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More Mini-Dictators

On the other hand, I presented what I feel is good and well researched veterinary information about the current state of the venomoid industry, and I was cursed out in foul language and called names for it. So you'll forgive me if my initial impression is less than 100% positive.
I disagree with you on this point.
I saw no one attacking YOU. What I did see was attacks on your "lapdogs" to use Seamus' term. And the only foul language I saw was edited. The only people attacked were the rabid's anti's. The only name calling was directed towards them as well. Call it bad blood, but whenever I even see BWSmith post, I can guarantee I will not respong in a positive manner.
As for Gregg, Mustangrde, Tom (Not Hawke) and Myself, we all lost our tempers. I think we can all agree with that. I should stick with Hawkemans and be more hesitant to jump in, but hindsight is 20/20. The discussion turned into a junior high name calling contest and trying to use big names to back up our positions. And that came from both sides, not just the longtime BCF members.
I actually think that venomoid surgery may just have to be one of the off limit topics. I cant think of a single forum where it can even be discussed without it turning into a pissing match.

Also - no one should be using my name in defense of me or their own position. My name should only appear in my threads...please.
Like I said in the email, I am sorry about that.

It's a shame it came down to making it to this forum. I think had this happened on a non-show weekend, it would have stopped 30 minutes after it started.
Again, MsTT, I apologize if you think you were being attacked. I was attacking Gregg and BW, but you had not posted anything that was even debatable. I dont know if you received it, but I also sent you an email with another apology.
 
Guys and Girls,

I think we all know that Randy was not trying to insult anyone, and that Tanith didn't do anything wrong either. The only real problem here is Seamus Haley trying to stir up crap as usual.

Randy didn't say that what she posted from her site was wrong, but simply that what Tanith posted was taken from that site verbatim. He also didn't use the word plagiarism...that was just Seamus blowing things way out of proportion, which he is known to do. Randy's one and only "mistake" in that thread is that he didn't know she was the owner of the site...which is because she admittedly wasn't trying to make very apparent. For that, I respect Tanith. Very humble in my opinion and I can see her reservatiohs about claiming the site as her own. It would have looked very self serving. At the same time, I can totally understand the frustration on Randy's part.

So, for that one simple mistake, Seamus Haley, being the not-so-mature person that he is, took that little mistake and ran with it...aimlessly and with no purpose, much like Forest Gump. As usual, he twisted and distorted Randy's words to his liking and then put words (that he doesn't even know how to spell...like plagiarising, for example) in Randy's mouth on top of all that.

For those of you that don't know Seamus, he will take anything you say and twist it into anything he wants, and then try to prove to you that whatever crap he came up with was your real intent. The scary part is, he really believes the crazy $hit that he comes up with.

Anyway, the point is that Seamus is a headcase, the thread was blown way out of proportion, and we should all drop this and let Seamus go cause trouble for someone else.
 
On the other hand, I presented what I feel is good and well researched veterinary information about the current state of the venomoid industry, and I was cursed out in foul language and called names for it. So you'll forgive me if my initial impression is less than 100% positive.

...by me or any other lonstanding BCF member? I can only speak for myself when saying that I never cursed you (that is taken VERY seriously in my belief system). I just provided, like I have in MANY OTHER FORUMS, my unique experience set relative to the issue in quesiton.

I was accused of proporting a "MYTH" and I responded accordingly. I have many Ph.D.'s on my side as per my venomoid training. I have nothing to fear from a few "experienced venomous handlers" who happen to proport their hypotheses online. I am solid in my training and no amount of trolling will adjust my resolve.

Tom
 
IanV said:
I disagree with you on this point.
I saw no one attacking YOU. What I did see was attacks on your "lapdogs" to use Seamus' term. And the only foul language I saw was edited.

It is unfortunate (in some ways) that the original thread has gone away, because now no one can verify what was and wasn't said there.

What was said to me was (forgive me if this is not an exact quote) "Are you trying to help or are you just trying to be an a$shole?" In other replies to my posts there were similarly derogatory comments including the PETA remarks. I believed that they were referring to me specifically because they quoted some of what I had written. I hope my memory isn't failing me on this point however.

I do not have a copy of any of the posts, so I'm afraid it's a bit pointless to continue scratching our heads and trying to remember who said what. I appreciate your statement clarifying your position; no apology is necessary since you were not addressing me in the first place.
 
