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Mile High Herps (Susan Newman) - IBD Infected Snake

Kairo said:
We need laws to protect us. Although we can't get this disease....other reptiles (mainly the Boidae) family can get wiped out over a course of many years, not weeks or months.

What possible good would a law do vis-a-vis IBD? Require all snakes to be "live-tested" with an incredibly expensive biopsy before any kind of trade or sale? That's not a solution. Besides, depending on "laws" to protect you is sort of like driving like an idiot just because you're wearing your seat belt. If you haven't taken appropriate measures to protect yourself beforehand, how can a law possibly help after? This is an emotional response to the issue, and not one grounded in reality... emotional responses to issues result in too many needless laws as it is.
 
One actually was a King snake. Seems some of you may have taken Herpetology classes, as i have. Colubridaes have been known to get this disease as well.
Can you point me toward documented cases of Inclusion Body Disease in Lampropeltis? The only real documentation in Colubrids that I am aware of is in Elaphe. And even then, it was "similar" to IBD, but not conclusive. A couple reports of arboreal vipers have also shown a disease similar to IBD, but again, it was not confirmed. I stay pretty up to date, but you can't read all the new research in every journal. So if you could point me toward papers on confirmed IBD in colubrids, I would appreciate it.

It can be air born as well as cross contamination.
Again, I may be out of date, but my understanding is that it is theorized that it may possibly be airborne. An unproven theory at this point. But I very well may have missed a paper.
 
Mister Internet said:
What possible good would a law do vis-a-vis IBD? Require all snakes to be "live-tested" with an incredibly expensive biopsy before any kind of trade or sale? That's not a solution. Besides, depending on "laws" to protect you is sort of like driving like an idiot just because you're wearing your seat belt. If you haven't taken appropriate measures to protect yourself beforehand, how can a law possibly help after? This is an emotional response to the issue, and not one grounded in reality... emotional responses to issues result in too many needless laws as it is.

By laws. I simply mean if the animal is in the new home for less than 1 month (just a calculation) the seller is the liable party. This however does not always seem to be the case, as it's hard to prove if the snake had Inclusion when sold. Also other animals in the sellers collection may test negative...while the snakes in the new owners collection may test positive. These tests are the best we have.

But they don't help us much. So we need a better law. A snake that tests positive for IBD may have aquired it from the old or new home. It's a disease that seems to have no "set in stone" path. It goes to work very fast on some snakes, while others who have even been housed with the sick animal may not show symptoms for a long time, even years.

So....seller should beware.

It's a very complicated disease...and not much is in the herpetology books i have, except what i have learned. I listen and believe in hopes i never come across this disease.

As far as proof of IBD showing up in the Kings, corns etc....i will look it up again.

Pamela
 
Journal Of Virology (been going through books here) may be the book i have read it in. Confirmed completely? Does not seem so after all. If i have made a mistake with the species i am sorry...but this Virus has the ability to perhaps not be exclusive to our other species mentioned in this thread.

It goes into depth about the "snake mite" who seems to perhaps play a major role with IBD.

Pamela
 
Update:
Liver biopsies on the remaining boids have yielded unfavorable results. The majority of the remaining boids are asymptomatic, but infected. This is why we do liver biopsies.

The remaining boids are being euthanized on Tuesday.
0.1 Adult female Guyana
0.1 Adult female Central American
2.1 Het Albino
0.2 Subadult Colombians
2.1 Adult Colombians
0.1 Subadult Dumerils
1.0 Sorong Green Tree Python

The 5 baby Central Americans, including the Phantom, were born before the infected snake arrived and have been separate from everything else. I am holding off on those pending liver biopsies. If they show to be negative, then another battery of tests will be performed in a year and the following year to ensure that they are clean.

The only redeeming factor is that blood and tissue samples are being sent off for use in research of the disease. So hopefully my massive loss will aid herpetoculture in some way in the future.
 
I am so sorry to hear about your loss and I am eternally grateful for the work you are doing to further the education of our hobby. We are all indebted to you BW. Thank you.

Jason Gonzalez
 
Why does this crap always happen to the good guys? Very sorry to hear about yet more loss. I hope this woman gets all that's coming to her.

What a shameful loss. :( Good luck with the legal side of it all.


Rick
 
Sorry...

My first name is Joel but I go by my middle name which is Jason. This is my first time to ever post on here so I'll get that fixed. Sorry for the confusion.
 
BW

I am so sorry you had this happen to you and your colony. This is so irresponsible on the part of the seller to you.

I want to thank you for doing the right thing yourself and containing the problem that was utterly dumped on you.

I do not deal much with snakes, but we are seeing some of the same type nightmares and irresponsible sellers like Susan Newman with an adenovirus in the bearded dragons and breeders dumping animals they have to know are infected, harming other collections and spreading more disease.

Again, thank you for being the ethical person you are.
 
When is the legal action going to start...surely she will have to be held responsible for the added losses....shameful!
 
BW,
Having read this thread more than once, I am sorry for your troubles and losses.
I thank you for the information and your honesty.
I wish you well on your pursuit of this uncaring b**** that puts dollars above the animals.
Lastly, I was under the impression that retroviruses were unable to go airborne. What did I miss? I obviously do not know what I thought I did about this deadly disease.
Thanks
Mark Daniels
 
BW, you are an example this industry needs to follow so we can stop the spreading of this disease. Unfortunately people like you are a rarity! Those like Susan who refuse to accept responsibility and continue to sell infected animals need to stop, this is getting ridiculous!
 
im reading this post through a link from the other previous thread.

B.w. This just made me entirely sad. you lost so many animals from just ONE irresponsible stupid woman.... i could never imagine such a loss... im so sorry.
 
