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Mutts, and Morphs..

Tom Pecanic said:
Ignorance is that bolded word for you in that massively contradicting sentence right there. Let's see: can you guy's sell me on "The Toothfairy" and/or "Santa Claus" too? Check on a little teeny thing called evolution, and the few billion year's it's been at it crossing stuff up to make the stuff we see today? lol.:thumbsup: C'mon guy's: pretty please, tell me you know the "stork" didn't just drop funky stuff on this planet and call it a good day?!:rofl:
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Ignorance is really the optimal word to use in my opinion... My point is that your understanding of HOW the evolutionary process actually functions is clearly lacking...

My previous post, that you clearly misread, was pointing out that the evolutionary process is NOT simply the crossing of different species... In fact that is only a very tiny part of it. The real mechanisms by which evolutionary processes occur are not really something I'd expect people that don't have a strong background in molecular genetics to understand, so I'll TRY to be a little more lenient...
 
ReptileJay said:
Ignorance is really the optimal word to use in my opinion... My point is that your understanding of HOW the evolutionary process actually functions is clearly lacking...

My previous post, that you clearly misread, was pointing out that the evolutionary process is NOT simply the crossing of different species... In fact that is only a very tiny part of it. The real mechanisms by which evolutionary processes occur are not really something I'd expect people that don't have a strong background in molecular genetics to understand, so I'll TRY to be a little more lenient...
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Reeeeeally? Explain your contradicting statement then? Give us a lesson "O Mighty" one. I just erased a book I had belted out for ya Jay; 'cuz I gotta hear this; please give us/me the lesson of a lifetime, please?:yesnod: Tell me how it's reeeally dunne? Show me where my ignorance lies, and most of all point out the evolutionary process with/on molecular genetic's? I'm gettin a cup of coffee fer this one.:shootfoot Beggin ya to show me unleniency? lol.
 
What contradictory statement are you referring to exactly?

I believe what I stated was that while it IS possible for new species to come about through interbreeding species, it is not likely in most cases. That statement is really not much different than saying "It is POSSIBLE for me to get struck by lightening tomorrow afternoon, but unlikely"... and both statements are equally as contradictory (0%)
 
Omg evolution is when gene diversity and the eviroment causes animals to change over generations. Not when two different species breed. Under normal curcumatances two animals in the wild will even think about mating. Look at the polar bear grizzly bear hybrids that have been showing up. That's due to the polar bears habitat being destroyed and polar bears are being pushed on grizzly territory. Ask the Alaska fish and game if they consider the hybrids to be new species. This is why Thier called hybrids. They don't have a scientific name thefore not a new species. My zoology teacher would probably force you through a 5 hr lecture
 
reptile-phan said:
Omg evolution is when gene diversity and the eviroment causes animals to change over generations. Not when two different species breed. Under normal curcumatances two animals in the wild will even think about mating. Look at the polar bear grizzly bear hybrids that have been showing up. That's due to the polar bears habitat being destroyed and polar bears are being pushed on grizzly territory. Ask the Alaska fish and game if they consider the hybrids to be new species. This is why Thier called hybrids. They don't have a scientific name thefore not a new species. My zoology teacher would probably force you through a 5 hr lecture
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I'm actually rather tempted to give a quick lesson on here... though... I'm sure it would simply sound like someone talking about the "tooth fairy" or "santa clause" to someone without any background on what I'd be talking about...

I suppose we shall see though... If the explanation of why I was being contradictory is entertaining enough, I may just humor everyone with a Molecular Evolution lesson...
 
ReptileJay said:
What contradictory statement are you referring to exactly?

I believe what I stated was that while it IS possible for new species to come about through interbreeding species, it is not likely in most cases. That statement is really not much different than saying "It is POSSIBLE for me to get struck by lightening tomorrow afternoon, but unlikely"... and both statements are equally as contradictory (0%)
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I'll settle for the explanation of that statement?? And after that; you can go back to my original statement you said was, "ignorant," and then tell me why you'd say that? You seem college ed-u-macated? I ain't; so let me have it!!:(
 
reptile-phan said:
Omg evolution is when gene diversity and the eviroment causes animals to change over generations. Not when two different species breed. Under normal curcumatances two animals in the wild will even think about mating. Look at the polar bear grizzly bear hybrids that have been showing up. That's due to the polar bears habitat being destroyed and polar bears are being pushed on grizzly territory. Ask the Alaska fish and game if they consider the hybrids to be new species. This is why Thier called hybrids. They don't have a scientific name thefore not a new species. My zoology teacher would probably force you through a 5 hr lecture
Click to expand...