What was said to me was (forgive me if this is not an exact quote) "Are you trying to help or are you just trying to be an a$shole?"
I am almost 100% certain that that was aimed at Gregg...or maybe BWSmith. I dont remember who posted it (that was a pretty long thread), but I am pretty certain it was not aimed at you. If it was, then I can probably guess there would be an apology.
This thing got out of hand FAST. Unfortunatly a lot of us lost that chance to really learn the truths...but I guess it will come up again in a month...it always does.


In other replies to my posts there were similarly derogatory comments including the PETA remarks
I can promise you that those were NOT aimed at you. I had no idea who you were until a day or two ago, but you weren't spouting off at the mouth with no evidence.
by me or any other lonstanding BCF member?
Tom, the only cursing I saw was someone that type @$$hole...which is certainly crude and uncalled for, but like I said, I think it was pointed at someone who had it coming. I am sure I probably let a few go myself, but not directed towards MsTT.
I think we all know that Randy was not trying to insult anyone, and that Tanith didn't do anything wrong either.
Well, I doesn't take much though to know that neither of them did anything wrong. However, I did, and I publically apologize for helping stir that hornets nest.

IAN
 
Seamus Haley said:
Simple fact of the matter is that Randy displayed a piss-poor attitude towards a number of "new" posters on the venomoid thread and his subsequent posts in the Black Knight thread seemed to be motivated by a personal need to "one up" the new group. My guess was and continues to be that he felt threatened in some manner, as if his position as an unquestionable authority on all things herpetological was being challenged. This is simply a tentative conclusion I have formed based off the way his posts read and the attitude he comes across with. Nor am I alone in forming this impression.

Trying to guess other people's motivations generally leads to more trouble than it's worth. I agree that the impression you got was shared by several people who got quite outraged on my behalf. I hope that this impression can now be corrected.

Randy said,

"If someone was to cut and paste excerpts from your site (happens all the time), it would make them appear to have knowledge they do not have. That creates a false sense of reliability concerning that person's level of experience and could easily lead to poor information being passed on and believed."

I think that is a sound and reasonable policy. Because of my own personal choices, Randy had no real way of knowing that the site was mine. He needed to make sure that somebody was not stealing material from the Snake Getters site and presenting it as their own. This is something I can hardly object to. He did not accuse anyone of plagiarism, but merely stated that the material was identical to a page found on this site.

What I find even funnier is that I had honestly forgotten that this page existed. SG is a very large site and it's been up for years. So I'm actually surprised that my current recap of the Nix/Rid-Lice topic was similar enough to what I had written several years ago to be recognizable. I guess I'm just that pedantic, didactic and boringly repetitive. LOL


Randy (In his self important omniscience) accused Tanith of plagarizing from her own website. That's just plain funny.

But he didn't. He just pointed out that what I said was the same thing as a site he already had bookmarked, and left it open to my explanation. He stated only the simple truth, and it could quite easily have been someone stealing from my site or pretending to be me. It's happened before. So as I see it, he was actually protecting my interests. How can I have a problem with that?
 
snakegetters said:
It is unfortunate (in some ways) that the original thread has gone away, because now no one can verify what was and wasn't said there.

Alas, the thread is not gone...it's just not visible. ;)

I will review the thread (I have not read it all, and I was not the one who removed it from view) and once I have made sure that there is not anything horribly inappropriate, then I will place it back for public viewing. Of course it will remain locked. ;):)
 
IanV said:
Tom, the only cursing I saw was someone that type @$$hole...which is certainly crude and uncalled for, but like I said, I think it was pointed at someone who had it coming. I am sure I probably let a few go myself, but not directed towards MsTT.

Trust me on this - the a$$hole remark was aimed directly at me. I am very sure of my memory of that subject, because it was directly below a quote of my post and I had another exchange with the poster where I quoted it back.

Basically I suggested that I could ask the same question of the poster, only I didn't consider that degree of rudeness to be appropriate in a public forum.
 
I will review the thread (I have not read it all, and I was not the one who removed it from view) and once I have made sure that there is not anything horribly inappropriate, then I will place it back for public viewing. Of course it will remain locked
Nothing horribly inappropriate, but a lot of childish name calling. I am sure that all of us involved can agree with that.

