Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
That's quite alright, I've got a copy saved for my own amusement.
It does kinda look a bit funny when you do that though, people are left with no choice but to draw their own conclusions about the reasons for the edit.
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More Mini-Dictators
- Thread starter Seamus Haley
- Start date
That's quite alright, I've got a copy saved for my own amusement.
It does kinda look a bit funny when you do that though, people are left with no choice but to draw their own conclusions about the reasons for the edit.
IanV
New member
Why would people have to draw their own conclusion? You say you have your own copy (I trully am sorry your life is so boring)
I stated why I deleted it: it fuels your little games, and you only did it because you have a personal vendetta against the BCF and you attack it any way you can.
IAN
I stated why I deleted it: it fuels your little games, and you only did it because you have a personal vendetta against the BCF and you attack it any way you can.
IAN
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
You make it sound like I've been doing this for years...
What exactly is my personal vendetta based on? Why would I be angry at an entire forum full of people? If I wanted to attack a forum, wouldn't I do more than write a few posts on other message boards?
snakegetters
Aunty Venom
Seamus Haley said:
I agree, it looked bad. I thought the same thing myself. But I didn't know for sure, so I asked for an explanation instead of jumping to conclusions. The explanation I got satisfied me. I wish it would satisfy everyone else. This whole exchange has been painfully embarrassing. It makes me want to crawl into a hide box and not come out in public any more.
I think it would have been a good idea for Randy to post the explanation in the original thread so that it didn't look so bad. I understand why people jumped to the conclusions that they did. But it was a mistake, and it's over, and he's explained, and other people have apologized. Can we be done yet? Please?
Dr Owens
New member
snakegetters said:
Tanith,
You, like most other intelligent, reasonable, logically thinking individuals see this thread for what it really is...unfortunately, people like Seamus get their kicks doing this sort of thing. The article on Internet Trolls that Ian referenced earlier provides a good explaination of people like this. Most of the time the best response is no response...which is why I haven't responded to Seamus' reply to my last post. You just can't argue with stupidity.
Mustangrde1
Sistrurus Motel "Welcome"
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2003
- Messages
- 364
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- That information is no ones business
Call me educated from past dealing with venomoid makers as i have been heavily researching this for over a year but i have got in the habit of saving threads and possible info to disk to help gather information. People seam to have short memories.
Mustangrde1
Hatchling
6 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 05:22:34 AM
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I am curious to how many of the people here keep venomous?
Next the latest stats on venomoid surgeries performed are NOT by Veterinary Surgeons but back yard hack that purchased most their supplies from Home Depot or Lowes. There is approximately a 90% mortality rate on animals that have gone under their knife this is fact and confirmed on several occasions.
Third there are Many State and Federal laws reguarding pain and suffering and survival surgeries. There are standards of law for medical surgery from pre-op ,surgery and postopperative care along with requirements for medical records to be kept. A licensed qualified Veterinary Surgeon must keep these records. The back yard butcher does not.Then again they are breaking laws so what do they care anyway.
The myth that training with a venomoid prepares you for the real hot is easily dispelled as you know its not a hot thus may and do take chances you would never with a true hot.Combined with the lack of credable data on just how much the venoms play in to proper digestion of prey removing the glands could possibly be determental to digestion.
Now there are also many cases of these animals again becoming fully capable of a venomous bite because the surgery was not completed 100% succesfully.Care to take a bite from a Daboia Russelli in your state with no antivenom around???
It strikes me as sickening that people would take away the beauty of these animals so they can say they own one or handle one. You love the animal for what it is naturally. So why would you want to put 9 out of 10 do death so you can have the 1 survivor. Either love them for what they are and learn how to work with them or stick to balls and corns.
Lyncheyez
Forum Moderator
USA
5282 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 1:04:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is approximately a 90% mortality rate on animals that have gone under their knife this is fact and confirmed on several occasions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please post the information that was used to come to that (absurd) conclusion, where that information was gathered, or even a link to it. To paraphrase the great imbibing one “94.3% of all statistical data is made up on the spot”.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Combined with the lack of credable data on just how much the venoms play in to proper digestion of prey removing the glands could possibly be determental to digestion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course there's plenty of data related to longevity after surgery and digestive ability out there...only none of it supports your opinions.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The myth that training with a venomoid prepares you for the real hot is easily dispelled as you know its not a hot thus may and do take chances you would never with a true hot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's already been covered here by credible people…
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now there are also many cases of these animals again becoming fully capable of a venomous bite because the surgery was not completed 100% succesfully
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, please show us these cases? Show us where this data is...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It strikes me as sickening that people would take away the beauty of these animals so they can say they own one or handle one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sickens me that people continually pass themselves off as knowledgeable on subjects where they simply confuse “unsupported opinions” and “data” or “facts”.