That bear that was shot down in Alaska was us watching evolution in it's infant stage. You kinda freak me out reptile-phan? Do you think in a couple hundred more year's there may be an established line of those hybrid's or not? :rolleyes:
 
So you want me to explain why it is unlikely for new species to arise out of the crossing of two previously existing species in nature??

1.) Most species in nature do not naturally breed outside of their own species, thus resulting in a low probability of hybridization occurring in natural settings.
2.) In MANY cases, the hybrid animal that would be produced from the breeding of two different species is not viable.
3.) In the case that the offspring is able to survive, it is in most cases unable to reproduce.

In order for an organism to be able to go on to become a new species, it MUST be capable of reproducing, otherwise it will simply die off.
 
ReptileJay said:
So you want me to explain why it is unlikely for new species to arise out of the crossing of two previously existing species in nature??

1.) Most species in nature do not naturally breed outside of their own species, thus resulting in a low probability of hybridization occurring in natural settings.
2.) In MANY cases, the hybrid animal that would be produced from the breeding of two different species is not viable.
3.) In the case that the offspring is able to survive, it is in most cases unable to reproduce.

In order for an organism to be able to go on to become a new species, it MUST be capable of reproducing, otherwise it will simply die off.
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Mmmmmm... I'm unimpressed Jay? I have a pic for ya'll. Explain this away; and tell me why it couldn't breed as well? How would we know what was viable, and not unless trial's are brought forth. I wish I could give credit to the founder of this animal; it was WC here in Scottsdale, Arizona. It happens; has happened; and will continue to happen; at the hand's of human's; and on it's own. Crazy stuff too!! This cat was found under a sheet of wood in the desert? If you know what you are looking at here; why didn't "the one" devour the other? Who, what, when, where, why, how, etc. etc.? It's life! And it's amazing; and it will do what it's gotta do to continue!! Whatta ya say? Hybrid's/mutt's/junk/trash/freezer bound; call it whatever you want; but it's going to happen on all level's. Turn the cheek if ya don't like it! Cyaaaaaaaaaaaa....
 

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Tom Pecanic said:
Mmmmmm... I'm unimpressed Jay? I have a pic for ya'll. Explain this away; and tell me why it couldn't breed as well? How would we know what was viable, and not unless trial's are brought forth. I wish I could give credit to the founder of this animal; it was WC here in Scottsdale, Arizona. It happens; has happened; and will continue to happen; at the hand's of human's; and on it's own. Crazy stuff too!! This cat was found under a sheet of wood in the desert? If you know what you are looking at here; why didn't "the one" devour the other? Who, what, when, where, why, how, etc. etc.? It's life! And it's amazing; and it will do what it's gotta do to continue!! Whatta ya say? Hybrid's/mutt's/junk/trash/freezer bound; call it whatever you want; but it's going to happen on all level's. Turn the cheek if ya don't like it! Cyaaaaaaaaaaaa....
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I can honestly say... I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about... I guess I'll just take this piece by piece...

Tom Pecanic said:
Mmmmmm... I'm unimpressed Jay?
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Are you unimpressed? or are you unsure... because first off, you seem to be asking me...

Tom Pecanic said:
Explain this away; and tell me why it couldn't breed as well? How would we know what was viable, and not unless trial's are brought forth.
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Where did I ever say that these hybrids CANNOT breed/reproduce? What I am talking about is the likelihood of these hybrid species NATURALLY occurring. The odds are EXTREMELY low, and in the cases that they DO naturally occur, they are most likely not anywhere near as fit as their ancestors. In the cases where their fitness exceeds that of their ancestors, they will thrive and become a new species, however in most cases they will simply die off over time.

Tom Pecanic said:
Hybrid's/mutt's/junk/trash/freezer bound; call it whatever you want; but it's going to happen on all level's.
Click to expand...

I never once mentioned my personal opinion on captive propagation of hybrid snakes. My person opinion is irrelevant in this case. Why you would make the assumption that it is my view that they are to be simply frozen or thrown away is bewildering to me... As has been stated before, the majority of the hybrid species that we see in captivity are extremely unlikely to be seen in the wild. They are for the most part only seen in captivity, where they have been produced by selective breeding, or in some cases, irresponsible husbandry. It does NOT happen at all levels. Take for example ball pythons and carpet pythons. How often would you expect them to interbreed in the wild? (hint... NEVER)

Tom Pecanic said:
. Turn the cheek if ya don't like it!
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Again, I'm not sure what you are referring to me not liking, since my personal opinions have never been stated in any way on this thread.
 
