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minimum weight for male breeders

G

geckonate

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Hi all,

I looked through Tremper and de Vosjoli's book (my personal bible) and found nothing about the minimum weight of a male, just info about females.

Based on experience, what is youngest/lightest male that has successfully bred for you?

Thanks in advance.

Also, how long after an introduction should I expect eggs?
 
Sorry I don't know anything about the males but after an introduction you should expect eggs in about 2-5 weeks depending on the female.
 
Males can usually breed younger than females, but I personally still wait until they are 50g before trying ;)
 
There is absolutely no reason to wait until a male is 50 grams before breeding him.... I have had males breed at 35 grams without any problems..... I have heard of smaller ones getting the job done without a hitch.... Some leos never even reach 50 grams.... I think this "50 gram rule" gets thrown around way too much without any explanation why....

Now as far as females go, the reasons you would want them to be a bit older an heavier is because egg production is very taxing on females and if they are too young or small they can become eggbound....
 
Well in my experience I haven't had a male "do" it right until after 50 grams. Hell I have a male who can't do it right at over 100 grams. If they can do it sooner fine, but it can cause them to go off feeding for a while and for that I do not usually take the chance. A healthy gecko can usually get to 50 grams fairly fast in my experience. Personally I would not breed at 35 but thats just my opinion
 
surfrkidts said:
If they can do it sooner fine, but it can cause them to go off feeding for a while and for that I do not usually take the chance. A healthy gecko can usually get to 50 grams fairly fast in my experience. Personally I would not breed at 35 but thats just my opinion
Click to expand...

It's all in opinion really, but we wait until they're at least 50 grams at well for the same reasons above.
 
surfrkidts said:
Well in my experience I haven't had a male "do" it right until after 50 grams.
Click to expand...
Not to be a jerk, but how much experiance is that exactly??? What, a half of a season??? You were just asking incubation and morph questions alittle over a year ago....

surfrkidts said:
If they can do it sooner fine, but it can cause them to go off feeding for a while and for that I do not usually take the chance.
Click to expand...
Once the males are seperated from the females, they go right back on feed, if they even go off at all..... Besides if the animal is in good shape than going off feed for a week or two will not cause a problem.... Just because a leo is 50 grams, it does not mean its in breeding condition.....

surfrkidts said:
A healthy gecko can usually get to 50 grams fairly fast in my experience. Personally I would not breed at 35 but thats just my opinion
Click to expand...
Again, how much experience is that??? There are many breeders that can back up the fact that there are some leos that will never see 50 grams unless they are overfed and overweight..... And that is not the equivalent of being healthy or in good breeding condition.....
 
Gregg M said:
Not to be a jerk, but how much experiance is that exactly??? One maybe two seasons.....
Click to expand...

Sorry not to have enough experience to voice my opinion or my experiences. I didn't know there was a minimum. Whether you wanted it to or not that still sounded condescending to me.

Gregg M said:
Once the males are seperated from the females, they go right back on feed..... Besides if the animal is in good shape than going off feed for a week or two will not cause a problem.... Just because a leo is 50 grams, it does not mean its in breeding condition.....
Click to expand...

Looks like your superior experience clashes with mine because I have a perfectly healthy male who has not started eating a month after being seperated from the female. Sure he's just fine, he was plenty fat, but I don't think he'd be in the shape I like him to be in if he had been only 50 grams. Some geckos don't reach 50 grams, sure, I know that. I'm not saying never breed them. Each problem in my collection is taken on a case by case basis, but 50 grams is what I have found to work for me.
 
surfrkidts said:
Sorry not to have enough experience to voice my opinion or my experiences. I didn't know there was a minimum. Whether you wanted it to or not that still sounded condescending to me.



