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More legislation in PA

Crap forgot some. The other law says all nonindengenous would require a permit and starting jan 1 2013 no permits will be issued, thus a ban. It lists a small number of species that are exempt, cats and dogs are not exempt. All birds are.
 
The amendment 2904.1 under house bill 2233 does not state that there will be no permits issued after January 1, 2013.

It does state that the commission may issue a permit, upon application once all requirements are met, and that the commission at the discretion of the director can revoke or suspend any permit for any violation under 2904.1

So at this time, under current bill 2233 and amendment 2904.1 there is no ban. This is more regulation then restriction.
 
The amendment 2904.1 under house bill 2233 does not state that there will be no permits issued after January 1, 2013.

It does state that the commission may issue a permit, upon application once all requirements are met, and that the commission at the discretion of the director can revoke or suspend any permit for any violation under 2904.1

So at this time, under current bill 2233 and amendment 2904.1 there is no ban. This is more regulation then restriction.

Basically they just want more tax money. Hopefully the extra revenue they will be getting will make them second guess ever banning them.

Here's the part that really scares me...

"Shelter, care and protection.--No permit provided for in

this section shall be granted until the commission is satisfied

that the provisions for housing and caring for the nonindigenous

or exotic reptile or amphibian and for protecting the public are

proper and adequate and in accordance with the standards

established by the commission"


So how will they know if you are providing the provisions for housing and caring, will they have someone personally inspect your house and enclosures?
 
The amendment 2904.1 under house bill 2233 does not state that there will be no permits issued after January 1, 2013.

It does state that the commission may issue a permit, upon application once all requirements are met, and that the commission at the discretion of the director can revoke or suspend any permit for any violation under 2904.1

So at this time, under current bill 2233 and amendment 2904.1 there is no ban. This is more regulation then restriction.

the law i was referring to in that post is this one

http://e-lobbyist.com/gaits/text/549454

If you notice what i said and who it was to, it was not referring to this bill(which is BS). The bill I posted(which seems ignored on this forum) does actually ban most mammals including cats and dogs, but oddly makes sugar gliders and hedgehogs legal plus a few other various animals.
 
the law i was referring to in that post is this one

http://e-lobbyist.com/gaits/text/549454

If you notice what i said and who it was to, it was not referring to this bill(which is BS). The bill I posted(which seems ignored on this forum) does actually ban most mammals including cats and dogs, but oddly makes sugar gliders and hedgehogs legal plus a few other various animals.


How did you come up with that interpretation?
 
Which part? Ignored or the ban? Ignored because not much traffic addressing it, unless I missed something(which is possible). Banned stuff because the law lists all nonindengginous animals besides those on a small list which were exempt, as needing a permit. It then goes on to say it will no longer issue permits. What do you call that? I call it a ban. If u need a permit and they wont issue them, its a ban.
 
They are clearly referring to what they define as "Exotic Wildlife". Nothing in your link even remotely suggests they are banning cats and dogs.
 
I know many people who read it the same as I. Lets review. The law says

all nonindigenous animals. There is no native(ie indigenous) cats or dogs, thus they fall into this category, no way to argue that. Lets review exempted species shall we. Lets!!

class Aves (birds), any member

of the families Equidae
(horses, asses and zebras), Camelidae
(camels, alpacas and llamas),
Cervidae (deer, moose and
elk), Bovidae (wild cattle and
spiral- horned antelopes), Muridae
(rats and mice), Chinchillidae
(chinchillas and viscachas),
Leporidae (rabbits and hares), 20110HB1398PN2997 - 2 -
Erinaceidae (hedgehogs and
moonrats), Petauridae (gliders
and
striped possums) or any member
of the species Mustela furo
(domestic ferrets) or Cavia
porcellus (domestic guinea

pigs).


So those are the exempt species. Hmmm. as both cats and dogs are nonnative, and not listed in the exemp species in the eyes of that law they are exotic species. Thus you would need a permit, and they will not be issueing them. Thus they will be banned. It doesnt matter what the laws intent it, it matters what it reads. And it reads cats and dogs are exotics and banne4 "Exotic wildlife d
 
I know many people who read it the same as I.

