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Bad Guy My experience with Underground Reptiles

I just ordered a baby GTP from them (under ground reptiles) also she was shipped overnight with no heat pad then we took her to the vet right away looked like she had mouth rot and she had a huge scar from the inside of her mouth across her face and we havent been able to get her to eat, She is clearly sick we are hoping she will make it. We called and emailed them They will not refund us our money even though we have a letter from the vet saying she was sick and severly scared. They offered us a discount on my next order which came out to be 12 dollars off. We paid over 300 for our snake and am really sad that she seems to be suffering. We own alot of snakes including a 10 foot albino burmese so we know that we got screwed on this snake.

No heat pad, possible mouth rot and a "huge scar"and you're comfortable ordering more animals?

We just talked to Ryan at underground reptiles and they are awesome at communicating with us we did lose our baby gtp this morning and they are sending us a new with our order of the baby hognose we wanted . Ryan has been awesome at working with us on our issues and glad we are resolving things. Just wanted to update everyone since my sister started a post on this situation Thanks

Maybe this one will just have mites or a stuck shed? Seriously I can't comprehend what I'm reading here. I do hope for the sake of your other animals you're applying a PROPER quarantine process for the new critters.

I see a TON of active ads on the classified section for UnderGroundReptiles. I love that the BOI is helping to expose what UR is sending out but on the other hand I know I personally knew about/browsed the classifieds months before I ever found out about the BOI. Would it be against the site TOS to post a link to this thread in their active classified ads?
 
After my initial post I thought to check this. No heat pad really? There have been some pretty low temperatures lately. Poor snake.


forecast.jpg
 
No heat pad, possible mouth rot and a "huge scar"and you're comfortable ordering more animals?

Maybe this one will just have mites or a stuck shed? Seriously I can't comprehend what I'm reading here. I do hope for the sake of your other animals you're applying a PROPER quarantine process for the new critters.
Yeah. It's enough to really make you wonder exactly what kind of thought processing lies behind the decisions some people make. I mean, it's not like there's any context in which to think that their experience may have just been a freak, isolated incident. There's also the fact that UG is flat-out refusing to remedy the OP's situation. Personally, I'd have trouble so blithely endorsing a business who's very recently screwed someone over, in this very thread, no less. I guess that as long as some people get theirs, they couldn't care less about anyone else. :shrug01:

It's fairly mind-blowing that some people would be so quick to support a dealer who's so absolutely willing to send out scarred, infected and parasite-ridden animals in the first place. Especially when they, themselves, were the recipient of just such an animal.
Would it be against the site TOS to post a link to this thread in their active classified ads?
That would require a mod's input. Based on how often I've seen it done, I assume that it's not against any rules. However, this wouldn't be the first time that my own interpretation of the rules didn't quite jive with their actual intent. Either way, it's a moot point, since you'd need to be a paying member to post within a classifieds thread.
 
Research, research, research!! From reading up on husbandry requirements to feedback on the source you are considering purchasing from. Unfortunately too many people look to the cheapest way to aquire an animal and in this case the end results can end with a dead animal. A proper cage setup for a chondro is an expensive investment, but you get an enclosure that will provide a healty environment for them to thrive. Then comes the matter of the snake themselves. $350 for a chondro from a high volume importer that does not care about their animals, only about quick turn around and making a profit before the animal dies in their care. With a little research, she could have found a uscbb gtp from a quality source that actually offers customer support for the price she paid with a little legwork, but thet are easily available in the $500 range. If you can't afford the investment in the proper setup and a healthy uscbb animal, you probably don't need one to begin with. Not trying to pass judgement, but we are all here on the internet. Spend your time researching and checking your bank account to make sure you know what you are getting into and who you are purchasing from.
 
Would it be against the site TOS to post a link to this thread in their active classified ads?

Assuming the seller does not lock their ads (doesn't appear that they do) a link to a BOI thread is okay to post, so long as it's only a link and no discussion or commentary about it. As was mentioned, at this time only contributing members can post actual replies to classified ads.

There is also the BOI search button on the bottom of each ad -
boi.gif
 
I've only purchased one snake from them in the past, a female Red-Tailed Green Rat Snake who passed away recently from a bad case of RI that the antibiotics were powerless against, but while she was with me she was a very good snake, especially for a wild caught.

I have planned on getting another few, not right now of course, as well as a few other animals such as a black tree monitor since the shipping would be worth it, but after this I'm not too sure. They are a hard to get animal, and they can be very lovely with proper care, but this is the side of UR I didn't know about.

Sorry for your loss, OP, if it makes you feel any better your story has gotten through to me, as well as plenty of others I'm sure, and I do not plan to purchase from them again, less they severely clean up their act. For such a religious staff, this is anything but a decent way of life.
 