BW- As already stated countless times, I wish to offer my sympathies also. Susan should be doing some serious jail time for robbing you and killing countless reptiles. These animals have no voice and depend on us entirely in captivity. Susan has no regard for anything living and has no business keeping anything living. I pray that justice is served, that you get some financial return. It's extremely unfortunate that you had to sacrifice your own collection.
 
What is worse, with all of this going on she is still selling animals on KS. I responded to an add with no name for some boas, the listing seller was MHH, and sure enough Susan replied. Man, unbelievable!!
 
Jasin said:
What is worse, with all of this going on she is still selling animals on KS. I responded to an add with no name for some boas, the listing seller was MHH, and sure enough Susan replied. Man, unbelievable!!


Why does this NOT surprise me?! Very sad, indeed.
 
Wow.
I am extremely saddened at the loss of life that resulted.
I am extremely grateful that the correct action was taken to stop the disease from spreading further on your part.

Right now, I only have kingsnakes, but I would like to have a pair of Diamond pythons and a pair of Red Tailed Boas in the future. I think I am going to hold off until there are easier tests for the disease, and probably get the boas before the pythons so I can make sure they aren't carriers.

Wow. Just wow. It is very scary that someone would know they quite probably have sick animals with such a fatal disease and continue to sell them, spreading them across the country like that. I can understand if you don't know, but once you know you might have it, to keep selling like she is (or at least was)?

That is just plain wrong on so many levels.
 
I feel that I need to be clear. I am sharing my experiences for a few reasons. First and foremost is to inform people of a potential danger from her stock. Secondly is to raise some awareness to the disease. Sadly, many are affected by it and only a handful have ever come forward. I know one major breeder that has been hit by IBD but will not go public. So it seems to be a taboo subject except in the abstract. I felt it was important for people to see a first hand case and how the situation progressed over time. Compensation for my losses is a distant third as many of these animals were dear to me and one I had for over a decade. There is really no way to compensate or that.

My intention was NOT to deter people from keeping boids. Boids are wonderful creatures. It is important to know that IBD is out there and can come from any direction, but the risk is worth the reward. You just have to be careful as you can. People should not be afraid of keeping boids because of IBD. That would be like refusing to keep reptiles at all because of Crypto or Paramyxo. There is risk in anything you enjoy. I just happen to be the rare case of "worst case scenario".

I would also like to thank everyone for the support and wishes. I am amazed at the generosity of so many people offering to donate boas to get me back going (including some REALLY nice stuff). I have declined literally dozens of boas. I am just not ready to entertain more boids at this point. However, I would all that offered animals to help me in another way. As I mentioned, I have 51 samples going to research of the disease. But money is the biggest hindrance in research. While not formal yet, I am in the process of putting together a fundraiser for Dr. Jacobson's research on IBD. His research has never been funded and he has paid for all of it on his own. I would like to ask that those individuals that offered me free snakes donate the sale of the animal toward research. I am still trying to work out all of the details and hopefully should have everything put together in the next few months. The gist of it is getting everyone's animals documented on this end and the animals are placed in the classifieds at 75% of market value under a single seller (with donor listed so people know where they are coming from). The payment goes to a single PayPal account set up specifically for the fund and shipping costs are reimbursed to the donor. The animals never leave the donor's care until they are shipped to the buyer.

Like I said, there are alot of details to work out, but you get the general idea. I would rather see those animals be sold for a good cause than donated to me.

OK, I have taken this far enough off topic. My apologies.
 
BWSmith said:
I feel that I need to be clear. I am sharing my experiences for a few reasons. First and foremost is to inform people of a potential danger from her stock. Secondly is to raise some awareness to the disease. Sadly, many are affected by it and only a handful have ever come forward. I know one major breeder that has been hit by IBD but will not go public. So it seems to be a taboo subject except in the abstract. I felt it was important for people to see a first hand case and how the situation progressed over time. Compensation for my losses is a distant third as many of these animals were dear to me and one I had for over a decade. There is really no way to compensate or that.

My intention was NOT to deter people from keeping boids. Boids are wonderful creatures. It is important to know that IBD is out there and can come from any direction, but the risk is worth the reward. You just have to be careful as you can. People should not be afraid of keeping boids because of IBD. That would be like refusing to keep reptiles at all because of Crypto or Paramyxo. There is risk in anything you enjoy. I just happen to be the rare case of "worst case scenario".

I would also like to thank everyone for the support and wishes. I am amazed at the generosity of so many people offering to donate boas to get me back going (including some REALLY nice stuff). I have declined literally dozens of boas. I am just not ready to entertain more boids at this point. However, I would all that offered animals to help me in another way. As I mentioned, I have 51 samples going to research of the disease. But money is the biggest hindrance in research. While not formal yet, I am in the process of putting together a fundraiser for Dr. Jacobson's research on IBD. His research has never been funded and he has paid for all of it on his own. I would like to ask that those individuals that offered me free snakes donate the sale of the animal toward research. I am still trying to work out all of the details and hopefully should have everything put together in the next few months. The gist of it is getting everyone's animals documented on this end and the animals are placed in the classifieds at 75% of market value under a single seller (with donor listed so people know where they are coming from). The payment goes to a single PayPal account set up specifically for the fund and shipping costs are reimbursed to the donor. The animals never leave the donor's care until they are shipped to the buyer.

Like I said, there are alot of details to work out, but you get the general idea. I would rather see those animals be sold for a good cause than donated to me.

OK, I have taken this far enough off topic. My apologies.

I think that is a truly wonderful idea! when i have some spare cash, im going to be SURE to donate as much as i can!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
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