Movement of thread concerning Dan Quinn- Manhattan Herps

[surfrkidts]

I know no one wanted to start this, so I am taking this upon myself to move it here where this can be explained and settled. I can't talk for Ryan, that is not possible, but I am talking for myself in saying that some of the things Dan has done are wrong. Included will be quotes from users that posted in the leo forum. I will try to start with the first and post them in order. I will not include those I do not deem necessary for some reason.

The original pictures

Manhattan Herps

o0 Ryan 0o
To quote you from another post... "its a great camera it shows their colors perfectly"

This is what she looked like the day we sent her out to you. You can see her color in comparison to the red and yellow on my Homer stool. It took me one setting to get my camera to have the leos look exactly like they do in real life. We helped her shed a few nights before too.

She's always been yellow, and that's exactly what she looks like in real life...and you know it. I don't understand how a leo can magically turn orange in a few days. I know every camera is different but you've always exaggerated your photos....maybe it's time to be realistic. You have some great animals, there's no need to overdue it Dan. Your mindset should be accurately representing your animals not exaggerating their already nice colors. Best of luck to you in the new year.

Ok if you want more pictures please see the corresponding thread. This should be enough tho.

Manhattan Herps
here too huh

read the email i just sent you.

i wonder why she look incredibly dull that that photo..and yet she looks so colorful and vibrant when i look at her, hmm...maybe she's just happy to be home

that was very childish of you ryan..trying to make me look bad

she looks nothing like she does in your photo, she's not that dull my friend, funny how you never said anything before..but now that we're arguing you decide to post that on 2 forums. LOL how childish

the contrast on the camera was high, which i fixed, but it did not alter her true colors, only her tail, and highlights are abnormally bright, she is not orange in the photo, the only orange on her is the highlighs, her tail and her head, wich are the same in reality, just less contrasted

here are pictures of her with the contrast fixed, and with her parents

Manhattan Herps
now i wonder..titan and kate both look pretty dull, from breeding..and yet she still looks vibrant, HMMMMMMMMMM

Princesskain
I can't speak for the gecko in question as I've never seen it in person. But I recently purchased the super tangerine tremper albino that Dan had for sale. The gecko I received looks just like the photo's he was advertised in. I realize that is somewhat irrelevant to the current issue about that particular female. But I was not deceived by Dan's photo's of the male. (Which to me speaks loudly, as I have felt let down on a number of reptiles that I purchased online).

Here is a link to the thread on fauna classifieds, and then a picture of the male with one of my females a few days after he arrived.


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/pp_...1&cat=28&page=9

Valerie
Alright, well I wasn't going to post here, but after reading your post I am. Again, stop with the childish crap, because you have no RIGHT to call anyone childish. I am sick and tired of dealing with this crap.

Yeah Dan, I bet that because she's happy to be back in your care she magically turned orange. We did a TERRIBLE job taking care of her...you can tell by her size..4 months old and 70 grams. Wow, we really must have been horrible to her. It's funny that you'd say that though, because I do believe you emailed Ryan telling him how great she looks.


I fed that gecko everyday for a few months. I saw her everyday with my own eyes..if I am so wrong on her color, then I better get myself to a doctor. I don't know who you think you're trying to fool.

The reason Ryan decided to say something, is because we cared for that gecko for months, and like I said- saw her everyday. When I opened your post, and saw an orange gecko..and you saying "the colors are perfect" we knew otherwise. You can say that the contrast is up all you want, but there's other issues with your camera as well..the picture of her and the parents 'fixed' still isn't even close. The picture Ryan posted of her is accurate whether you chose to believe it or not.

Manhattan Herps
you completely took that comment the wrong way, i told ryan she looks great...because she does, i never said you guys didint take good care of her, obviously you did

i still dont see how your saying she is orange in the photos, the only orange i see is her highlights, her head, and her tail

i will invite anyone over to my place to personally see that gecko, it is not as dull as in ryans photo at all

i dont understand how you say the photo of her and her parents is still wrong..their color is exactly how it is if you look at them in person, and since she's in the same photo...

i've said it over and over again, the first photos are contrasted, when you pointed that out to me i worked with it and and got it fixed, her body color is not as dull as in ryan photo, even my grandmother, who cannot see very well says she looks better in person than she does in his photo, you guys can sit there and tell yoursevles she's dull all you want, but she simply isnt

o0 Ryan 0o
My final comments since I've already told you most of I've what I wanted to say. Before this post there was another where you had mentioned that "its a great camera it shows their colors perfectly." Now this more recent post you're having contrast issues. I swear in the past year you've taken about 7500 photos easily. I have a pretty firm feeling you know your cameras inside and out, you love taking photos. Something isn't adding up because at least in my mind, someone who spends that much time taking photos must know a thing or two about coloration with their camera. Stop pushing the color limits of your already nice geckos. The only reason I felt the need to post was like Val said...we watched this leo grow up and she's always looked like this. Watch her grow... (see thread)