-Randy
NeoChat
Ian
Reptile Expert
Tonga
2169 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 2:17:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
has already been hurt and crippled by human greed and impatience
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does it make me greedy or impatient to want a venomoid? The fact that I value my life and I cant get AV for exotic species in my state?
It sounds like people are just letting their emotions get the better of them with this argument.
Randy has stated, and will probably continue to state, that many qualified people do perform these surgeries. If the person is qualified, and you feel like getting one, go for it.
It's like the people I work with that call me ignorant and a moron because I dont agree with their views about the war in Iraq (i support it, and I support the president) Calling someone impatient and greedy is the same thing, just a different subject.
With that being said, anyone that doesn't agree with me has a small wiener, and smells strongly of fish.
IAN
www.slicesoflight.com
"I'm not one to criticize or pass judgment, but if there is a bigger group of morons than the folks at PETA, I will eat my hat"-Eric D. Snider
Mustangrde1
Hatchling
6 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 2:50:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a Hot keeper of 16 years I currently have over 50 venomous in my collection I have been researching and trying to compile data on venomoids for over a year.I do venomous rescues and rehabilitaion, so before you shoot off about people not having knowledge or fact try getting yours first. Or is it you can not ask politly for information and wish to mudsling before you know anything about the person.
Fact 1, 20 RINKALS COBRAS sold to a hack artist in Oregon 2 survived this is verified by several people unfortunately UNLICENSED Hackers do not keep the Medical Records REQUIRED BY LAW and getting information out of them is very hard as what they are doing is Illegal.Want facts of try a Cruelty to Animals web search for a state , then go to APHIS and look up surgical requirements.
Next Venom related to Digestion Data is at best incomplete. If you have Data that shows diffrent Post it i will be glad to read it.
As to Them becoming hot again try a simple search If that dont work I can and will most gladly provide a { very credable Name to verify} as you seam hung up on Named People for credentals.
Now I fully admit i became very hot at how this was handled. But when a person comes to a site with information it is best to ask politley for information instead of making degrading statements to them. I did not mention who MsTT is out of respect for her as i know she is a private person. But it does look to me that now she is {known} she is getting much more respect. Sorry if it makes Seamus look right in this and HE is AN ARROGANT POMPASS ASS at time but others he is dead right on. I know ive wanted to choke the living hell out of him more then one time. Troll he is not ASS he deffinately is. Still he as well as anyone should be treated with more respect then many of us received on our first visit to your site. You have done nothing but aileanate people who could be very productive.
This is a shame as you could have had new members with very good knowledge to aid your members and also learn from them. BAD SITUATION all around.
One final note when Ray hunter came on and Posted direct first hand knowledge of 1 case of venomoid surgery and its effects the thread was closed that to me was very fishy.
cobraman
Hatchling
USA
1 Posts Posted - 03/21/2004 : 3:37:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings all, My name is Ray Hunter. I was a co-owner of Exotic Reptiles Jungle, but have recently broke away to start a new company with Real Estate support services, and buying and selling property. I still assist Ricky Duffield at Exotic Reptiles Jungle with the venomous he buys and sells, but otherwise do not represent ERJ in my comments or opinions.
Exotic Reptiles Jungle sent off 10 venomous snakes to be devenomized about a year and a half ago. ***for the record, let me state that I am personally against venomoids, and had nothing to do with the decisions involving ERJ selling venomoids. I did put an immediate stop to it when I became a partner in the company. I feel that if you want to own a venomoid snake, you have as much right to do so as I have to own venomous snakes, but I do think the procedure should be performed by a qualified vet.*** anyway, of the 10 animals sent, the 9 foot LTC black mamba died during the procedure, 2 cobras were returned with infections and died (and these were not the same cobras we sent, by the way), 2 green mambas came back with infections and died, 1 monocle cobra was returned with an infection but was medicated and lived, and the Papaun Black snake was returned in good condition, BUT it was still hot!!! I did venom extraction in the presence of a witness to confirm my suspicions. The snake was to have it's venom glands removed and replaced with implants, but was returned hot. This could have been a bad situation for someone if I had not noticed how quickly mice were dead after the snake bit them. The bottom line of all that is that out of 10 snakes:
1 died during procedure
4 died of post op infections
1 was treated for infection and lived
1 was still hot after "surgery"
and
3 were returned ok, and sold
Not a very good percentage of succuess on that deal.