Looks like your superior experience clashes with mine because I have a perfectly healthy male who has not started eating a month after being seperated from the female. Sure he's just fine, he was plenty fat, but I don't think he'd be in the shape I like him to be in if he had been only 50 grams. Some geckos don't reach 50 grams, sure, I know that. I'm not saying never breed them. Each problem in my collection is taken on a case by case basis, but 50 grams is what I have found to work for me.
Click to expand...
I kinda wanna interject here. Gregg that was a little condescending. These forums are here for people to ask questions and get answers, not to catch flak about what they asked "a half a season later" At least thats what I've gleamed from being here over the last several months. I've asked some questions repeatedly and not once did anyone give me hell about it, even in hindsight when I look back and see how silly they were. Look I know because I'm 15 this will prolly go in one ear and out the other but, if you dont have anything nice to say dont say it at all.
 
A lot of information does seem to be thrown around that seems to based more on "tradition" than experience. I'm NOT trying to interject anything here about someone's experience level. We just all have slightly different approaches...some are more idealistic, while others try new and different husbandry techniques based on their success/failures. It is frustrating to see "rules" put out there that aren't necessarily true (whether it be the dangers of sand as a substrate, the mortal danger of incubation temps fluctuating 1 degree, the 50 gram rule,...ect...) These ideals are helpful "rules of thumb" and are helpful to explain proper husbandry to new owners. But truth be told, there are a lot of exceptions that work just as well.
 
I thankfully appreciate everyone's opinions. :wavey:

I find it interesting that this info is not in the herpetoculture book. If it is, please guide me to the chapter/page.
Would there be any great way to measure the success of a younger healthy male 30-40 grams, vs a healthy male of 50+ grams?
 
As long as the male is healthy and eating well, I have had success with males around 45g. Sure I might prefer them to be larger, but as long as they maintain their weight I see no reason why not. Females I would prefer at least 50g simply because breeding is so taxing on their bodies.

Setting a firm limit (like a 50 gram minimum) I think is like saying that a 200lb 12 year old person is healthier than a 160 lb adult (maybe a bad example). Maybe it's a good general guideline, but I think the basis should be on general health and maturity of the animal (of which weight may be one of many indicators), not only the weight. If the animal is healthy enough to handle the stresses of breeding, who really cares how big it is?
 
My RAPTOR male was 34 grams when I first bred him and most of my clutches have been fertile. When breeding a male that small I think it's important to make sure that the male doesn't start loosing weight, if he starts loosing weight It would probably be best to hold off until he's a little bit bigger. This is just my opinion though, based on personal experience of course.

Matt
 
bro paul said:
A lot of information does seem to be thrown around that seems to based more on "tradition" than experience. I'm NOT trying to interject anything here about someone's experience level. We just all have slightly different approaches...some are more idealistic, while others try new and different husbandry techniques based on their success/failures. It is frustrating to see "rules" put out there that aren't necessarily true (whether it be the dangers of sand as a substrate, the mortal danger of incubation temps fluctuating 1 degree, the 50 gram rule,...ect...) These ideals are helpful "rules of thumb" and are helpful to explain proper husbandry to new owners. But truth be told, there are a lot of exceptions that work just as well.
Click to expand...

I agree Paul that there is definitely a ton of information that is regurgitated with little to no thought or self experimentation behind it. The 50 gram "rule" as it is said, is definitely something I see used as a constant, and nothing in this trade can truly be a constant, which is exactly why I don't personally use it for females. Females I think there is too much to consider to base plans on weight alone. Theres always a bigger picture. Using the 50 gram "bar" (as I will call it) for males however, is just what I have decided to do based on personal experience, current circumstances, and to avoid possible trouble I may not be ready for. Never ever is this little guide of mine a law, never is it all I look at, but usually I have decided my males healthy enough to breed pretty near 50 grams. Explaining this "bigger picture" can be a tough job, which is why these "rules of thumb" were invented in the first place. I really have no problem with individuals putting their own ideas and experience into action, and I think everyone has reasons of their own that can not and should not be judged. After all, I don't find myself as much of a "follower" kind of guy. How many people in reptiles are?
:rolleyes: :raspberry
 