The only differences I've noticed in my photos is slight change in lightness or darkness depending on whether or not I take the photo with my light source or against it. The angle of the shot effects the lightness or darkness of my photos too. I have a few different photos of her growing up that show what I just mentioned. Some of the shots catch them perfectly and some are a little darker. Basically, not every photo you take is sure to come out perfect, but they all represent the leo accurately just in varying degrees of light. The final photo I used the flash.

I'm not out to be childish Dan. I just think it would be in your best interest to set your camera to it’s defaults and invest in some lighting. It will make a world of difference versus toying with the contrast. I know I’m not alone with the thoughts I’ve said. Frustration from our experience with this animal lead to this advice. Take it or leave it, I have nothing more to say.

A_Kendergirl
2 things...

The coolpix cameras tend to make the reds pop more then they should. I have a coolpix2500 and almost always adjust a little to the yellow.

That being said, you are in a huff (Ryan and Val) over what very easily could be your monitor. The photo on your monitor may, indeed, look "perfect" - but on my screen she is dull. So, if what is bright on your screen looks dull to others, doesn't it stand to reason that something bright on other's screens would look garish on yours?

No where have I seen Dan insult you. You guys need to have a margarita and relax for a bit.

A_Kendergirl
In Dan's defense, this is a NEW camera for him.

As everyone on this forum knows well, I take about a billion pictures of my guys. This doesn't mean I know my camera inside out. I don't even know if i can adjust contrast on my camera. I do it in photoshop. I try my best to make my pictures accurate, but I haven't a clue what the heck the photos look like on other monitors. I have seen my photos on 2 other computers. On one, they looked fine. On the other, they were increadibly washed out. It's a fact of life.

Taking a lot of pictures means you like to take pictures, not that your an expert, and not that you are trying to "cheat" and make things look better.

Valerie
No where have you seen Dan insult us..that is true. Maybe if you saw his original post in this forum early this morning..where he called Ryan a low life. He came back and deleted that, so he didn't look like a bad guy. If you saw..the things he has said to us in emails, the threats he's made, it would be a different story. All of that has been kept between them, because we didn't want to bring that to anyone's attention, it's a personal business matter. He HAS attacked us, there is more to this then just photos, that's been made obvious. If he wants to say any of that is not true, everything is well documented.

I have seen pictures posted by Dan for over a year now, where the oranges look neon and the colors are obviously insanely contrasted. If it's the new camera..then he must have had issues with the old one as well. If it is my monitor...then it must be the two monitors that I use, both of which are owned two by seperate people. I don't need a margarita to relax, I need this crap with this kid to stop.

P.S. Ryan has a Nikon coolpix 3100...why aren't his reds popping?

SurfrkidTS
Oooh Shanti give me a break. I have a coolpix too and the thing washes color out. My oranges LOSE color. I have the same settings Dan told me he had, not to mention a better model. The pictures it takes could easily call for some enhancement, but its not right to do so. As far as the monitor, ryan is at his computer probably 18 hours a day. He does this for a living, i'm sure the color is just fine on his monitor. Not to mention we have people who wish to save their reputation telling us they can also tell the pictures have been messed with, so it doesn't seem to be our monitors. For those of us who have been in the idustry for a while and know our webdesign and or photoshop, we can tell when things have changed. If you want a list of things to look for i'd be happy to send them to you, or you could google it. There is a difference between correcting the lighting on your photo to give it a correct hue, and changing color. Contrast does not just change black and white, it gives colors different values. The gecko in question simply does not have the mustard tones expressed in dans pictures. I've seen pictures of that thing with both ryans camera and vals, and vals insanely picks up orange. It still looked creamy yellow. That "yellow" on Dans gecko has a higher value according to photoshop than some other breeders' geckos have that bred for intense yellows. In case you didn't know, most yellows on albinos don't look better than yellows on shtcts, (or at least not yet). I'd give your monitor an adjustment check just incase. Jeremy was right when he said there was a lot going on here not seen, and you have no right to say Ryan and Val are in a huff. If you dealt with half the crap they've gone thru, you might think again.