Again, I don't feel that I have anymore right to tell you that you can not have venomoids than you have the right to tell me I can not have hot snakes. If it is necessary to alter a venomous snake, I feel it should be done with (1) Reason, (2)regard to the animal, and (3) properly by a qualified vet.
Just my feelings on this issue.
Blessings all!
Be Blessed!
Ray Hunter
Hunter Serpentology
Yes i did not paste all the thread as the mudslinging got to far out of control. I do not want to see it here as well but i did post realvant info atleast pertaining to myself. I appologised on that site if i took things about my original post wrong but then more name calling came so I have to wonder about it. I again appologise for any miss fealings but A$$HOLES AND PETA ESQUE.. THOSE ARE VERY OFFENSIVE. Hard not to take offense to that.
Perhaps we can all say we were wrong in our actions and try to have a logical discussion on this subject again. But first you have to say im willing to listen to all sides of the story. Tanith and I spoke recently on a unrealted subject and she did point me out a few things on venom vs digestion where i feal she is correct and i was incorrect. I can be corrected and I was.
I am truly sorry for my action on that site and hope to do better with my temper in the future. However name calling will normally get a bad responce.
Sorry for grammar and spelling but is way to damn early.
Scott Bice
Mustangrde1
Hatchling
6 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 05:22:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am curious to how many of the people here keep venomous?
Next the latest stats on venomoid surgeries performed are NOT by Veterinary Surgeons but back yard hack that purchased most their supplies from Home Depot or Lowes. There is approximately a 90% mortality rate on animals that have gone under their knife this is fact and confirmed on several occasions.
Third there are Many State and Federal laws reguarding pain and suffering and survival surgeries. There are standards of law for medical surgery from pre-op ,surgery and postopperative care along with requirements for medical records to be kept. A licensed qualified Veterinary Surgeon must keep these records. The back yard butcher does not.Then again they are breaking laws so what do they care anyway.
The myth that training with a venomoid prepares you for the real hot is easily dispelled as you know its not a hot thus may and do take chances you would never with a true hot.Combined with the lack of credable data on just how much the venoms play in to proper digestion of prey removing the glands could possibly be determental to digestion.
Now there are also many cases of these animals again becoming fully capable of a venomous bite because the surgery was not completed 100% succesfully.Care to take a bite from a Daboia Russelli in your state with no antivenom around???
It strikes me as sickening that people would take away the beauty of these animals so they can say they own one or handle one. You love the animal for what it is naturally. So why would you want to put 9 out of 10 do death so you can have the 1 survivor. Either love them for what they are and learn how to work with them or stick to balls and corns.
Lyncheyez
Forum Moderator
USA
5282 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 1:04:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is approximately a 90% mortality rate on animals that have gone under their knife this is fact and confirmed on several occasions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please post the information that was used to come to that (absurd) conclusion, where that information was gathered, or even a link to it. To paraphrase the great imbibing one “94.3% of all statistical data is made up on the spot”.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Combined with the lack of credable data on just how much the venoms play in to proper digestion of prey removing the glands could possibly be determental to digestion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course there's plenty of data related to longevity after surgery and digestive ability out there...only none of it supports your opinions.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The myth that training with a venomoid prepares you for the real hot is easily dispelled as you know its not a hot thus may and do take chances you would never with a true hot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's already been covered here by credible people…
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now there are also many cases of these animals again becoming fully capable of a venomous bite because the surgery was not completed 100% succesfully
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, please show us these cases? Show us where this data is...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It strikes me as sickening that people would take away the beauty of these animals so they can say they own one or handle one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sickens me that people continually pass themselves off as knowledgeable on subjects where they simply confuse “unsupported opinions” and “data” or “facts”.
-Randy
NeoChat
Ian
Reptile Expert
Tonga
2169 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 2:17:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
has already been hurt and crippled by human greed and impatience
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does it make me greedy or impatient to want a venomoid? The fact that I value my life and I cant get AV for exotic species in my state?
It sounds like people are just letting their emotions get the better of them with this argument.
Randy has stated, and will probably continue to state, that many qualified people do perform these surgeries. If the person is qualified, and you feel like getting one, go for it.
It's like the people I work with that call me ignorant and a moron because I dont agree with their views about the war in Iraq (i support it, and I support the president) Calling someone impatient and greedy is the same thing, just a different subject.
With that being said, anyone that doesn't agree with me has a small wiener, and smells strongly of fish.