Trust me on this - the a$$hole remark was aimed directly at me. I am very sure of my memory of that subject, because it was directly below a quote of my post and I had another exchange with the poster where I quoted it back.
I dont remember that part well enough, and I trust you so I will go along with it. I dont remember me saying it, but if it was, I whole-heatedly apologize.
This mess has become MUCH more than it should have in the first place.

IAN
 
Hawkeman said:
[BI was accused of proporting a "MYTH" and I responded accordingly. I have many Ph.D.'s on my side as per my venomoid training. I have nothing to fear from a few "experienced venomous handlers" who happen to proport their hypotheses online. I am solid in my training and no amount of trolling will adjust my resolve.[/B]

I should point out that the surgeon who popularized the attempted surgical removal of rattlesnake venom from an envenomation site had lots of degrees. But several decades of accumulated data has demonstrated that his hypothesis was not only wrong but horribly damaging to a great many patients without accruing any health benefit whatsoever. So a PhD is not necessarily a guarantee of right or wrong, it just raises the probability that the data is at least being considered intelligently.

I do believe firmly that it is a myth that you can be adequately trained to handle venomous snakes by purchasing a venomoid and playing with it at home. In the context of a formal training program a venomoid is adequate but still not the best choice in my experience. If I had a choice between using a rescued long term captive venomoid and a freshly wild caught nonvenomous act-alike, I would use the animal most likely to "act out" and create a physical challenge for the handler. Additionally nonvenomous snakes tend to be physically stronger and faster than their venomous counterparts because they do not have the evolutionary advantage of venom to capture prey. I honestly believe that this is a better and more effective training experience.

In my experience complacency is responsible for a lot of bites, and it is very easy to get complacent if you are handling long term captive animals that have habituated to people. Most venomous snakes calm down and stop trying to bite or to struggle, though there are some notable species exceptions. A handler who has trained only on relatively calm, habituated snakes will not be ready to deal with a situation where a snake is truly "giving its all" in a panic attempt to bite or escape.

The bottom line here is not that a venomoid is likely to behave differently from any other long term captive snake, or that venomoids can never be used in training programs. They are not always the best choice for purely practical reasons, and it is unethical to hurt and cripple an animal for the purposes of a training program if the same goals can be accomplished even more effectively using nonvenomous analogues.
 
I ask again... If the quote combined with the post weren't showing an embarassing situation, why was there a problem with them being in my signature line?

Just reposting this so it doesn't get lost.

The obvious answer would be that the moderators over there formed a conclusion that I was attempting to stir up trouble based on the way they had read the signature line... There might be an entirely seperate explanation, but this one seems most logical.

How exactly is that different from me making an inference that Randy was suggesting Tanith was plagarizing?

Bottom line is that I feel the demand that I remove the line from my signature wasn't warranted, the moderators felt it was and took action. I see this as being simply a continuation of the unpleasant attitude a good number of long time posters displayed in the Venomoid thread and reported it on this forum so that others could get an idea of the kind of welcome they might be getting. As it's a private forum it's difficult to use words like "Just" or "Right" and the moderators were well within their powers to take any action they saw fit... HOWEVER it's also the choice of any given individual if they wish to participate in an environment where there are members of the moderation "staff" who will utilize the powers they have been given to make themselves look better and remove anyone who might in any manner be opposed to their views. There are other forums where such events have taken place and the public outcry was pretty big... Obviously this isn't identical or nearly as widespread as the situations in other forums, which is why the word "mini" is involved.

By the way Tanith, you'll notice that now you're known as a "Name" (Not something you pushed, I know), you're getting a lot more "respect" (Meaning "Butt kissing") from the fawning lapdog crowd. Just watch to make sure they don't get too friendly with your shins. When you were simply another poster, none of them saw anything wrong with being rude and disrespectful of your views. Now that you are the author of a website that's used as a credible information source, it's changed a bit.
 
Seamus Haley said:
By the way Tanith, you'll notice that now you're known as a "Name" (Not something you pushed, I know), you're getting a lot more "respect" (Meaning "Butt kissing") from the fawning lapdog crowd. Just watch to make sure they don't get too friendly with your shins. When you were simply another poster, none of them saw anything wrong with being rude and disrespectful of your views. Now that you are the author of a website that's used as a credible information source, it's changed a bit.

No Seamus...that's not it at all. People develop respect for someone who presents their positions in an intelligent, logical, and well thought out manner. Tanith has earned my respect based on those kind of criteria...it has absolutely nothing to do with her having a website. It's unfortunate that you can't discern the difference.
 
