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Bad Guy Mythical Dragonz - Stay Away!

it is not the time frame that is the problem. it is that if a customer takes the dragon to a vet without her or steven's prior knowledge that health guarantee becomes null and void.

if you adopted an animal out and they take it to a vet for a check up and it shows the animal is not healthy are you going to wash your hands of the whole situation?

that is essentially what nicole/steven is saying.

this is about both while steven has taken a firm stance that nicole has nothing to do with this particular sell, customer, or dragon. while you have spoken to nicole i suggest also speaking to steven since they are in this together.

we are not all this to make money. for many of us this is a hobby. we do it because we enjoy breeding these wonderful reptiles. that is what i do. we only sell to cover the costs of raising and caring for them. nothing more. that is i would like to think the majorities view on it.
 
Just so y'all know ... if you put the business card on the scanner first, then secure it in a corner, then put the paper over it, it can come out that straight. I would also like to point out the shadow the lower part of the card is casting on the paper.

Just saying.
 
Hello, I don't understand what's up with the business card thing, saw something about maybe my card being posted, so could use some help and I'm still new to navigating aroud in here and the computer so bare with me, thanks, Lea Chase
 
Sorry, but I never scanned my card, someone else did for some other reason unknown, my scanner isn't set up to use at this time, hope this helps. and I get my business cards from Vistaprint, thanks, Lea Chase
 
We know you did not do it, Ms. Chase. It was Nicole and Steven.

They posted it to show proof that someone had seen their animals and found them to be in good health. They needed to do this because Nicole has a history of lying, cheating, negligence and all around poor business ethics.
 
Well Steven and/or Nicole, you're at about 11,500 views and counting. Didn't think we were gonna let you slip to "page 2" yet, did ya?? ;)
 
So there has been nothing new that steven/nicole want to say? Simply hoping this will die down? Sorry, can't let that happen. I am sure we would all like to see some work with mike on making things right, if that will ever happen.

Any new developments on your dragon mike, hopefully she is still on the mend.
 
[email protected] said:
it is not the time frame that is the problem. it is that if a customer takes the dragon to a vet without her or steven's prior knowledge that health guarantee becomes null and void.
Click to expand...
I've seen numerous comments about that clause, and I can't help but wonder about the reading comprehension of the people doing the squawking. It also shows pretty clearly that some people are surprisingly naive having a business that involves living animals.
The statement was if you choose to contact other breeders or a vet before contacting us your guarantees are void. Now, pull your heads out of your respective a$$es and think about that for a few minutes. What is that message actually saying? The answer is "If there is a problem, contact us first". As the shipper, breeder, and/or seller, THEY are the ones that are going to be held responsible for problems - why should anybody else be contacted before them? There several SOUND reasons for having a statement like that in one's terms (not that I give them that much credit, mind you). For example:
- Maybe they'd rather replace/upgrade the animal than be responsible for vet bills
- Maybe they'd rather not take the chance that a customer will have an experienced herp vet available to them
- Contacting other breeders, or posting on forums, could yield advice that they don't agree with...and that could be detrimental to the well being of the animal.
- If that third party doesn't get it right, the animal could have further issues as a result - no seller in his right mind would want to be responsible for problems caused or exacerbated by somebody else (that's why the typical guarantees are relatively short).
Do I really need to keep going?

Contacting the seller/breeder FIRST should be common sense, and common courtesy - from what I've seen over the years, both are sadly lacking in many hobbyists. Think what you will about my saying this; but, FWIW, I think the basic idea behind it makes sense (though I wouldn't have phrased it in quite that way, since a common term is that a health problem must be shown to be preexisting...which, most would probably agree, involves a vet visit and supporting statement).

Of course, my statements only pertain to the policy that requires the customer to contact this particular seller before seeking help elsewhere. They have nothing to do with how the seller(s) might respond from that point - Nicole has made her own bed in that arena, and she's been known to LIE in it.
 
hhmoore said:
I've seen numerous comments about that clause, and I can't help but wonder about the reading comprehension of the people doing the squawking. It also shows pretty clearly that some people are surprisingly naive having a business that involves living animals.
The statement was if you choose to contact other breeders or a vet before contacting us your guarantees are void. Now, pull your heads out of your respective a$$es and think about that for a few minutes. What is that message actually saying? The answer is "If there is a problem, contact us first". As the shipper, breeder, and/or seller, THEY are the ones that are going to be held responsible for problems - why should anybody else be contacted before them? There several SOUND reasons for having a statement like that in one's terms (not that I give them that much credit, mind you). For example:
- Maybe they'd rather replace/upgrade the animal than be responsible for vet bills
- Maybe they'd rather not take the chance that a customer will have an experienced herp vet available to them
- Contacting other breeders, or posting on forums, could yield advice that they don't agree with...and that could be detrimental to the well being of the animal.
- If that third party doesn't get it right, the animal could have further issues as a result - no seller in his right mind would want to be responsible for problems caused or exacerbated by somebody else (that's why the typical guarantees are relatively short).
Do I really need to keep going?