IAN
www.slicesoflight.com
"I'm not one to criticize or pass judgment, but if there is a bigger group of morons than the folks at PETA, I will eat my hat"-Eric D. Snider
Mustangrde1
Hatchling
6 Posts Posted - 03/18/2004 : 2:50:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a Hot keeper of 16 years I currently have over 50 venomous in my collection I have been researching and trying to compile data on venomoids for over a year.I do venomous rescues and rehabilitaion, so before you shoot off about people not having knowledge or fact try getting yours first. Or is it you can not ask politly for information and wish to mudsling before you know anything about the person.
Fact 1, 20 RINKALS COBRAS sold to a hack artist in Oregon 2 survived this is verified by several people unfortunately UNLICENSED Hackers do not keep the Medical Records REQUIRED BY LAW and getting information out of them is very hard as what they are doing is Illegal.Want facts of try a Cruelty to Animals web search for a state , then go to APHIS and look up surgical requirements.
Next Venom related to Digestion Data is at best incomplete. If you have Data that shows diffrent Post it i will be glad to read it.
As to Them becoming hot again try a simple search If that dont work I can and will most gladly provide a { very credable Name to verify} as you seam hung up on Named People for credentals.
Now I fully admit i became very hot at how this was handled. But when a person comes to a site with information it is best to ask politley for information instead of making degrading statements to them. I did not mention who MsTT is out of respect for her as i know she is a private person. But it does look to me that now she is {known} she is getting much more respect. Sorry if it makes Seamus look right in this and HE is AN ARROGANT POMPASS ASS at time but others he is dead right on. I know ive wanted to choke the living hell out of him more then one time. Troll he is not ASS he deffinately is. Still he as well as anyone should be treated with more respect then many of us received on our first visit to your site. You have done nothing but aileanate people who could be very productive.
This is a shame as you could have had new members with very good knowledge to aid your members and also learn from them. BAD SITUATION all around.
One final note when Ray hunter came on and Posted direct first hand knowledge of 1 case of venomoid surgery and its effects the thread was closed that to me was very fishy.
cobraman
Hatchling
USA
1 Posts Posted - 03/21/2004 : 3:37:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings all, My name is Ray Hunter. I was a co-owner of Exotic Reptiles Jungle, but have recently broke away to start a new company with Real Estate support services, and buying and selling property. I still assist Ricky Duffield at Exotic Reptiles Jungle with the venomous he buys and sells, but otherwise do not represent ERJ in my comments or opinions.
Exotic Reptiles Jungle sent off 10 venomous snakes to be devenomized about a year and a half ago. ***for the record, let me state that I am personally against venomoids, and had nothing to do with the decisions involving ERJ selling venomoids. I did put an immediate stop to it when I became a partner in the company. I feel that if you want to own a venomoid snake, you have as much right to do so as I have to own venomous snakes, but I do think the procedure should be performed by a qualified vet.*** anyway, of the 10 animals sent, the 9 foot LTC black mamba died during the procedure, 2 cobras were returned with infections and died (and these were not the same cobras we sent, by the way), 2 green mambas came back with infections and died, 1 monocle cobra was returned with an infection but was medicated and lived, and the Papaun Black snake was returned in good condition, BUT it was still hot!!! I did venom extraction in the presence of a witness to confirm my suspicions. The snake was to have it's venom glands removed and replaced with implants, but was returned hot. This could have been a bad situation for someone if I had not noticed how quickly mice were dead after the snake bit them. The bottom line of all that is that out of 10 snakes:
1 died during procedure
4 died of post op infections
1 was treated for infection and lived
1 was still hot after "surgery"
and
3 were returned ok, and sold
Not a very good percentage of succuess on that deal.
Again, I don't feel that I have anymore right to tell you that you can not have venomoids than you have the right to tell me I can not have hot snakes. If it is necessary to alter a venomous snake, I feel it should be done with (1) Reason, (2)regard to the animal, and (3) properly by a qualified vet.
Just my feelings on this issue.
Blessings all!
Be Blessed!
Ray Hunter
Hunter Serpentology
Yes i did not paste all the thread as the mudslinging got to far out of control. I do not want to see it here as well but i did post realvant info atleast pertaining to myself. I appologised on that site if i took things about my original post wrong but then more name calling came so I have to wonder about it. I again appologise for any miss fealings but A$$HOLES AND PETA ESQUE.. THOSE ARE VERY OFFENSIVE. Hard not to take offense to that.
Perhaps we can all say we were wrong in our actions and try to have a logical discussion on this subject again. But first you have to say im willing to listen to all sides of the story. Tanith and I spoke recently on a unrealted subject and she did point me out a few things on venom vs digestion where i feal she is correct and i was incorrect. I can be corrected and I was.
