I posted my last reply on this thread, I sent her an inquiry through Kingsnake.com regarding the animals from my yahoo account under the name of Jeremy. I then forwarded the original inquiry and her responses to my primary account for archiving. Below is the correspondence.

From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 12:49 AM
Subject: Message about: 1.3 2003 Het ANERY/STRIPE/POS ALBINO


> Below is a copy of the mesage you sent to MHH
>
> what is the percentage chance that they are het albino? how much for just a pare? breeding the pair would give me for sure anerys and stripes (maybe together), right?
>
> thanks, jeremy
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
> location window) the URL below to view the ad that
> this message is in response to.
>
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=358609&cat=8
>
>

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: 1.3 2003 Het ANERY/STRIPE/POS ALBINO


Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for responding tothe ad on KS. I dont know for sure on the %possibility for albino. I didnt produce them. I purchased them as babies from CV Exotics. At the time i was not interested in the Albino het part. I just wanted them for the het STRIPE. Now i have real stripers and have no need for these. The only discount i can offer today is for the 1.3, otherwise less than that is still $275 each. I could split the shipping with you if that will help. Let me know. I expect them to go fast, because of the het stripe part.
Thanks,
susan

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: 1.3 2003 Het ANERY/STRIPE/POS ALBINO


Sorry forgot....yes you could get striped aneries. The anerys alone would be very nice as these snakes are light and very pretty for hets. They have small degree of connected saddles too. The male has a very small part of stripe on him towards the vent area.
Let me know.

As you can see, it is VERIFIED that it is indeed Susan Newman selling these animals AFTER she was informed that her collection is infected with Boid Inclusion Body Disease. At this point, I cannot imagine the type of person that holds a relatively small amount of money in higher regard than than the health of animals that she claims she cares about. I am dumbfounded.

I thank those of you here for your support. Also, while at the expo this weekend, I was informing dealers of the situation. Many of them have known me for some time and also showed a great deal of support.

I must go tend my animals, i have been gone for two days. If there is something that I did not address, please restate it so that I may. I will reread the responses I missed later to see if I have.

 

[BWSmith]

I just noticed that the email addresses in the first email did not display. This was from the "Send a Copy to Yourself" function on kingsnake.com when performing an inquiry. Therefore, both email addresses are [email protected].

 

[BWSmith]

She appears to have removed the Kingsnake ad. Hopefully this due to the administration on KS or other pressures and not due to having sold the animals.

 

[rick c]

Lets just cross our fingers the animals didn't sell, or worse. Hey who knows, maybe she woke up this morning, and said "To sell sick animals is wrong, maybe I just won't do that anymore!"

 

[BWSmith]

One can only hope Rick. The preliminary litigation package is still being assembled. Things like this do not always go at a rapid pace. Not to mention the extra few hours per night in cage maintenance. I am also still waiting on some final tests and an official statement from the pathology lab.

 

[rick c]

I can't believe she hasn't come on here to defend herself, this is a very serious situation, for her to feel no need to respond (one way or the other) makes no sense to me. B.W. please keep us informed of all the details as they come up. This thread has gotten my undivided attention, IBD is a KILLER,and IMHO is talked about far to little. I get the feeling it is one of those-- if you don't talk about things it will just go away, guess what, it's not.

 

[Alias47]

B.W. I do hope that the rest of your collection hasn't been exposed...but I have to say...you sure are a slick guy...the email you sent through your yahoo address is amazingly UNLIKE your usual, very well written and thought out posts. Very slick...

I have given up hope that Susan will decide to stop unloading her animals and get them tested...now I just hope someone puts a stop to her before she contributes to a widespread reptile epidemic.

I think the animal cruelty charge is a good idea...although I cannot imagine her being charged or convicted unless they actually biopsy her snakes and determine that they are being sold with IBD...which will probably never happen...if the local animal authorities were to check her out...as long as her animals were well kept...it would probably end there irregardless of possible disease...at least as long as there were no visually ailing animals.

 

[BWSmith]

Most animal cruelty laws tend to not cover snakes as far as I can tell.