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My adult RETICS dropping dead

R

river9000

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I need help! I have had two large retics go from perfect health to death with no in between step. They were never together except for one day. Both ate a week before the symptoms set in:

they are:

flaccid (limp) , no movement, slow motion tongue reflex, no response to heat, cold or water. No prior health issues. I have been searching out the entire IBD disease, however, no where in the literature does it say anything about instant onset and instan death. No mucus, no strange excrement, the snake feels 'warm' before it dies. One strange presentation is that the coloration goes to a near unnatural bright state- meaning, the snake never showed such bright colors when alive, only on the final day and also into death.
Even the death is strange as the snake does not get rigor.

The deaths were five weeks apart.

The only tihng they have in common is that they ate food from Rodent Pro (but then so did my other snakes) AND, the first one died on its first day in a brand new Boa Master cage. I then cleansed that cage and two weeks later bought a very large tiger retic and it went into the same cage.

IBD does not work like a fast acting poison.

Can any one help me?

Thank you

Chris Ryder
 
the problem with ibd is that they can have for a period of time (incubation period) where they are asymptomatic (no signs or symptoms) and then can rapidly appear and die within weeks or even days.
 
Best bet would have been to take the snake to a vet for necropsy and testing.
 
did they happen to pass a weird gray slimy feces?
any regurges?


**necropsy is the best way to find out
 
Did they both die in the Boa Master? or are you saying that the BoaMaster was used for a different retic and she's doing fine?
 
are you saying both retics that went into that enclosure are the ones that died? I'm not familiar with those cages, do you have to assemble and seal them? perhaps something toxic?

I'm sorry for your losses
 
river9000 said:
They were never together except for one day. Both ate a week before the symptoms set in......
.....
The deaths were five weeks apart.
.....
the first one died on its first day in a brand new Boa Master cage. I then cleansed that cage and two weeks later bought a very large tiger retic and it went into the same cage.
Click to expand...

river9000 said:
the same cage was used for both
Click to expand...

These statements confuse me. Is the large tiger retic that you purchased the second one that died? Or was it another retic in your collection?
 
AbsoluteApril said:
are you saying both retics that went into that enclosure are the ones that died? I'm not familiar with those cages, do you have to assemble and seal them? perhaps something toxic?

I'm sorry for your losses
Click to expand...
You have to assemble them, but I've only heard of them being screwed together?
hhmoore said:
These statements confuse me. Is the large tiger retic that you purchased the second one that died? Or was it another retic in your collection?
Click to expand...

From what I gathered, that would appear so Harald. If so then I believe the BoaMaster cage is the culprit.
 
It would appear so - what? that the large tiger retic was the second one that died?

His initial post stated that the two animals were together for only one day, they both ate one week before symptoms set in, the deaths were five weeks apart, the first snake died it's first day in the Boa Master (unclear whether there were symptoms before it went into that cage), the cage was cleaned, then the tiger was purchased 2 weeks later and put in that cage.

If the tiger was the second one that died, how was it with the first one before it even got there (the tiger was purchased 2 weeks after the death of the first)
 
Boa Master sells thousands of reptile cages. I am simply trying to narrow down the list of 'constant variables'. Both snakes were housed in the same cage.
The first retic, 13 feet ( I had for 3 years ) was placed in the new cage the day it came (after I put it together). The cage screws together and I used Elmer's wood glue in several areas were the finishes did not meet.
The next day I put the first retic in.
Two weeks later it was flaccid, unmoving and unresponsive to water, heat, light and cold.
It had very bright colors when it was in this condition.
It died two days later. IT NEVER GOT RIGOR MORTIS.

The cage housed other boas and pythons. They have no syptoms.

Three weeks later I bought a new tiger retic 12 feet long.

I had cleaned the cage out with cleanser strong enough to kill all bacteria, perhaps not all viruses.

The new tiger retic went in the cage. She ate four times in four weeks. (all food from Rodent Pro.