Contacting the seller/breeder FIRST should be common sense, and common courtesy - from what I've seen over the years, both are sadly lacking in many hobbyists.
Click to expand...

That statement throws up a red flag.

I have to re read my guarantee. BUT the dragon breeder (dont know how many other reptiles can be stressed for little things, as i dont own many other reptiles) wants you to contact them first to see what the problem is. Real dragon breeders will know what the problem is over the phone. ( to be honest, real breeders of any kind dont send out sick animals period!)
Sometimes its nothing more than the dragon seeing it's reflection in a glass tank and it gets stressed. Real stressed sometimes. An they will hide or bury there head in the corner. They wont eat. They wont move unless there looking to hide somewhere else better. Sometimes its a ceiling fan that will really freak them out. (birds are known predators) An most can trouble shoot this right over the phone. What b.d. breeders are trying to avoid in that statement is the vet bill. You took a animal to the vet that didnt need it. So its not that all guarantee's should be void. Just the vet bill shouldnt be held over the sellers heads, in a situation where you didnt contact them with the minor issue. I havent slept yet so i hope i said that right.
 
hhmoore said:
There several SOUND reasons for having a statement like that in one's terms (not that I give them that much credit, mind you). For example:
- Maybe they'd rather replace/upgrade the animal than be responsible for vet bills
- Maybe they'd rather not take the chance that a customer will have an experienced herp vet available to them
- Contacting other breeders, or posting on forums, could yield advice that they don't agree with...and that could be detrimental to the well being of the animal.
- If that third party doesn't get it right, the animal could have further issues as a result - no seller in his right mind would want to be responsible for problems caused or exacerbated by somebody else (that's why the typical guarantees are relatively short).
Click to expand...

Well, I am one of the squawkers, so here is my point of view.

First, if I spend a couple hundred on an animal, there will be a well visit scheduled ASAP. I do not need anyone's permission(and make no mistake, seeking permission is implied in that clause) to do that, and if the vet finds a pre-existing condition I choose not to deal with, like internal parasites, my ability to seek compensation might well be null and void unless the breeder chooses to make an exception to their TOS.

- Maybe they'd rather replace/upgrade the animal than be responsible for vet bills
Click to expand...
They still have this option. They can simply say keep that one, I will send you a new one free of charge. All they need to do is reserve the right to "repair or replace" at their discretion. Mind you some people will feel obligated to care for the animal no matter how high the vet bill goes, and that is not fair if the animal was sick before it was packed either, the breeder gets off cheap and the buyer gets a huge bill for their business.

- Maybe they'd rather not take the chance that a customer will have an experienced herp vet available to them
Click to expand...

I am not sure how you meant this. Are you saying they might be afraid a qualified vet might uncover all sorts of uglies the breeder should have known about?
Or that the breeder might fear an unqualified vet performing expensive and un necessary testing and perhaps a mis-diagnosis they don't want to be responsible for? If the latter this is just silly, unless the breeder is also a vet (there are a few). I want to see the breeders medical license before I would agree they have a better understanding of reptile medicine than my vet.

- Contacting other breeders, or posting on forums, could yield advice that they don't agree with...and that could be detrimental to the well being of the animal.
- If that third party doesn't get it right, the animal could have further issues as a result - no seller in his right mind would want to be responsible for problems caused or exacerbated by somebody else (that's why the typical guarantees are relatively short
Click to expand...

I do not disagree with this, and didn't have a problem with that part, just the vet part. Too many "experts", and even a few that might give intentional bad info to make a competitor seem underhanded...not good stuff there.
 
I think all Mike did was schedule an appt with the vet before he contacted her, but he did contact her before taking the dragon to the vet and her advice was lame and did nothing to help the situation. At that point, he followed through with the vet visit.

From: STeven Walker <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Adult Red/Orange Female
To: "Mike Livengood" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 2:22 AM

Mike i have been talking to lll reptile they are contacting the company that makes the heat packs with my complaint i also asked them to replace my whole order as i dont trust the heat packs i have now. I will keep you in the loop on what else i find out, hows akira doing? Her favorite food is super worms have you tried those? I started the female we got in sick on baytril using a nebulizer it is the best way to treat any kind of respiratory problem. Did you turn her heat up a bit? You can keep a red light on in her tank at night that helps alot. Pardon my typing i am on my phone as we are having issues with our internet thanks to another storm.

-original message-
Subject: RE: Adult Red/Orange Female
From: Mike Livengood <[email protected]>
Date: 12/11/2010 10:25 PM

Steven and Nicole,

Sorry for the delay in responding. Been a hectic week with work and Christmas coming up.

A bit slow to eat so far. Seems like she may still be stressed from the trip. She arrived cold with the heat pack barely warm. My wife held her against her arms and still took quite a while to warm up. Have had her quarantined as is my normal practice when bringing in new animals. Have noticed some fluid coming from her nose, not much but enough to notice. Also, has she been checked for parasites recently? She had her first bm today and it was very foul, stinking up the room. Ive got her scheduled for a vet visit next week to check her out and do a fecal.