I know a lot of people who think the world will end in December. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

I am fairly confident in two things. The law you are referring to will pass, and dogs and cats are safe. I think your interpretation is wrong, but lets just wait and see shall we? Lets!

.........make that three things. I will still be here after December.
 
What about all the illegal people in Norristown where I grew up & other areas of PA. Lets get them out before we talk about making pets illegal.
 
I know a lot of people who think the world will end in December. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

I am fairly confident in two things. The law you are referring to will pass, and dogs and cats are safe. I think your interpretation is wrong, but lets just wait and see shall we? Lets!

.........make that three things. I will still be here after December.

I dont think they will enforce it on the dog cat part but that is what it reads and you simply cant argue that. Cats and dogs are noniningenous. Neither dogs nor cats are listed in exempt species. Ergo if the law passes they will be banned. Will they enforce it? Probably not, but it would be the law, plain and simple. Please if you think im that wrong, point out where my mistake is. I pointed to where is supports me, show me where it supports you. Instead of resorting to "its rediculous" use the very law I posted a show me how im wrong. Show me were it says cats or dogs are exempt in some way. Is there native dogs and cats I dont know about? Are they in the exempt species under a name I missed?
 
Show me where the proposed amendment, or the law it is trying to amend, considers dog and cats "wildlife". You, and apparently those you know, are over thinking the wording of the proposed amendment.

I am done here. You obviously think you can't be wrong and your "ridiculous" interpretation can't be argued, so what is the point in continuing this back and forth?
 
I have shown you repeatedly, but Ill try one last time to get you to understand. This is copied directly from the bill, found here-->
http://e-lobbyist.com/gaits/text/549454

Exotic wildlife." The phrase includes[, but is not limited
15
to, all bears, coyotes, lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars,
16
cheetahs, cougars, wolves and any crossbreed of these animals
17
which have similar characteristics in appearance or features.

1
The definition is applicable whether or not the birds or animals
2
were bred or reared in captivity or imported from another state
3
or nation.] all nonindigenous animals and the following,
4
regardless of whether the animals are bred or reared in
5
captivity or imported from another state or nation:
6
(1) All members of the order Primates (nonhuman
7
primates).
8
(2) All members of the family Ursidae (bears).
9
(3) All members of the species:
10
(i) Canis latrans (coyotes).
11
(ii) Canis lupus (gray wolves).
12
(iii) Canis rufus (red wolves).
13
(iv) Felis rufus (bobcat).
14
(v) Panthera leo (lions).
15
(vi) Panthera tigris (tigers).
16
(vii) Panthera pardus (leopards).
17
(viii) Panthera unica (snow leopards).
18
(ix) Neofelis nebulosa (clouded leopard).
19
(x) Panthera onca (jaguars).
20
(xi) Acinonyx jubatus (cheetahs).
21
(xii) Felis concolor (cougars).
22
(xiii) Any crossbreed of the animals specified in
23
this paragraph which have similar characteristics in
24
appearance or features.
25
The term shall not be construed to include any member of the
26
class Aves (birds), any member of the families Equidae (horses,
27
asses and zebras), Camelidae (camels, alpacas and llamas),
28
Cervidae (deer, moose and elk), Bovidae (wild cattle and spiral-
29
horned antelopes), Muridae (rats and mice), Chinchillidae
30
(chinchillas and viscachas), Leporidae (rabbits and hares),
20110HB1398PN2997
- 2 -

1
Erinaceidae (hedgehogs and moonrats), Petauridae (gliders and
2
striped possums) or any member of the species Mustela furo
3
(domestic ferrets) or Cavia porcellus (domestic guinea pigs).


In red is the part that applys. As you can see it says that all nonidingenous animals are considered exotic wildlife. In green you see the species that the law says are exempt. It takes the time to list cattle and horses but not cat nor dogs. Again, as they are not included in the list of exempt species and cats and dogs are nonindingenous animals, therefor they fall into that category in which the law says they are exotic wildlife.

The text is right in front of you. How can you argue it?? Its spelled out. Im sorry if you dont understand but its what the law says.

You obviously can't back up your argument of I'm wrong and just storm off. I will ask yet again, if you are that sure that I am wrong, point out the flaws in my argument. The law is right in front of you, show me where and how Im wrong and I am more than man enough to admit my mistake.
 