A_Kendergirl
Well then, if they really are having such problems then it NEEDS to go to the BOI. Any person reading this thread that doesn't have the inside scoop will think the same thing - from what posts are here, they look to be in a huff over some photos and imagined insults. If that's not the full story, they need to take it where it belongs.

As for the camera, mine is the opposite. These are photos I took last night. The first is unaltered - and looks nothing like the gecko. The second I adjusted. Yea, that's right....more orange on the unaltered. The camera (and lighting) make a huge difference. Maybe it's just because my camera is a cheaper, older model. I don't know. All I do know is that my camera shoots towards red more often than not.

surfrkidts
I am in favor of moving to the BOI, however I don't blame them for not taking it there. Reputations get ruined at the BOI sometimes i think that don't need to be, and no one wants to make the first post pointing at someone. as for your camera, thats the way the cookie crumbles, but dan said the colors were true, if he hasn't edited that part out. He is a hypocrite, saying the "colors were perfect" and then "I told you the contrast was bad". I mean, what is he saying? I can't decide which colors are good anymore. If his camera does indeed pick up more color, why didn't he fix it before he said that. as for him calling ryan a child, that was completely uncalled for because I was about to point out his hypocrisy myself.

Sorry for any errors, this was a lot of quote brackets. I guess thats it, its done. It is moved to the BOI where it should be and if I missed anything just post it. No one else will have to deal with the first post.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Ok, so we got that part out of the way. Nothing can be changed now. So, Ryan, what's all the hub-bub about? I think we can all agree that the rest of the info should come from any involved parties.

 

[groovygeckos]

Whats the deal? Was this pic altered to make a sale? Or is it an inaccurate representaion of Dans breeders or something? Im lost here!

 

[o0 RYAN 0o]

Well it's a really drawn out issue guys. Close to a year since I approached him. It hasn't really gone down hill until the past few months. I would love to explain it all over again, but I think my emails and instant message conversations will speak for themselves. It's going to take me awhile to compile something coherent from a years worth of conversations.

There is one thing though, I need Dan's permission to post anything that he said via email or AIM. So Dan Quinn I'd like to have your permission to use any emails and instant message documentation between us from the start until now.

 

[shrap]

Well Tyler,

Since you brought this to the BOI I got a few questions for because I have no idea from your initial post exactly what you are trying to accomplish or what your beef is. Explaining your purpose for a BOI thread really helps. Your thread title makes no sense, and the post itself does nothing to clarify anything either.

1) Exactly what is your complaint? Too many unrelated quotes in your post that really make no sense.

2) Were you involved directly in a deal with Dan that went bad or you were not happy with?

3) What is the point of bringing this to the BOI? By your initial post I have no idea. And neither will 99% of anyone else who reads it.

 

[gmherps]

Well Tyler,

Since you brought this to the BOI I got a few questions for because I have no idea from your initial post exactly what you are trying to accomplish or what your beef is. Explaining your purpose for a BOI thread really helps. Your thread title makes no sense, and the post itself does nothing to clarify anything either.

1) Exactly what is your complaint? Too many unrelated quotes in your post that really make no sense.

2) Were you involved directly in a deal with Dan that went bad or you were not happy with?

3) What is the point of bringing this to the BOI? By your initial post I have no idea. And neither will 99% of anyone else who reads it.

I guess the BOI hit alull in excitement, so we have someone trying to "stir the pot". Give it a rest guy.

 

[Junkyard]

So all of this is over how a picture looks? I see the same leo in both pictures in a different light. What is the deal here?

 

[shrap]

I guess the BOI hit alull in excitement, so we have someone trying to "stir the pot". Give it a rest guy.

I sure hope this aint directed at me......

 

[Griz]

Well Tyler,

Since you brought this to the BOI I got a few questions for because I have no idea from your initial post exactly what you are trying to accomplish or what your beef is. Explaining your purpose for a BOI thread really helps. Your thread title makes no sense, and the post itself does nothing to clarify anything either.

1) Exactly what is your complaint? Too many unrelated quotes in your post that really make no sense.

2) Were you involved directly in a deal with Dan that went bad or you were not happy with?

3) What is the point of bringing this to the BOI? By your initial post I have no idea. And neither will 99% of anyone else who reads it.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I have no clue what his intent is on the initial post.....

Griz

 

[gmherps]

I sure hope this aint directed at me......

Not at all Sam.

 

[surfrkidts]

I'm sorry for the confusion. The original thread was getting out of hand, it needed to be moved. No one wanted to do it, so I did it myself. As far as the real purpose of this thread, there's more than one.