Wow! I was actually thinking about purchasing a few geckos from them. After reading this thread my business will be going to someone else. I am truly sorry this happened to the OP. Thanks for bringing this to light for others to see.
 
Wow, the fact that they would send out mite-ridden, scarred animals with mouth rot etc is terrifying! Thank god for this website! I NEVER EVER order online or from a breeder in real life without researching the bejezus out of them first and talking to folks who have bought from them.

I once bought a snake from a "reputable" guy, who sold me a snake he hadnt even QT'd from another person, and she died with in two months due to having Crypto. I was a noob, and didnt know to ask the right questions, but I sure learned my lesson after that...

I cant believe how crappy and childish UG is acting about this! I will sure let people who ask about UG to me to check out this thread!
 
I appreciate the sympathy and am glad that this is here just to help when people are researching. Maybe this will help others learn from my mistakes and bad experiences. I have stopped calling them. But continue emailing asking to speak with the owner for a refund and they still refuse any contact.
 
Sorry for your loss, and while I have owned herps and other exotics for pver 30 years now I rarely post anything on a board. first off I would like to address the issue of the cheaper price that was paid for the animal. Regardless of the price you should have gotten a healthy animal, so in my opinion the cheap price paid is a mute point. Second, while I have never dealt with UG I have made purchases from a few breeders i have found online, and one wholesaler. I have had ZERO problems with the few herps that I have had shipped.
The lack of the seller's willingness to satisfy a customer speaks volumes to me. I have owned and ran my own business in the past, and customer satisfaction is the key to success. A seller cant satisfy every disgruntled purchaser, but in my opinion more could have been done in this specific situation.
 
UG

I am sorry for you loss as well. My first purchase from them was wrong. They sent me the wrong animals. They were healthy but wrong. They corrected it, but still it was a mistake. Now after reading this I have lost trust in them. UG should be ashamed for conducting themselves in this manner. I was considering a purchase from them as we'll. Now I will not purchase from them until they respond or take care of their customer. I have to much to lose by bringing in infected or sick animals.
 
Look the issue here is the moral code and ethic of the owner. See there is a lot of confusion because Ryan is the "Manager" and Rian is the owner.Rian Gittman is the owner and you should really just do some research on him and see if he is the kind of guy you want to send money too in this business. He is a fromer criminal from New York who had a change of heart and found Jesus after a hit man supposedly spared his life. Then he ran to Florida born again and saved but got into the smuggling of animals and got busted.
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/1999-02-04/news/cold-blooded-smuggling/

Of coure his high standard of ethic continues on today. They are not really an importer. Few really are. What people do is buy animals from real importers and flip them.Still Rian buys animals(read the article in the link) from his old pal at Strictly reptiles and sells them. This is the core problem with buying from underground. But hey he is a great guy,he is a pastor. All the time he is ripping you off he will tell you what a great born again christian he is.You can stop by his ministry and ask him.This is exactly the kind of guy I want guiding my kids and community.He is a con man nothing less.
http://calvarychapeldb.org/people/rian-gittman/

I mean this guy?A pillar of the community?He has been ripping people off for years.He likes to try and threaten people too.I saw him make a veiled threat to a guy on camera when he was sued on Judge Judy not that long ago.You should have heard what judge Judy said about Rian,she even called him a hustler.The guy trusted him to sell an animal on consignment and got screwed.No matter how "nice" Ryan is remember he is an employee and the owner Rian is the one who runs the show. Do your research there is plenty out there and I am too busy. They are not responding becase they think eventually this will go away and people will lose interest.
 
actually here is a better link.Remember Rian Gittman is the owner of Underground reptiles.

http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/1999-02-04/news/cold-blooded-smuggling/full/

And here are some exerpts from the article.I am sure there is more in it but you get the idea.

"Gittman, already an amateur snake collector, had moved to South Florida from New York when he was in his early twenties, his departure hastened by a brush with death in which a hired killer stuck a revolver in his mouth and then opted to spare his life. After working a series of odd jobs, he met Mike and Ray Van Nostrand in 1990. Someone had recommended Strictly Reptiles as a good place to unload the snakes he had started collecting from the tall grasses of the Everglades. "The first time I went down there, I sold them some stuff, and they helped me package my first shipment that I sent to another guy," recalls Gittman. Around that same time, Gittman met a wild Australian reptile smuggler named Euan Edwards, a scruffy adventurer with a backpack on his back and no shoes on his feet. Edwards became Gittman's first employee.