Leopard geckos is something I mess around with on the side. My main thing is Red Tail Boas. I know my stuff via my buddies that have alot of expierence Doug Matuszak BoaBasment.com and Mark Miller LocoLizards.com. Doug is the largest breeder of the sharp strain in the world peroid. He has been keeping and breeding snakes since the dawn of time. Mark has had some really good past seasons under his belt and the gentlemen at salmonboa.com have taken him under thier wing. Point is I have access to some of the best expierence and knowledge in the biz. But you still see these people that have breed a pair of boas or have had maybe a year of breeding a couple boas under their belt dispensing knowledge. Usually their knowledge is just wrong. Females must be 5 years plus, salmons and hypos are not the same, my boas a pastel because it's pink, and you have to cool boas to breed them. My point is let people with the real knowledge and LONG TERM EXPIERENCE dispense knowledge that is going to effect how someone cares for their animal.

Greg more power to you. Being firm and truthful my seem rude to some but it wasn't and I think someone needs to be more like that on more forums.

* If you lynch me I don't care and I won't respond *
 
The NY Gecko said:
I kinda wanna interject here. Gregg that was a little condescending. These forums are here for people to ask questions and get answers, not to catch flak about what they asked
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Tom, pay attention to the thread.... I did not give anyone "flak" for their question..... What I did give someone flak for is putting out their silly and unfounded rules of thumb without reasoning..... And the reason given after the fact is totaly unfounded.....

And what I ment about a half of a season is exactly that..... A HALF OF A SEASON..... It is condescending to point out the obvious???? How can someone with a half of a season under their belt talk about their "personal experiences" in breeding when they have not even been through it yet??? LOL

Point being is that, unfounded advice should not be thrown about by the inexperianced like it is law....
 
Gregg didn't give me any flak for asking the question. I appreciate his frank honesty. I hope no one is offended.

I know this is a controversial topic and I didn't want to start a flame war. But I do find it interesting that the so-called "Godfather" of Leopard Geckos won't publish this info in his manual. Is he trying to remove any potential skepticism from people like us? Or does he have some formula for breeding success based on the age of his male breeders that he's not willing to share?
 
nate I was not refering to your question. Was refering to greggs comment about Tyler asking questions a half a season ago and now hearing about it from him. Even if hes only had half a season its not like the advice he gave wasn't decent. I could understand you jumping on him if he said one of 2 things. A really high weight that is just rediculous to expect or a really low weight like o say 30g. But saying wait till 50 isnt killing anyone.
 
Gregg M said:
Tom, pay attention to the thread.... I did not give anyone "flak" for their question..... What I did give someone flak for is putting out their silly and unfounded rules of thumb without reasoning..... And the reason given after the fact is totaly unfounded.....
Click to expand...

I can see that your jumping to conclusions has given you a completely wrong view of what I am saying. Gregg you can think of my experiences as unfounded and without reasoning as much as you want, but I'm no mindless zombie following everything I hear. Sure, I may not be all so experienced as the mighty you in leopard geckos, but I've been in animals a very long time, and somehow my practices seem to be paying off. The fact that the practices I PERSONALLY use have always worked for me is definitly unsupported </sarcasm>. I hope you realize that my 50 gram practice has nothing to do with the popular "rule" floating around. I stated my reasoning, I stated my experience with it and how it has worked for me, is there anything else I did wrong Gregg? Does everyone on this forum that has less experience than you have to be quiet and retain their experiences and comments?

Gregg M said:
And what I ment about a half of a season is exactly that..... A HALF OF A SEASON..... It is condescending to point out the obvious???? How can someone with a half of a season under their belt talk about their "personal experiences" in breeding when they have not even been through it yet??? LOL
Click to expand...

This is yet more invalid conclusions. Where on earth did you come up with this "fact" that I have never been through breeding?
 
This season was my first go at breeding leos, as I spend most of my time breeding snakes....My male is 31 grams, my female is 58 grams....and she has been laying good eggs every 3 weeks........
 
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