Mile High Herps (Susan Newman) - IBD Infected Snake

[mmfrankford]

Most animal cruelty laws tend to not cover snakes as far as I can tell.

That's a crime in itself.

 

[BWSmith]

Update:
Still gathering paperwork and statements from various professionals. The pathology lab is working on establishing a confirmed timeline for the Inclusion Bodies in the Salmon Boa. The process is well beyond my realm of understanding and involves equipment that I have never heard of.

One of my large female boas that gave birth at the beginning of this year is showing signs of a mild RI. I have begun antibiotic treatment and will be taking sterile mouth swabs to the vet for culture. She has good body weight and has been in excellent health, so i began her on Amikacin, which I have found to be a much more effective broad spectrum antibiotic than Baytril. With any luck, it is unrelated since she has not regurged or retained sheds. However, you can understand my concern. If she is unresponsive to antibiotics, I may have to entertain other options.


How could such a beautiful animal cause so much havoc?

 

[Tsutton5]

wow

She is a very pretty snake...

 

[SSReptiles]

Very beautiful snake B.W. Such a shame that she was infected.

 

[Torin]

It has been a few months now. Any updates?

 

[BWSmith]

Well, I have been advised to hold off on legal action until the IBD has run its course and I have a total loss estimate.

So far boas that have died or had to be euthanized:
2 Nicaraguan Boa Neonates
Phantom Boa Sibling Neonate
Adult Breeder BCI
Hogg Island Boa
Proven Super DH Ghost male

The adult male boa that I have had for about a decade is also showing symptoms.

Tissue samples are pending pathology reports but all showed SEVERE symptoms. Multiple tissue samples were taken and extra samples are being stored in formalin solution and stored here in the event that the court wants new pathology reports from a different lab.

 

[Torin]

Awww crud!

Man, I'm sorry this is happening to you.

Here is hoping that you get it contained and dealt with, without any more damage.

Good luck!

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Words aren't enough.
I hope in the long run you get enough together to really make this broad pay for this. Sucks these things happen to the nicest people.

My sypathies Bro'
Rick

 

[Greg Riso]

Playing Devil'

BW, I sympathize with the situation you're faced with but I do have a few simple questions. I remember you said you were a meticulous record keeper. If the animal in question was QUARANTINED properly how could any others have been exposed in such a short time frame? Since you mentioned the animal died within 71 days how long was your quarantine period? It seems to me that if the hypo could have contaminated or possibly contaminated any other animals then how come the reverse situation cannot be possible? If I was Susan's attorney I would argue that one of the animals you just listed contaminated contaminated

 

[chondroqueen]

BW, I have just read this thread through and through and all I can say is that I am truly sorry. I can only hope justice will be served in your case. Such a sad, sad story. My thoughts are with you.

 

[Greg Riso]

Supposed to Read Devil's Advocate

Hit the wrong key and sent prematurely. I meant to say in my last sentence, how do you know your animals didn't contaminate hers? I would think disease from contamination is a two way street. I know it's supposed to take a long time for IBD to surface but does anyone actually have a firm time frame on it from start of contact to finish?

 

[BWSmith]

1. If the animal in question was QUARANTINED properly how could any others have been exposed in such a short time frame?

2. how long was your quarantine period?

3. It seems to me that if the hypo could have contaminated or possibly contaminated any other animals then how come the reverse situation cannot be possible?

I broke it down into individual questions and numbered them so that I can address them concisely. Hope you don't mind.

1. We know more each year about the specifics of IBD, but one thing that alludes researchers is the specific means of transmission. It has been suggested that it may be transmitted via parasites, cross-contamination, or even airborne. Therefor, there is no way to accurately determine the specific MODE of transmission. However, 71 days is not what I would call a short time frame as far as a retrovirus spreading. Introduction of the retrovirus and onset of symptoms are usually at least 6 months apart in Boas. It is possible for an IBD infected snake to enter a facility for only one day and have the retrovirus spread.

2. 6 months to a year.

3. It is not feasible that the Salmon was infected at my facility for several reasons. First, no new Boids had entered my facility in over a year. This disease affects pythons very quickly compared to boas, thus in that year (had IBD been present in the collection), the Pythons would have died off within a few months. I have proof positive via pathology reports that IBD was not present prior to this animal. The specifics are not being made public, but they were verified by an independent third party within this thread.


Please let me know if I did not explain satisfactory or clearly. I am typing quickly.

 

[BWSmith]

I know it's supposed to take a long time for IBD to surface but does anyone actually have a firm time frame on it from start of contact to finish?

That is one of contributing factors as to how I can provide a timeline and spread of infection.

 

[Greg Riso]

Sounds Reasonable

It will be interesting to see what's learned about IBD from all of this but the cost (both monetary and loss of animals) is unfortunate to say the least.

 

[BWSmith]

Here is the post I was referring to regarding evidence that IBD was not present prior to this animal.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72726&page=9&pp=5

I can always send it to Ken Harbart to verify since I don't think he likes me anyway


This is not a straight forward "they sent me a bad snake" thread. It is very complex situation with a long time frame, involving a very complex disease and very complex methodology to prove the case. This often makes it difficult to explain. Which is why I posted some straight forward questions (post linked above) to an independent third party and sent them the necessary documentation to make a yes or no answer as to my claims.