By the way Tanith, you'll notice that now you're known as a "Name" (Not something you pushed, I know), you're getting a lot more "respect" (Meaning "Butt kissing") from the fawning lapdog crowd. Just watch to make sure they don't get too friendly with your shins. When you were simply another poster, none of them saw anything wrong with being rude and disrespectful of your views. Now that you are the author of a website that's used as a credible information source, it's changed a bit.

Really Seamus? What is with your veiled intentions here? Why don't you come out and say my name?
Never in any thread was I rude to Tanith. Even before I knew that she was "a name". I still have NO idea "who" she is, but obviously she knows what she is talking about, which is something you can't say.

BTW, what was so embarasing of my quote? Straight and simple, Lyncheyez is a scientist as he pointed out.
Most people could see that he was trying to help, but I guess that is just to simple for you to realize.
Please let this die now.

IAN
 
Seamus Haley said:
The obvious answer would be that the moderators over there formed a conclusion that I was attempting to stir up trouble based on the way they had read the signature line... There might be an entirely seperate explanation, but this one seems most logical.

How exactly is that different from me making an inference that Randy was suggesting Tanith was plagarizing?

Bottom line is that I feel the demand that I remove the line from my signature wasn't warranted, the moderators felt it was and took action.

Seamus,
The real reason that you were banned from the site was that even after I had emailed you and said, "I will not allow you to join this site and begin mocking it's moderators," you persisted in doing so. In fact, your next two posts were both attacks against one of the moderators. You even went so far as to refer to a mods as a "censoring, drivel spewing, brain addled mini-dictator." If that's not "stiring trouble" then I don't know what is.

Bottom line...it was your inability to behave in a civil manner that got you banned...how many times has that happened to you now?
 
No Seamus...that's not it at all. People develop respect for someone who presents their positions in an intelligent, logical, and well thought out manner.

To the best of my current knowledge the Venomoid thread is still hidden... However if I recall correctly the original posts made by Scott, Brian, B.W. and Tanith were all presented in an intelligent, logical and well thought out manner... But certainly did not get a respectful response.

Tanith has earned my respect based on those kind of criteria

YOUR respect certainly. Can you be as altruistic about the change in attitude shown by others? I suspect if you answer honestly you'd be forced to admitt that *some* of the attitude realignments were based on the fact that she's well known rather than any of the more noble sentiments expressed. While Tanith deserves all the respect anyone can possibly give her, I think name reccognition has more to do with the fairly sudden change in attitude where certain individuals are concerned.

it has absolutely nothing to do with her having a website. It's unfortunate that you can't discern the difference.

So the switch from immediately dismissing her comments and calling her an a$$hole weren't in ANY WAY related to the fact that she has a website? Funny how she was still being treated in a dismissive manner until that came to light, isn't it? Must be a huge coincidence.

BTW, what was so embarasing of my quote? Straight and simple, Lyncheyez is a scientist as he pointed out

Okay then... why was I ordered to remove it? Either he was embarassed about the way he came off, which does give an impression of accusation when read, intended or not- which explains why he demanded it be removed... or there's nothing whatsoever wrong with any of it and the demand never should have been made to start. Can't have it both ways.
 
Ack. This is deeply embarrassing. I keep a low profile on purpose because I don't want to be "A Name". Who I am is completely unimportant. The information I present should stand on its own and be debated on its own merits, with nobody's ego attached. The information matters; I don't. Whether somebody likes me or not or agrees with my politics or not should be irrelevant to the fact that they can check into my site and learn to medicate and assist feed their venomous snakes safely. That's what's really important, and when the ego stuff gets in the way it's not healthy for the snakes.

I'm going to go hide now. **slithers off into a hide box** You can toss in some dead mice but please quit pulling me out by the tail. LOL
 
Can you be as altruistic about the change in attitude shown by others?
I cannot speak for others, but I do happen to know a few of the others pretty well, and they don't care WHO it is. Respect is earned, not bought. There are actually a few big names out there that I have no respect for.

To the best of my current knowledge the Venomoid thread is still hidden... However if I recall correctly the original posts made by Scott, Brian, B.W. and Tanith were all presented in an intelligent, logical and well thought out manner... But certainly did not get a respectful response
Dr. Owens has pointed out that the thread is still hidden. Tanith did post in an intelligent, logical manner. But the others did not (I have already pointed out that BWSmith could say just about anything and I have to jump on it..so I dont remember much of what he posted). However, Gregg and Mustangrde posted in the same immature matter as myself, letting opinions get in the way of facts.