I am truly sorry for my action on that site and hope to do better with my temper in the future. However name calling will normally get a bad responce.
Sorry for grammar and spelling but is way to damn early.
Scott Bice
snakegetters
Aunty Venom
Specifically addressing the subject of antivenom, I hear a lot of people say incorrect things like "I can't get antivenom in my state" or "antivenom costs thousands of dollars a vial". Neither are true. Doing the IND paperwork to legally import antivenom is a slight pain in the rear but it's certainly do-able and the state you live in has nothing to do with it. Most antivenoms are actually fairly cheap. South African polyvalent is $35 a vial. The Thai product is about the same. The Aussie CSL product is what will really hit you in the wallet, with the polyvalent running from $1,000 to $1,200 US a vial (depends on what the US dollar is doing) and the various monovalents from $200-$300.
Now a snake bite can still be quite expensive, no question about that. Getting bitten is a bad idea, so if you don't think you can trust your handling skills or your caging facilities, it is really not a smart move to keep venomous snakes. Crippling them so that you can keep them as harmless pets is neither ethical nor reliable enough to bet your life on.
I have heard too many anecdotal reports of snakes sold as venomoids being fully hot, either from dealer fraud, botched operations or genuine regeneration. The latter case would be quite rare in a properly performed adenectomy, the key words here being properly performed.
Regeneration reports are coming from reptile specialist veterinarians who are well published and respected in their field. It would be discourteous of me to post their information and get them involved in a debate with the general public. However anyone who is serious about hearing the proof is welcome to have their veterinarian contact me, and I will give your veterinarian the names so that he or she can contact them and talk on a professional level. Better yet, attend (or urge your vet to attend) the joint ICE/ARAV conference this year and confirm this for yourself. Free copies of "Veterinary Restraint of Venomous and Dangerous Reptiles" to any vet who wants to take me up on this.
Now a snake bite can still be quite expensive, no question about that. Getting bitten is a bad idea, so if you don't think you can trust your handling skills or your caging facilities, it is really not a smart move to keep venomous snakes. Crippling them so that you can keep them as harmless pets is neither ethical nor reliable enough to bet your life on.
I have heard too many anecdotal reports of snakes sold as venomoids being fully hot, either from dealer fraud, botched operations or genuine regeneration. The latter case would be quite rare in a properly performed adenectomy, the key words here being properly performed.
Regeneration reports are coming from reptile specialist veterinarians who are well published and respected in their field. It would be discourteous of me to post their information and get them involved in a debate with the general public. However anyone who is serious about hearing the proof is welcome to have their veterinarian contact me, and I will give your veterinarian the names so that he or she can contact them and talk on a professional level. Better yet, attend (or urge your vet to attend) the joint ICE/ARAV conference this year and confirm this for yourself. Free copies of "Veterinary Restraint of Venomous and Dangerous Reptiles" to any vet who wants to take me up on this.
snakegetters
Aunty Venom
I should probably explain why I said that the state you live in has nothing to do with it. Some states do try to specifically regulate certain kinds of biological products and medicines, but as far as I know antivenom is not on any of the state lists of controlled products. Most AV is equine derived and thus specifically does not fall under most of the conditions and limitations. And if you import it as "personal use medication" and do not give it or sell it to any other person, there is a heck of a lot of leeway.
In any case your other option is to go get the stuff. Groups of keepers who trust each other will sometimes pool resources and help pay for someone who is already going on a herping trip, or even on a business trip, to import enough antivenom for the group. Technically this might be illegal, but as long as you are not selling the stuff for profit it is doubtful that any prosecution would result. Whenever a friend or relative of mine takes a business trip to another country, guess what I have them bring back as a souvenier.
I have stocked my fridge with antivenom in this manner, and you can too with just a bit of thought and planning.
In any case your other option is to go get the stuff. Groups of keepers who trust each other will sometimes pool resources and help pay for someone who is already going on a herping trip, or even on a business trip, to import enough antivenom for the group. Technically this might be illegal, but as long as you are not selling the stuff for profit it is doubtful that any prosecution would result. Whenever a friend or relative of mine takes a business trip to another country, guess what I have them bring back as a souvenier.
I have stocked my fridge with antivenom in this manner, and you can too with just a bit of thought and planning.NeoScales
New member
...this is sad
...again, it’s telling that I have to provide you simplistic context for your understanding and comprehension. When people say they have spoken “to” a problem, it means they’ve addressed it . In your case - I spoke to you as an “issue”, as in I've made my position about you clear in the previous posts. You’re a common troll, your behavior in this thread alone proves that here proves that as you don’t even follow a logical line with the person you were “defending”. Being a troll doesn’t make you right, it just makes you annoying and loud.