Two weeks later (* so a total of five weeks after purchase) the tiger retic repeated the same symptomology of the first retic (flaccid, unmoving, no tongue movement, although the first one had slow motion tongue movement). I could dialate the first retic's eyes with a flashlight, but no body movement.

To my mind this seems like fast-tracked IBD. But there is nothing in the literature about this.

Back to the cage: the Elmer's glue would not do it. I did install regular flourescent lights in the cage (ceiling mount). if those lights emitted anything noxious- let us say because of faulty ballasts then ' why only the large retics?"/

Retics are pretty hard to kill. The large ones get 'large' through time and get exposed to many irritants- whether man made or naturally occuring.

Finally, both retics were fine the 'morning of' or the 'night before'.

I do not understand the extreme coloration or the lack of rigor.

Typically when a python or boa dies they sort of take on a grey look. And they get very stiff.

Both retic felt like a rubber toy snake, 'that supple'.

I have had constrictors since I was five years old. I have college aged children now.

I have only had snakes die on me from overheating ( my failure to regulate cage temps ).

Boa Master supposedly makes a state-of-the art PVC cage.

Any 'great' hunches or specific science would be appreciated.

My plan is to 'guess' that perhaps one of the other snakes is a carrier and retics are very vulnerable. I am going to isolate all of my collection into separate cages and then place a young CB retic with each one. If there is a disease (virus) carried by one of my snakes then the baby retic should sucuumb quickly.

What would the other choice be? Kill all of my collection and start over? I am not going to be a dick and sell or give them away and potentially transmit python AIDS to somebody else.
 
necropsy is gonna be your best bet. just make sure it goes off to the proper pathologist(s) for reptiles. rule outs are gonna be : ibd (i doubt it though), toxin ingestion, bad batch of feeders (again, i would doubt that), other bacterial/fungal/viral infections.

what exactly were you cage setups ? temps, humidity, etc
 
You didn't seal the cage after you put it together? Its usually done so piss and water don't seep through. Some sealants have a very powerful smell and very toxic depending on what type. Or is this what the wood glue was for?
 
Last edited:
this is simple: I had one large retic. I bought a new boa master cage. I had the snake for years. It had no symptoms. One day on the new boa master cage and it went limp and died.

I cleaned the cage.

Three weeks later I bought a large tiger retic. It was in the SAME boa master cage for 'about' 25 days. It went limp and died.

The symptoms are the same. I only added the feed times as a reference point.

Boa master makes thousands of cages. Could it be the cage? I dont know but that does not explain away the other snakes in the same cage and they have no symptoms.

I went to a hepr vet yesterday. He is doing a post mortem on the snake and sending some of the neuroligcal material out.

Personally, I think it is IBD. I think one of the cage mates is a carrier which is asymptomatic.

The vet gave me copied pages out of a vet training manual.

It is clear that pythons are more easily overtaken by IBD than boas.

My thinknig is that retics may have a less robust immune system when it comes to inclusions.

All of my collection came from reputable places (althoug that means nothing)
such as Outback Reptiles, Tom Crutchfield, Off the Ark.

The vet manual says that IBD (and they reference this in the case of large collections or zoos) can be airborn and that snakes in suspect conditions should be in different buildings.

It says newly bought snakes should not share the same air flow as the rest of the collection.

This mean then every reptile show can be emitting IBD to the entire room. The Hamburg show is in an especially small room.

It says hand washing and foot baths are required when handling one specimen to another.
 
i will say the first large retic that spent the one day in the new cage, had a pre-existing issue (whether it was ibd, other infection(s), etc)

ibd shows horrible signs (especially in pythons) although it does set it more acutely than boas carrying it for more time, i have never heard of ibd causing acute limpness and death.

there are many ways to track down ibd or ibd suspected animals. pathology reports dont mean a true 100% diagnosis. there are false negative and can be false positives (mostly based on the pathologist and making sure he knows what he is looking for and what specific inclusion bodies to detect that are ibd specific. you can have inclusion bodies in blood and tissue and not be ibd

note also, not enough info is known about ibd to definitively say method of obtaining, transmission, etc. more and more is being researched and found out, but one thing that is set in stone about ibd at this time, is that nothing is set in stone about ibd at this time.

i would request the pathologist snap microscopic pics of the inclusions (should any be found) and a full copy of the lab results.

based on everything presented thus far, i would highly doubt ibd is involved at this time (keep in mind i say this from a veterinary medicine point of view, since that is my career)

what were your temps in the cage ?

did you have to assemble the cage or was it assembled for you ?

was it new or used ?

what was your heat source ?
 
thank you for the reply.

in rerverse, the cage was new from Boa Master ( I had it out with Mark from Boa Master today) but he sells hundreds of cages per month).