Okay then... why was I ordered to remove it?
Why did you feel the need to post it around the net?
Becuase it was ONLY to cause problems.

Being banned from a site is not a badge to wear with honour. I have seen very few people banned from the BCF, but all that have been deserved it in every way.

Here is a link about trolls:
http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm
You certainly fit under the first three categories on the site.

If Tanith isn't upset, and no one else seems to be, why keep stiring the fire? Apologies have been made by those that should have made them, and it seems that no one else has a problem but yourself.

Ian
 
Also, so you know. I have removed the post that you allude to in your quote.
It was just to cause trouble, and I will NOT be used in your little games.

IAN
 
Bottom line...it was your inability to behave in a civil manner that got you banned...how many times has that happened to you now?

Er... twice. This latest event on the Bob Clark forums (despite one posters accusation that I had been banned before... I hadn't) and once from Kingsnake.

The kingsnake situation was actually prior to most the ruckus over there and was caused because I made a single post detailing the similarities between Melissa Kaplan's stance surrounding the pet trade and that expressed by extremist groups. It was a one shot, one time thing done when she was still an active moderator over there and done in direct response to an attack she made on the pet industry in general (with false numbers about import deaths, refuted by CITES statistics). Which, incidentally made the attacks by BC forum members accusing me (and others) of "Peta-esque" behavior all the more amusing. This may have actually been reversed at some point too, as I believe I may have a funtional login over there again, although I switched ISPs at some point in between and never got any emails about the situation.

In both cases I felt more than justified in my position. Heck, the post which Randy decided to edit said something along the lines of "That's the funniest thing I've read in months." which certainly isn't high on the list of agressive, combatant statements, is it? My first post certainly was, because by the time I had read the venomoid thread, one of the MODERATORS was already acting in an extremely disrespectful manner to one person I consider something of a friend and several others I respected. Randy's behavior was way out of line... heck, Ian even admits that the behavior of a number of posters was an ego driven mistake in the apology post he wrote.

Look at the situation from outside for a moment... you see someone engaged in what can only be called a flame war/fight and there's a certain predisposition towards one camp among the combatants... When you see someone who had so reccently been involved and who's behavior you didn't approve of get taken down a peg or two, it's amusing.

First thing I'd like to do is perhaps get everyone to agree that Randy came off as being accusatory. It may not have been intentioned perhaps, but it's certainly the first impression given by his post when taken contextually. When I think I've caught someone plagarizing I respond in the same manner, it's normal to be a bit agressive in that situation.

In return for an admital of this, I'm willing to state outright that I put the quote and link there because they made him look foolish. He had just finished a massive ego-trip where he (and others) had abused the ideas and thoughts expressed by others, simply because they didn't know who they were. I do not however think that reminding someone of a bit of humble pie is justification for demanding the line be edited. It took a situation which would have easily gone away within a day or two and blew it into something much larger. Editing my post took this a few steps further, my words are MY choice and represent what I want to be judged on. Having someone else remove them when they aren't vulgar, abusive or in violation of a forum's rules (Under a realistic interpretation) crosses lines. It's Barringer/Stinso behavior.

When it turns out it's Tanith's page though, rather than perhaps a sheepish reply or seeing the comedy inherent in the exchange himself, his response comes across like he has to accuse her of SOMETHING so he goes after her for not posting a link. Had he responded in a different manner, I likely wouldn't have bothered putting the line in my signature.

The end result is really as follows... I think that the BC forums lost a number of people who could potentially have been valuable and active members of the community due to the ego of an individual given the power to moderate. I obviously won't be participating of course, but I doubt that Brian, Scott or B.W. will be as active and willing to add to discussions as they might otherwise have been. If nothing else, the fact that the entire episode resulted in Ian apologizing to a few of the people who were treated so poorly as new posters, then some good has come of it. If Randy (and a few others) will just do the same thing then it might even turn out to have a net positive result. Hopefully it will also shake up the attitudes over there a bit... it's easy to fall into a mentality where those who are long time posters are automatically credible... but this doesn't always make them more credible or knowledgeable than a new poster on every subject. Nor does it mean that new posters have nothing to add to the community.
 
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