You’ve wasted everyone’s time, including your own in these misguided childish ventures. I’ve seen you so many times before (again, think context here…it’s not a literal statement).
-Randy
...again, it’s telling that I have to provide you simplistic context for your understanding and comprehension. When people say they have spoken “to” a problem, it means they’ve addressed it . In your case - I spoke to you as an “issue”, as in I've made my position about you clear in the previous posts. You’re a common troll, your behavior in this thread alone proves that here proves that as you don’t even follow a logical line with the person you were “defending”. Being a troll doesn’t make you right, it just makes you annoying and loud.
You’ve wasted everyone’s time, including your own in these misguided childish ventures. I’ve seen you so many times before (again, think context here…it’s not a literal statement).
-Randy
DavidBeard
The Louisville Lip
As some of you already know, I have had my share of run-ins with the people over at BC in the past. I know I may have a reputation for being a "troll" on some forums.....I am working every day to help distance myself from those actions. I just felt it needed to be said that Seamus Haley is definitely not a troll. He is a very intelligent man who knows his stuff.....I've bumped heads with him before as well, but he was willing to look past that and offer me friendly advice or info when I asked. I am not one to judge others based on their morals, opinions, or beliefs.
I'm not sure how relevant my post even is, as I've only skimmed through the majority of the posts, but I figured I'd toss my 0.2 out there. Take it as you wish and happy herping.
I'm not sure how relevant my post even is, as I've only skimmed through the majority of the posts, but I figured I'd toss my 0.2 out there. Take it as you wish and happy herping.
Gary O
Registered member
Man
Lets see.
Seamus has never gave me a problem on TRR. So I can not label him a troll. I do not judge people by the War Room. That is my member's place to post what they want. But I felt Randy Should know it was there and I emailed him
Now BC. I am a member there and don't have a problem. I did but I took it to emails and I solved me problem(Which was a small little problem that just blew up LMAO) Randy has always returned my emails.
So now you guys know I have no issues with either Seamus, Randy, Dr Owens, or BC.
Here is what I think a troll is. Someone that just causes trouble for no reason. But there is this line. Some people are very strong minded, and just becasue people do not agree with what is said does not make them a troll. Seamus is an intellegent person. But very strong minded. I think we have a few people butting heads here. Maybe agree to disagree?
I did not see the origanal thread so I can not comment on it.
Also I think it is a tough thing being a mod. You are held to a higher standard no matter what you do. I get it all the time myself. If a mod gets a little over board it gets blown up a bit more then when a member does it. IMO this is also wrong. We are all people and crap happens.
Maybe Seamus and BC do not mix. But I will leave saying this
BC is a good forum.........Seamus is a good person............
I know I will here it for saying both them comments lmao
Lets see.
Seamus has never gave me a problem on TRR. So I can not label him a troll. I do not judge people by the War Room. That is my member's place to post what they want. But I felt Randy Should know it was there and I emailed him
Now BC. I am a member there and don't have a problem. I did but I took it to emails and I solved me problem(Which was a small little problem that just blew up LMAO) Randy has always returned my emails.
So now you guys know I have no issues with either Seamus, Randy, Dr Owens, or BC.
Here is what I think a troll is. Someone that just causes trouble for no reason. But there is this line. Some people are very strong minded, and just becasue people do not agree with what is said does not make them a troll. Seamus is an intellegent person. But very strong minded. I think we have a few people butting heads here. Maybe agree to disagree?
I did not see the origanal thread so I can not comment on it.
Also I think it is a tough thing being a mod. You are held to a higher standard no matter what you do. I get it all the time myself. If a mod gets a little over board it gets blown up a bit more then when a member does it. IMO this is also wrong. We are all people and crap happens.
Maybe Seamus and BC do not mix. But I will leave saying this
BC is a good forum.........Seamus is a good person............
I know I will here it for saying both them comments lmao
A
ajc
Guest
David and Gary,
I have no issues with either of you, but I'm not sure why you've both decided to take part in defending a "Seamus Haley" escapade. Seamus Haley is the last name in the reptile community that I'd want to be associated with.
Don't either of you find it a bit odd that he has nothing better to do than go looking for arguments on the internet, save copies of threads "for his own amusement" and have "I got banned from..." t-shirts made?
The guy is nothing more than a social misfit with a passion for arguing. His deluded mentality explains his never ending attempt to portray himself as being someone of significance in the reptile world. He also has a habit of trying to appear more intelligent than he actually is. In reality, the only place he's known in the reptile community is on this site and aside from the fact that he's ignorant enough to use his real name, he's the quintessential troll.