First of all, the thread this was moved from was arguing over picture enhancement. Basically Dan and Ryan and Val disagree on the true colors of the gecko. Others also said the contrast and saturation in Dan's pics is noticeable, not all chose to post it.

Secondly, Dan and Ryan had a deal it'd be best for ryans documents to explain if dan will grant permission. The gecko was involved, and few of us knew about it. I realize that I cannot fight this battle and only started the thread to move the topic. Ryan is compiling his documents to get them ready, and he will take it over from here.

Again I'm sorry for a lack of purpose. Theres a lot going on offscenes and I can't remember what else needs to be said! Details on the deal are now up to Ryan and Dan. As far as enhancing the pictures I will continue to fight it as well as many others who trust Ryan and Val as the truly great people they are and recognize their dedication to the industry. I will be the first to say this wasn't brought up as a random quarrel, it deals with the business ethics of Dan Quinn, which is why it was brought here in the first place.

 

[Valerie]

We never wanted this to go to the BOI, infact we never wanted to have to bring up anything dealing with the business surrounding the gecko. This all started because the gecko was sent to us for 'payment', the deal obviously went bad, and we ended up sending her back to Dan. It's not about different lighting at all, we saw a yellow gecko for months while she was here, and Dan represents her as an orange color.

Tyler moved the thread because it started out in the leopard gecko forum about the pictures, it was getting out of hand and webslave said it needed to be stopped. Unfortunately since I wasn't a paying member, he would not move the thread, so Tyler did.

As Ryan said earlier, he is waiting on permission from Dan to post emails and IM conversations so that the details of the deal can be seen for what they are. I'm sorry that so far nothing has come up, but like I said we really didn't want this to go to the BOI..it just sort of escalated to the point where it needed to be moved.

 

[KelliH]

Oh man, give me a break! Obviously this picture stuff really has nothing to do with Dan's picture and everything to do with the stuff about Dan's mom's website.

BTW, some of the Coolpix cameras do tend to cause reds to "pop" out. No need to "reset the settings" on the camera, that's the way it shoots on Auto. I have the 2500 and the 4500 and both do it to some extent, although the 2500 seems to do it the most. The only reason I even bought a Coolpix 2500 is because Alberto of A & M told me that is what camera he uses, and also Ron Tremper told me the same thing (he has 3 or 4 of them, seriously). HAha I just had to see what the big deal was with a 3 or 4 year old camera.

I think that pics taken with the Coolpix (at least the 2500 and 4500) show off the animals well, and the way the look in indoor pics with flash is very close to the way the look outdoors in the sunlight, which is as, well, the way they truly look! Here are two examples:

SHTCT, indoors with flash

same gecko outdoors no flash

Bell Hybino Pair indoors with flash

same pair outside no flash

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If correspondence was sent to you, it is now yours and no permission is needed to post it. I would also like some clarification on what the REAL issue is concerning this post.

 

[KelliH]

I would also like some clarification on what the REAL issue is concerning this post.

I hear that, sister.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Ditto's. I knew I was stupid when I started reading this thread, and now at the current end of it, I feel even dumber ! Help !!

 

[surfrkidts]

Kelli, as much as this thread is for the pictures as the website. It will be used for both, the documents will shed light on both subjects I am hoping.

The camera issue is arguable from all sides. I understand about the reds and oranges, what I beleive is the real issue is that Ryan and Val disagree in the true color of the gecko compared to Dan posting that the contrasted was the natural color and then going back on it. By the way that post is nowhere to be found at the moment. If the contrast was high, how long has it been? I've never felt that all of Dan's pictures necessarily showed what someone would see in person. Some are more accurate than others. Dan posting pictures completely different than anything ryan and val had ever seen was the catalyst for this, both issues should be addressed.

 

[Junkyard]

So what this comes down to is, Dan is misrepresenting his animals. Am I on the right track now?

 

[Valerie]

That is part of my complaint with Dan. Like I said in the original thread, the reason something was said at this point is because I just took that gecko to UPS (on December 28th) and sent her back to Dan. I saw her for months while she was here, I saw her right before we closed the box..and the pictures Dan posted are not accurate. If she doesn't look right, then what makes me think I should trust the other photos? I am not denying that many of the animals in Dan's collection are amazing, but I do believe that his animals are misrepresented to some extent.

Ryan is putting together a post right now so that the confusion will be cleared up. Please hang tight.

 

[SPJ]

Boy. This thread makes me glad I went back to keeping a few animals as a hobbyist rather than sticking with the business side of the herp world.
Too much BS.