I had a keen understanding of the disease prior to this situation as I am well versed in herp veterinary care, rehabilitate herps, consult nature centers on herp rehabilitation and care, have an in-house clinic, a great deal of correspondence with primary experts in different areas, and an extensive library. One is forced to learn such things when working with venomous species as proper veterinary care for dangerous animals is often hard to come by. One hope is that this thread has prompted boid owners to learn more about the disease so that they may be aware of it and see the neccessity of pathology studies of any animal that perishes. I can offer the contact information for a great pathology lab through PM. They are inexpensive (comparatively), precise, and thorough with meticulous reports.

I welcome and questions or concerns as the burden of proof is on the accuser and I stand ready to present any information that I have and am able to disclose. More about my work, experience, and facility can be seen on my site at www.ReptileEducation.com

 

[khood]

man, am I am glad I saw this thread.

This thread may have saved me from a ton of headaches down the road. I responded to an ad on KS. I didn't know until I received a reply from Susan that it was Mile High Herps that was placing the ad. I responded to the ad asking about the 1.1 sub adult pair het anery/albino/stripe for $450.00/pair (notice it doesn't say poss. het albino in the ad). That seems extremely low for het SNOWS! So I asked if they were 100% het anery and 100% albino. I also asked what her terms are. Notice she did respond saying they are not 100% het snow, however, she didn't provide any terms. From reading this thread I see why she didn't offer a 'health guarantee'. I am glad I did a search here because I may well have purchased these animals. I fill first post her ad off KS dated 4/29/06 followed by her reply to me inquiring about the pair. Again notice how misleading the 1.1 sub adult pair het anery/albino/stripe is. I took it as 100% het SNOW!

Posted by MHH (Contact Me!) on April 29, 2006 at 09:42:54
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Help me go on vacation!

(here is the email I received from Susan)

Date: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:39 PM
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about: INVENTORY REDUCTION.
Size: 905 KB
Attachments: Anery fem 1 FS 4-29.jpg (213.6 KB) AF.jpg (200.1 KB) AF1.jpg (242.1 KB) AF2.jpg (244.4 KB)

In a message dated 4/29/06 2:05:16 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
1) how long have you had them?
2) ever have or currently have mites?
3) who produced them and what were the parents that produced them?
4) what are your terms?


I originally bought 4 littermates 1.3 from CV exotics as babies. They are over 2 yrs and 4.5'. Eating FT med rats weekly. No mites. I accept paypal or m.o. only. They are 100% het anery and stripe and possible het albino. If they were 100% het albino you wouldn't get them for this price. One of the parents was a stripe het albino. Pics attached.
Let me know...lots of interest in them.

Thanks,
susan


I hope this helps anyone else that may have responded to her ad and I hope all is going well with you B.W.


Regards
Kevin Hood

 

[BWSmith]

Sorry for the delayed reply and to dredge up an old thread. I am glad that you decided against the risk.

The IBD seems to have run its course and I have had no IBD losses or symptoms since my last update. I would not announce that publicly if I were not 99.99% sure. However, I am conducting another battery of tests to ensure that the collection is clear as boas have been documented as asymptomatic carriers. One can never be too careful when dealing with such an issue.

Trying to look on the positive, I now have an account with the pathology laboratory, upgraded my in-house clinic with new casework, countertops, and equipment, upgraded to new caging for each boa to eliminate any boid contact with possibly infected enclosures, and my data may prove useful in the future. There is always a bright side.

I have retained duplicate samples of each loss preserved in a 10% formalin solution in sterile specimen containers in the event that a second pathology analysis is required for further action or for research purposes.

I will attempt one last, and likely futile, attempt at an acceptable reconciliation of the situation. One would think that, given the evidence, she would open a dialog or at least show some interest in the situation and possible ramifications.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

B.W, Ive been following this from the beginning, and thats good to hear, heavy weight off of your mind I'm sure.

 

[khood]

? for BW Smith about further testing

Just curious as to what type of testing you are going to be doing during your next battery of tests. My understanding this could be quite costly on live specimens. It would be nice if they would just come out with a conclusive blood test.

Thanks
Kevin Hood

 

[Kairo]

All i can say is HORRID! I myself had an experience with IBD. Actually my friend in NY had a collection of 12 snakes die. One actually was a King snake. Seems some of you may have taken Herpetology classes, as i have. Colubridaes have been known to get this disease as well. As my friend purchased a BCI and it became very ill after two weeks. First refuse any food. Regurgitation when it did eat, loss of weight quicky, and death. He had a necropsy performed...IBD! His collection at the time was not near this new arrival that died. But he was. This disease is horrid. It can be air born as well as cross contamination.

Well his Burm. started with weight loss..and he went to the vet with it. All checked out fine. I will make a long story short.

You CAN carry any drop lets around on clothing etc. to the other snakes. In my findings snakes (many) can live years with no symptoms, or just being thin and kind of sick looking, when in fact it's IBD.

We need laws to protect us. Although we can't get this disease....other reptiles (mainly the Boidae) family can get wiped out over a course of many years, not weeks or months.

I see as many people may not suspect their animal has this disease. But c'mon...i am at the point when i read "a little thin for its size" i pass!

This is a very serious disease. My friend had many of the snakes for over 8 years. He needed an adult BCI...and it cost many hundreds of dollars, perhaps thousands to have all that died or started showing signs of being sick much money.

Again his whole collection. This news of IBD and people who sell sick animals makes my stomache very sick.

These are animals, they feel pain. They bleed red. They get sick. Jusy like our dogs and cats!

Now after looking for a Dumeril i may sit back and wait for a very reputable breeder at this point. I can't risk losing my all my snakes as i mainly own boas and pythons..one Cali King for 11 years!

Not paranoid...just waking up to a story that i almost forgot existed.

I hope all goes well for many Vet. checks to come.

Pamela