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"Monster" Bulls aka Hwy #277 Bullsnakes

homegrownherps

homegrownherps

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I was just wondering if anyone has experience / information on raising captive hatched offspring "Monster" Bull snakes aka Hwy #277 Bulls. I purchased a CB 2003 pair back in Feb. 2004 and to say I'm disappointed with the size would be an understatement. I have not bred them yet due to their lack of size. They seem to grow MUCH slower than any of the other locality Bull snakes or any other Bullsnake that I have now or have ever kept. I would think that being close to 5 years old, they would be much larger than 4-½ ft. I want to know when the “MONSTER” part will come, or if even will!
 
Jim,

I have owned and collectted 277 bulls for over 30 years. While it is true that the 277 animals do at time exceed 7 - 8'. As a general rule they average about the same as bulls from other area of Texas.

They are also normally a little lighter in body mass than some of the other locales. The moniker of "Monster Bulls" was in my opinion a marketing name.

While some of the adults used to produce this line were indeed exceptionally large it has not proven itself to be genetically passed on in a consistent basis. I have seen 277 bulls that were adult animals that barely exceeded 5'.

Just my two cents worth.

Good Luck,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms
 
cyberfrog said:
I have a female who was collecgted in west texas that MIGHT break 5 feet if lucky. She grew rather fast though:)
Click to expand...


Thanks for your input ...but I am not interested in wild caught animals. I am interested hearing from people who have actually raised captive hatched offspring.
 
Of the 60 or so F1 and F2 babies that I know of that have been raised up over the years from this locale, the largest any of my people and/or myself have seen and/or raised up the largest seem to be abou 6'10" at 5 years old. Hope that helps.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms
 
John ..yes it helps.
It seems as though there just not going to reach those so called "Monster" lengths in captivity...which would mean genetics can not be involved in there size.
 
I agree with you completely. Personally I believe that as in any specific locale you can find large individuals, but that the mean average of this locale is going to be around 6 - 6 1/2' as adults. As I mentioned before they also seem to be a little slighter in bulk than the most South Texas animals.

Good Luck with yours, at least they are decent looking locale specific animals,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms
 
Thanks .... Mine are, as you said ... nice. But unfortunately I got taken (as I am sure many others) by the advertising hype of the size potential of these Bullsnakes. And as for them being local specific Normal bullsnakes ...they certainly are not worth $150.00 bucks each.

I am glad to find this info out now rather than a few years from now when I might have to try to explain to customers why they never reach the size they are claimed to by others. :shrug01: :ack2:

I hope others will read this as they don't get taken either.
 
What I find not completely accurate is..

Should the phrase, " You were taken, " really be put in this post? I ask because exactly how were you taken Jim?

Were you told by the sellers of the bulls that they WOULD get to be Monster size? Or did Shannon ever say to you that they WOULD or be GUARANTEED to be monsters, so to say? Like he told you on the pit forum on this site, they come from a line that appears at this time, to be very large, but that does not guarantee anything.

I have had many, many conversations with Shannon over the years regarding these Monster 277 bulls. Never once has he ever said to me or to others I know, that they would ever be guaranteed to be Monsters. They are what they are: Bulls from huge parents. They hatch out completely huge for bulls, they come from huge parents, so then, of course, the label " Monster" bulls seemed appropriate at the time, and was used to separate them from other lines, that didnt' have babies as large hatch out and didn't come from parents that were as huge either.

I do understand your frustration and dissapointment, and you have every right to be. I would have been somewhat expecting them to be larger as well. Thing is, Cherry made some good points as well about the Tx. bulls he has seen and hatched over the years. Heck, I have purchased Tx. bulls from people as well that came from big parents and they didn't end up as large as what I was expecting.

So, since it appears that you were not blatantly lied to about these genetics, then perhaps saying you were taken is not appropriate here. Is there a possibility that there was some confusion about these genetics in your talks with Shannon from your end? Only you know that.

All of this comes with the territory of the unknown areas of genetics of snake breeding. Is the term, " Monster " appropriate for these bulls? Well, to some it may be, as they did come, again, from big parents and hatch out big. But of course, to some people, such as yourself and others, who have not seen the growth expected, I can completely see why you would not want to use that label. I just feel that using the label, " being taken " is not at all warranted here in this situation.

Just call them 277 bulls then. That way, that label is accurate. Are they worth $150 each? That is up to the individual.

Just my opinion.
 
Great post Billy and also thanks to John Cherry for chining in.
Billy, you asked if maybe jim had some confusion about "our talks" but he had never talked to me once up to about 10 days ago.I didn't even know he had bought the pair I sold to K.J. a few years ago so the answer to that is NO.

L8r
Shannon Brown
 
When you refer to something as a genetic line you are implying that what you are selling will reproduce itself. So if you say it is a genetic line of Monster bulls you are saying that you have proven out this line to be monsters. Which it sounds like in this case is misleading at best.
 
Billy - Certainly I'll tell you... I got taken in by the advertisement of these particular animals. The were advertised as "MONSTER BULL 9+ Truly monsters", That's what I thought I was buying into ...animals that could reach 9+ in length.

Why do you bring Shannon's name into this? Did I say anywhere that I purchased my animals from Shannon?
I did not buy my animals directly from Shannon, but they were produced by Shannon. And knowing that they were Shannon's, and he was advertising them as he was, was the sole reason I purchased them.

But since you did, your right I did talk to him on the phone, through emails and through forums. He did say that "the "genetics" are there for them to reach those monster lengths". I believe it is in one of his posts as well. You say they are what they are...they are hwy #277 animals NOT monster bulls. If some one claims that the genetics are there for them to grow to these Monster lengths, then there should be some one out there that's has some captive hatch offspring that has grown at least 8'+.

My main purpose for this thread was to seek out others who have any experience with raising captive bred offspring , not to verify that monster sized bull snakes can be caught in the wild. I have no doubt of that and do not question it. But it seems no one out there has raised a so called "Monster" bull to those advertised sizes. And it seems premature to market them as such w/o any having been kept back to see that the captive hatched animals actually reach the Monster lengths.

I am not frustrated at all, disappointed??? Yes - in their size. But still, they are nice animals and have had no problems with feeding or health. You and Shannon are right...they are what they are, simple ordinary Hwy #277 Bull snakes.....nothing more.

And so after waiting 5 years for them to reach these "Monster" lengths, I believe I am not wrong in any sense trying to find out some background about these animals publicly. As the Breeder himself, has no knowledge of the size they reach in captivity. In the 10 years he has been breeding them, he has not kept back a single baby.

I will for certain label them as Hwy #277 Bullsnakes. That's what they should have been sold as from the beginning, because in 4-5 years from now I don't want to have try to explain to my customers why they haven't reached the "Monster" size.

And I also want to add that when I talked to Shannon and KJ, I told them that I am not looking for any compensation what so ever, Just background info. And as I mentioned above and in several posts already...input from people that have actually raised CAPTIVE HATCHED offspring.
 
Just thought I would give this thread a bump. I am still looking for anyone who has info on raising CAPTIVE HATCHED Hwy #277 aka "Monster Bulls".
 
Know this is an older thread but wondering if anyone still here has now 17 year old hwy 277 bull snakes and if the EVENTUALLY did get big? I would certainly have expected there to be a genetic component to the parent’s size. Maybe the live longer and/or continue to grow later in life?
 
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