Under the tutelage of Mike and Ray Van Nostrand -- for a while Gittman says he rented a bathroom as an office at the Strictly warehouse -- Gittman acquired enough knowledge, of both the legal and illegal trades, to strike out on his own. In 1994 he opened the Reptile Service, his own reptile import business in Deerfield Beach and with Edwards' help began bringing in thousands of snakes, lizards, turtles, and tortoises. Edwards became Gittman's globetrotter, braving malaria, dysentery, and Third World wars in order to track down suppliers and teach them how to properly pack shipments, both legal and illegal. His duties also included making sure payoffs -- for securing legitimate export permits -- made their way into the hands of the right foreign government officials. "In this country we think of payoffs as illegal," says Gittman. "But in other countries it's just the way they do business. Now you can't have an American guy go pay off a guy, but you give money to an Egyptian and he gives the money to another Egyptian and all of a sudden you've got your permits. That's the live-animal business; that's the way it goes."

Mike Ellard, owner of Burgundy Reptiles in Fort Myers, takes government payoffs one step further. Traveling on his own, he visits countries that are closed to exports under CITES and "lobbies" government officials to allow him to start sending out the first legal shipments of a given species. "You tell them how much you want to take out and that you are not going to be detrimental to the population," says Ellard, adding that many countries are arbitrarily closed to live-animal exports, even when a given species may not be endangered. "Paraguay was closed, and I got the first shipments out last year. The only problem is that, once you open a place up, within six or eight months, everybody's jumped in."

Gittman and Edwards rarely bothered waiting for a country to open up before sending out protected animals. Instead they devised ingenious new ways to get contraband reptiles past customs, including constructing false bottoms in crates of legitimate shipments and, over the course of a year's worth of mislabeled shipments, bringing in many times their quota of legal animals. (Many legal species, including iguanas, have annual import caps.) One year, for instance, Gittman brought in almost 200,000 baby iguanas -- they come in bags of 100 -- exceeding his 40,000 cap almost five times and in the process undercutting competitors who comply with shipping restrictions.

Along with smuggling, Gittman, who had invested in an iguana farm in El Salvador, discovered another, less dangerous means of increasing his profit margins: naming his own species. "I was getting in these blue iguanas," he recalls. "I changed the name. Instead of iguanas, I called them Blue Jewels, and I charged $2 more for each iguana. It worked. Every once in a while, we'd get a batch of iguanas that were electric blue because maybe the breeder fed them different food or something, and so we'd call them Electric Blue and sell them for $20 each."

In the end none of those schemes really mattered. "Rule number one on the street is you can't beat the government," says Gittman of the federal investigation that led to his downfall. "You can't win. They have too much money; they print it."

In 1995 Gittman was charged with smuggling American alligators across state lines and bringing in East African pancake tortoises hidden in false bottoms in legal shipments. "Prosecutors were out for blood," says Gittman of the ten-year sentence they tried to stick him with. "I mean it was just animals." He got a year in jail and, not faring as well as his old friend Mike Van Nostrand, lost his import business altogether.

Today Gittman is strictly legal, doing brisk business handing out Bibles while hawking all sorts of herps in clean, well-lit cages at his retail stores in Deerfield and Coral Springs. "I'm a sold-out Jesus Freak now," he says. "I'm not interested in anything else, I don't have anything else I live for. I wake up in the morning and ask God what he has planned for me."
 
Hve you looked into filing a Dispute with the Payment Method you did. You only have 45 days with paypal and some Banks/CC are the same and some little longer.
 
Oh wow. I appreciate your research. That is all just so crazy.

Well unfortunately it wasn't really research. It is common knowledge to most of us in the business.I have had my problems with Underground but I am a breeder who they have bought animals from.I am not a customer.To the people on my side of the business Underground has a reputation for jerking people around.A lot of folks won't deal with them, thats why most of their stuff is wildcaught.Their hypocracy also runs deep.Thats why I always made them pay upfront before I would ship.I stopped supplying them well over a year and a half ago. One of my biggest red flags is that they never want to communicate via email.They always want to do business over the phone so there is no record.Everyone should notice that.they always try to get people to call them.They do a lot of shady con man games.Good cop bad cop,always have you talking to differnt people etc. Anyway like I said I have never bought an animal from them yet had issues.The final one got them dropped from my list of customers forever.
 
I saw him make a veiled threat to a guy on camera when he was sued on Judge Judy not that long ago.
He was on Judge Judy? LOL Anyone know where I can find the footage?
 
I too received a mite infected snake from Underground, luckily it was a minor case and I resolved it but it was kind of upsetting. I have numerous reptiles and a mite infestation here would be a nightmare. I personally can't take the chance of purchasing from there again because I have to much at stake to buy from somebody who doesn't mind shipping a snake with mites.
 
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