The first retic was the beacon of health, eating, shedding, eliminating, constnatly moving about his 'communal' enclosure. At that point no snake showed any signs of anything.

All of my collection came from top-grade traders, with one exception .I bought a 100 pound boa from a zoo in Michigan. They told me that a drug dealer heading off to prison dropped his collection off at their door. No one would buy the snake because the shipping was nearly $1000. I found a ride-share on Craigs List and paid some guy to drive it my way for $75. He kept it cold (high 60's) during the nine hour dirve. It did get an RI which was vet treated ( robert pisciotta, dvm, north sfork animal hospital , southhold NY ) He is ocean mammal certified and I have been around exotics long enough to know a pro. We tried Baytril with Metronidazole but then switched to trimethasulfate.

Back to the retic. The Boa master cage came. You screw it together. I used a small amount of elmers' glue to seal the small areas of daylight. The next day the retic and his friends went into the cage, one day later he was limp, supple, vegatative. Two days later: dead.

I sterilize the cage, and I order another cage. Three weeks later I order a tiger retic of 12 feet. Tame, calm, healthy. It ate four times. Went into a shed, I misted it one morning, by dinner it was limp, supple, even more vegatative ( the first retic I could dialate the pupils) on the tiger, no tongue, no dilation, three hours later: dead.
The only other odd presenation is that they both showed luminescent colors, brighter colors than in life. Snakes usually turn greyish. They also get rigor. The first snake glowed as if backlit. Surreal coloration.
The first one: two days post death, still not rigor.

With the tiger, two days post-death: no rigor.

My vet also says no on the IBD. However, he gave me a copy of a section of some fat vet book. It covers IBD. Quite succinctly it says that IBD in pythons can come on instantaneously and death follows right thereafter. It is a vet training manual.

temps: 88 high end of cage, 80 low end. I have seen retic simply bust out of a cage that is too warm. and it is usually prefaced with frantic moving. Neither retic engaged in rapid moving in the boa master cage.

? why then are none of the other snakes affected : (diamond, blood, sebae, carpet, peruvian boa?? The 100 pound boa is by itself in another enclosure. )

Some virus that only affects asian snakes?

The tiger is getting a necropsy with organ slices being sent out.

any ideas??

Thank you
 
You keep species together in a "communal" cage or cages?

How did you determine that the snakes were in fact dead? If you said they were limp and unresponsive, how did you actually determine death? I ask because having recently observed a unconscious snake, they look dead and only by minnute observation were any of the staff able to tell he wasn't dead. Not that it means the snakes would not BE dead shortly, just wondering.

IBD generally does not hit instantly, cause limpness then death with bright colors. It almost sounds as if they're being gassed. Is that cage situated near anything like a radiator, window, etc? What did you use as spectricide? What sort of insect control is in the room? What sort of Flurescent fixture do you have in the cage with what sort of bulb? Was it preinstalled or did you install it yourself?

Your vet can consult with the folks at UF about IBD, but it just doesn't sound anything like the symptoms, nor have I heard that retics are somehow affected differently or more.
 
I am a student/former employee in the histopathology dept at a major university. Definitely need to get that thing to necropsy and have a pathologist check it over.
 
Why do you mention the flourescnet lighting? What about it could be troubling.

It is ( there are two of them) standard GE undercounter lights, I installed them, they have regular bulbs in them that came with them),.

I have never used floursecents before, can these be a problem? I am really good with electricity and I see no angle here, do you know something on this ?

Thank you
 
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