Perhaps if you were reading the most up-to-date version of the bill you would see that your interpretation is wrong.

http://e-lobbyist.com/gaits/text/620164

25
The term shall not be construed to include any member of the
26
class Aves (birds), any member of the families Equidae (horses,
27
asses and zebras), Camelidae (camels, alpacas and llamas),
28
Cervidae (deer, moose and elk), Bovidae (wild cattle and spiral-
29
horned antelopes), Muridae (rats and mice), Chinchillidae
30
(chinchillas and viscachas), Leporidae (rabbits and hares),
20110HB1398PN3296
- 2 -

1
Erinaceidae (hedgehogs and moonrats), Petauridae (gliders and
2
striped possums) or any member of the species Mustela furo
3
(domestic ferrets) or Cavia porcellus (domestic guinea pigs) OR
<--
4
ANY "DOMESTIC ANIMAL" AS THAT TERM IS DEFINED IN 18 PA.C.S. § 55511 (RELATING TO CRUELTY TO ANIMALS).

Pulled from 18 PA.C.S. § 55511

"DOMESTIC ANIMAL." Any dog, cat, equine animal, bovine animal, sheep, goat or porcine animal. "DOMESTIC FOWL." Any avis raised for food, hobby or sport.
 
ok- so i am completly confused- is it the permit speil or a ban ( since after some date no more permits will be given out? I am reading all this info, and its confusing- where is it saying after certian date no ermits will be given out?

would it be 25 per animal or what?
 
ok- so i am completly confused- is it the permit speil or a ban ( since after some date no more permits will be given out? I am reading all this info, and its confusing- where is it saying after certian date no ermits will be given out?

would it be 25 per animal or what?

As far as I understand I seen nothing where it said no permits will be givin out so if I'm wrong someone please correct me. It would be nice to have this clearly explained. I'm guessing they just want more tax money, is sounds like 25 per animal, not sure what constitutes a dealer for the 250 fee, maybe you will need a tax id number to pay that. My biggest concern is if they will have people actually come to your house to inspect your collection before giving a permit. I hope it's just send the 25$ per animal per year and get on with your life. As bad as that would suck maybe the extra tax income the state gets will make them second guess any bans that might consider in the future.
 
after I posted i did see a paragraph that did sound kinda confusing:

(1) Commencing on January 1, 2012 2013, the commission

27

shall not issue permits for the possession of exotic
28
wildlife, except as set forth in sections 2930 (relating to
29
propagating permits), 2962 (relating to exotic wildlife
30
dealer permits) and 2964(a) (relating to menagerie permits)

20110HB1398PN2997


- 3 -
nd 58 Pa. Code § 147.302 (relating to general).


However- 25$ per animal is rediculous- i have a breeding collection- so its gonna be expensive. And for what reason? i guess they have to suck what money they can get b/c they are having money issues..

Yeah, them looking at my place has its drawbacks.. but its not like I have anything to hide... My snakes are housed properly- but how can I trust the people inspecting know proper knowledge? Are rack systems gonna be considered secure by them? Or are they gonna think its inhumane that the bps are kept in the racks despite the issues keeping in tanks? how often do they have to check your place?

t just draws up too many questions.... Is there any talk of when this is gonna be set in place? Any word from USARK?
 
ok- so i am completly confused- is it the permit speil or a ban ( since after some date no more permits will be given out? I am reading all this info, and its confusing- where is it saying after certian date no ermits will be given out?

would it be 25 per animal or what?

The no permits comment was for furry animals not herps. Sorry for the confusion. Im under the impression that its $25 per animal but could be wrong. For my caiman den alone that at one point in time would have been $475 yearly. and where does it list whats acceptable for caging?
 
I'm pretty sure the bill that will not allow permits after jan 2013 is HB 1398, I believe and hope this is just for large exotics such as lions tigers and such, I don't see anything in that bill mentioning reptiles specifically. There a bll HB 2233 that is specifically for reptile that state that a 25$ fee per animal will be needed for a permit, it makes no mention that they will not be issued after jan 2013 but states that that's when the law will implemented.

It seems that reptile keepers are safe for now, I hope this is the case anyway, I'll take a tax over a ban.
 
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