Defend him all you want, but the bottom line is this. Seamus Haley has done nothing for the reptile community and his childish and disruptive behavior make it very easy to see what and who he really is.
I have no issues with either of you, but I'm not sure why you've both decided to take part in defending a "Seamus Haley" escapade. Seamus Haley is the last name in the reptile community that I'd want to be associated with.
Don't either of you find it a bit odd that he has nothing better to do than go looking for arguments on the internet, save copies of threads "for his own amusement" and have "I got banned from..." t-shirts made?
The guy is nothing more than a social misfit with a passion for arguing. His deluded mentality explains his never ending attempt to portray himself as being someone of significance in the reptile world. He also has a habit of trying to appear more intelligent than he actually is. In reality, the only place he's known in the reptile community is on this site and aside from the fact that he's ignorant enough to use his real name, he's the quintessential troll.
Defend him all you want, but the bottom line is this. Seamus Haley has done nothing for the reptile community and his childish and disruptive behavior make it very easy to see what and who he really is.
Mustangrde1
Sistrurus Motel "Welcome"
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Personally I do not think it’s a matter of anyone being right or wrong for a FORUM but more so how persons are welcomed to a FORUM.
Venomoid threads are always heated no doubt on that and emotions run high as a rule with this subject matter. However, be you the first Poster or the Hundredth Poster or if you are a first time poster or thousand time poster. All people should be given respect and there words taken as trying to be helpful until otherwise proven wrong.
As I used to be a moderator for a Hunting site I can tell you first hand and foremost I welcomed new posters even the ones that were A$$holes. If it was one, I advised them to reread the TOS before posting again and tone it down.
I will address the Peta issue as it is something that bothers me. If you think for one second Hunting forums don’t have them your mistaken so I do have some dealings with these persons. The tactics they employ were seldom hidden and they were very direct about their views. Many of them are fanatical about their views. When you called a blanket statement directed at so many of the new posters { PETA ESQUE} it was highly insulting and as far from PETA and its charter as one can imagine. Go read Peta’s charter.
Your statement was directed at people who do rescues who keep animals who are willing not to sit back and shut up when it is something they believe can be a threat to our hobby/industry and the animals we care deeply for. Something to think about before you say it again.
This situation was bad all the way around. I have a suggestion to Randy and Dr Owens. Open a new thread invite {ALL} persons back to discuss it and see if we can all hold a civil tongue and open mind this time.
Scott Bice
Venomoid threads are always heated no doubt on that and emotions run high as a rule with this subject matter. However, be you the first Poster or the Hundredth Poster or if you are a first time poster or thousand time poster. All people should be given respect and there words taken as trying to be helpful until otherwise proven wrong.
As I used to be a moderator for a Hunting site I can tell you first hand and foremost I welcomed new posters even the ones that were A$$holes. If it was one, I advised them to reread the TOS before posting again and tone it down.
I will address the Peta issue as it is something that bothers me. If you think for one second Hunting forums don’t have them your mistaken so I do have some dealings with these persons. The tactics they employ were seldom hidden and they were very direct about their views. Many of them are fanatical about their views. When you called a blanket statement directed at so many of the new posters { PETA ESQUE} it was highly insulting and as far from PETA and its charter as one can imagine. Go read Peta’s charter.
Your statement was directed at people who do rescues who keep animals who are willing not to sit back and shut up when it is something they believe can be a threat to our hobby/industry and the animals we care deeply for. Something to think about before you say it again.
This situation was bad all the way around. I have a suggestion to Randy and Dr Owens. Open a new thread invite {ALL} persons back to discuss it and see if we can all hold a civil tongue and open mind this time.
Scott Bice
Gary O
Registered member
Anthony
I am not really defending him. I do not go to a bunch of message boards like some. So I do not see everything. People have to point out when I am brought up places.......lol Ones I go to.
Mine
Here
BC
RTB.net once in a while
Corallus(but was shut down......)
That about sums it up for the herp world forums for me. I was just stating He does not cause problems for me on my board. Maybe it is because I have a area for it lol. not sure.
As like in BC. I have no problem with anyone there or the board itself. Some do but I will say I see nothing wrong there. If I ever have a problem Jay is there to help fix it.
I really was not trying to defend anyone. I see a lot of crap slung around and I see this as minor.......
I was trying to ride the fence lmao..............
I am not really defending him. I do not go to a bunch of message boards like some. So I do not see everything. People have to point out when I am brought up places.......lol Ones I go to.