Oh... I forgot to touch on the cannibalistic nature of King Snakes...
The are not social animals. They do not often encounter one another outside of breeding, and when they do I'm sure the occasional cannibalism occurs. During breeding season in the wild, they are coming off a hibernation and it seems likely that the overwhelming urge to breed, combined with pheromones, overtakes any natural urge to consume a would be mate.

Now... I am NO expert in King Snakes, as they are not one of the species I currently work with, so if anyone would like to correct me if I'm incorrect about this I would greatly appreciate it, however this would be my initial "guess" on the subject...
 
ReptileJay said:
Oh... I forgot to touch on the cannibalistic nature of King Snakes...
The are not social animals. They do not often encounter one another outside of breeding, and when they do I'm sure the occasional cannibalism occurs. During breeding season in the wild, they are coming off a hibernation and it seems likely that the overwhelming urge to breed, combined with pheromones, overtakes any natural urge to consume a would be mate.

Now... I am NO expert in King Snakes, as they are not one of the species I currently work with, so if anyone would like to correct me if I'm incorrect about this I would greatly appreciate it, however this would be my initial "guess" on the subject...
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Please tell me you can see more than a Kingsnake there?
 
Probably a Hybrid King snake, but a King nonetheless. I'm not capable of identifying the exact cross performed to produce such a hybrid, as I am no expert in King snakes.

I thought your point was that Kings are cannibalistic by nature and yet they are capable of reproducing despite their instinct to consume one another.
 
ReptileJay said:
Probably a Hybrid King snake, but a King nonetheless. I'm not capable of identifying the exact cross performed to produce such a hybrid, as I am no expert in King snakes.

I thought your point was that Kings are cannibalistic by nature and yet they are capable of reproducing despite their instinct to consume one another.
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That is a king/bull cross.. Who-da thunk it? Wild caught and still thriving and looking at breeding in captivity.. Is this worthy to you? What about the Alaskan bear that got plucked thanks to a lovely human; I betcha he was viable; or she? It/them being pulled from the wild is the abomination.. It/they shoulda had it's turn; be it as it may.. Now some crosses are in human hand's. Probably the better for it...... I'm not sure where we are going with this disagreement; but I'd still like for you to read the initial opener for the thread; my statement which you called ignorant; and tell me why you would say that? That's all. Like I said, you seem educated?
 
Tom Pecanic said:
I'd still like for you to read the initial opener for the thread; my statement which you called ignorant; and tell me why you would say that? That's all. Like I said, you seem educated?
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This was your initial statement :
Tom Pecanic said:
I'd have to say; "yes, you're on a different page?" This is how new life is created/new species? Jellllllllo(Helllllo)?? It's what keep's this 'world' spinnin'..:shrug01:
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Bold section is what I am referring to as an ignorant statement.

The statement is, in my opinion, ignorant in that hybridization is NOT the primary method by which new species are produced, and is in NO way a method by which new life is created.

The fact that such a statement was made is not why I would have even gone out of my way to say anything, the slight condescending tone that accompanied that statement required my stepping in. While I understand that I DO have a strong tendency to be condescending (as much as I sometimes TRY to avoid it), I do my best not to do so when discussing topics I am not fairly well versed in.


Side note:
New species are in many cases formed through stochastic mutational events that occur within the genomes of existing organisms, coupled with the combination of selective pressure and random genetic drift. MANY different molecular mechanisms play a role in the evolutionary process...
 
Bolded; generally speaking of course.. May I get you a tissue now since I seem to have hurt your feeling's by being condescending to another for remark's I didn't like about ball python's.. Or can we be friend's?? Lol.. I love going to iron man show's; thanks for flexing; I'm still unimpressed..
 
I think we both "cornfused" now.. By bolded; I meant my "ignorant" statement; the one you bolded... Headin to bed Big J.. Great conversing with ya'.
 
Tom Pecanic said:
Bolded; generally speaking of course.. May I get you a tissue now since I seem to have hurt your feeling's by being condescending to another for remark's I didn't like about ball python's.. Or can we be friend's?? Lol.. I love going to iron man show's; thanks for flexing; I'm still unimpressed..
Click to expand...

My intention has not been to impress anyone, it is (in almost all cases) to educate. My feelings have not been hurt, and there are no hard feelings of any kind on my end of this. I just wish that there was a way to allay the common misconceptions many people have about life in general. It's amazing, the gap of understanding between the vast majority of people and those of us in "Academia"... Especially when it comes to topics such as evolution.
 
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