Mine
Here
BC
RTB.net once in a while
Corallus(but was shut down......)
That about sums it up for the herp world forums for me. I was just stating He does not cause problems for me on my board. Maybe it is because I have a area for it lol. not sure.
As like in BC. I have no problem with anyone there or the board itself. Some do but I will say I see nothing wrong there. If I ever have a problem Jay is there to help fix it.
I really was not trying to defend anyone. I see a lot of crap slung around and I see this as minor.......
I was trying to ride the fence lmao..............
Gary O
Registered member
Mustangrde1
Let me say something about BC..........
I was banned from there awhile ago.....maybe a year ago. It was over something stupid that just got blown way up. But when I was there I was treated with respect and I only had something like 150 posts.
I was offered to register again by Jay Owens. and When I returned I was treated with respect by all posters.
So I am not sure if the post count thing holds water.............
I believe that Mods are human too(go figure) and when in a heated discussion they can lose their cool. It happens. It will happen again somewhere on some forum lol
Let me say something about BC..........
I was banned from there awhile ago.....maybe a year ago. It was over something stupid that just got blown way up. But when I was there I was treated with respect and I only had something like 150 posts.
I was offered to register again by Jay Owens. and When I returned I was treated with respect by all posters.
So I am not sure if the post count thing holds water.............
I believe that Mods are human too(go figure) and when in a heated discussion they can lose their cool. It happens. It will happen again somewhere on some forum lol
BWSmith
Just another Asp Hole
**Sigh** Yet AGAIN Ian, I believe you have me confused with other posters on that thread. And I do not like having my name thrown around in such a negative manner when it is not warrented. Perhaps after I mentioned it the first time on the original thread, you did not have time to reread my posts before they were hidden. But I find it hard not to get angry when you keep repeating your misconceptions and continue to be insulting to me.
From Jay Owens:
Thank you. Perhaps then, Ian can reread and correct himself regarding my posts and the insults he continuously throws my direction.
DavidBeard
The Louisville Lip
Anthony....there are far worse people to be associated with in this hobby....and IMO Seamus is not one of those people. Sure he is very opinionated and isn't afraid to mouth off sometimes....this ffends people I know.....but you can't get all bent out of shape because of it. Hes not really hurting anyone.....he doesn't rip people off.....he doesn't peddle sick animals. He is very informative in his posts the majority of the times and I enjoy reading them. I just kinda think the harsh words may be over-reacting.
IanV
New member
No, I have already pointed out, you were involved in the thread. And I still think the people on both sides of the fence (the far lefts, and the far rights) use PeTA-esque tactics when debating this subject.
Brian, way back in the day when I first joined the BCF, you actually were quite rude to me. And it was in a venomoid topic. Granted this was almost two years ago, but hard feelings are hard to kill. Other people were rude to me, but have since made up for the fact.
The funny thing is, I was exremely upset with Brett, but we have been exchanging emails, and it has become rather nice, and I doubt either of us are mad at each other. I doubt we would send Christmas cards, but we are debating in a mature and adult fashion.
What about those of us who also do rescues and can't see how it is so damaging? The names were first thrown from the anti-void side (ignorant and lazy). Sure, the thread was doomed from the first 3 posts, but who knows if all sides would have gotten as upset and pissed? I am not pointing fingers (believe it or not), and I am glad that this is clearing up. In fact, I have been speaking with a few of the people involved in the thread on the anti side, and we seem to be just fine about it all.
I have said it before. I will not apologize for calling the tactics PeTA-esque. Calling the people PeTA esque will get an apology from me (i have posted on in BCF already), but I still don't think calling people lazy, and ignorant, and accusing me of not caring for an animals welfare because I am not rabidly opposed, gets me fired up as well. I will also apologize for getting you mixed up with Brett the other day as well, that was quite a silly mistake and I am sorry that I did attack you for that part.
I also apologize the thread ended up the way it did. It may be a good idea to have a place to discuss it like adults. I am just afraid people on both sides will get pissed again.
Let me clarify, all sides were sporting outrageous claims. I refuse to believe that its close to 100% mortality rate unless someone produces some papers to help prove that. I should have finished that, but I only know the names Gregg and Brian.
IAN
IanV
New member
DavidBeard said:
Why do you feel the need to stand up for Seamus. The fact that he is banned from so many forums, puts him in a dangerous category. I wish I could just sit around all day and try to bust a bunch of peoples nuts.
Anthony is correct in what he said about him. He is just a trouble maker.
But can we all let this go? It started out on a totally different topic, and the people involved with that have no hard feelings. And I know that most of us are over the venomoid thread...so lets let it be.
IAN