I've browsed through the BOI postings on Fauna. Looks like you have been taking a beating there. I have no desire to enter into any of that drama as I have no problem with anyone as long as they treat me fairly. At this point, I have no reason to post anything negative as I feel the transaction went smoothly. However, I do want to wait and make sure this animal is cleared by the vet before committing to any positive Good Guy posts as well. As mentioned above, there is a bit of concern with condition of the stool as it is pretty rough. I just had another dragon go through several weeks of Albon to get cleared up and can only imagine I am going to go through it again with this dragon. Will let you know what I hear back from the vet.

With that being said, I must say she is a very pretty dragon that was represented well in the ads. Ive had a couple others purchased online that seemed a bit drab compared to their posted pics but Akira matches up color for color.

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...
 
Since you (Mythical Dragonz) supplied a scanned copy of a letter and business card from Lea Chase as a reason to believe that she had recently visited your home and declared that your dragons are healthy, clean and well fed, why aren't you following her advice?? She came on here and said that she talked to you directly about making your guarantee longer and told you how a sick dragon will hide it's illness until it's almost too late.

If you're willing to use her as a good reference, why are you NOT willing to take her advice?? Makes no sense to me, but I would love to hear your explanation.
 
hhmoore said:
I've seen numerous comments about that clause, and I can't help but wonder about the reading comprehension of the people doing the squawking. It also shows pretty clearly that some people are surprisingly naive having a business that involves living animals.
The statement was if you choose to contact other breeders or a vet before contacting us your guarantees are void. Now, pull your heads out of your respective a$$es and think about that for a few minutes. What is that message actually saying? The answer is "If there is a problem, contact us first". As the shipper, breeder, and/or seller, THEY are the ones that are going to be held responsible for problems - why should anybody else be contacted before them? There several SOUND reasons for having a statement like that in one's terms (not that I give them that much credit, mind you). For example:
- Maybe they'd rather replace/upgrade the animal than be responsible for vet bills
- Maybe they'd rather not take the chance that a customer will have an experienced herp vet available to them
- Contacting other breeders, or posting on forums, could yield advice that they don't agree with...and that could be detrimental to the well being of the animal.
- If that third party doesn't get it right, the animal could have further issues as a result - no seller in his right mind would want to be responsible for problems caused or exacerbated by somebody else (that's why the typical guarantees are relatively short).
Do I really need to keep going?

Contacting the seller/breeder FIRST should be common sense, and common courtesy - from what I've seen over the years, both are sadly lacking in many hobbyists. Think what you will about my saying this; but, FWIW, I think the basic idea behind it makes sense (though I wouldn't have phrased it in quite that way, since a common term is that a health problem must be shown to be preexisting...which, most would probably agree, involves a vet visit and supporting statement).

Of course, my statements only pertain to the policy that requires the customer to contact this particular seller before seeking help elsewhere. They have nothing to do with how the seller(s) might respond from that point - Nicole has made her own bed in that arena, and she's been known to LIE in it.
Click to expand...

But the OP did contact them first. Right from the very first time it crapped and it had a bad odor (moreso than crap normally has). He made that first contact. They did nothing... so he took it to the vet.
 
RidgeTop Reptiles said:
But the OP did contact them first. Right from the very first time it crapped and it had a bad odor (moreso than crap normally has). He made that first contact. They did nothing... so he took it to the vet.
Click to expand...

Like I said, Kevin - my comments were only regarding the policy that requires the customer to contact this particular seller before seeking help elsewhere. They have nothing to do with how the seller(s) might respond from that point - Nicole has made her own bed in that arena, and she's been known to LIE in it. Just like paperwork for hets, a stated TOS is only as good as the person in comes from. It should be no surprise that Nicole would not willingly cover an animal; so it shouldn't be much of a stretch to think that her new associate would shirk his responsibilities, as well.
My statement was that there is nothing wrong with a seller wanting - expecting - to be contacted first in the event of a problem. I don't have a problem with a seller INSISTING on that contact, or even (at least on the face of things) limiting the buyer's claim if they neglect to do so. The seller not addressing issues is a separate matter.

Drew,
There is nothing wrong with planning a "well visit" - that is within your rights, and at your expense....and, YES, if problems are found that would be covered under the seller's TOS, that seller should be contacted. What happens from there is up for some negotiation if it isn't spelled out in the terms. Opinions may vary greatly on what is acceptable, or appropriate; and I'm not delving into that subject.
That acknowledged, if your trip to the vet is spurred by something noticed on your inspection of the animal, your concern - at least IMO - should be addressed with the seller first.
 
One last thing, Drew.
Addressing my comment - Maybe they'd rather not take the chance that a customer will have an experienced herp vet available to them, you said
I am not sure how you meant this. Are you saying they might be afraid a qualified vet might uncover all sorts of uglies the breeder should have known about?
Or that the breeder might fear an unqualified vet performing expensive and un necessary testing and perhaps a mis-diagnosis they don't want to be responsible for? If the latter this is just silly, unless the breeder is also a vet (there are a few). I want to see the breeders medical license before I would agree they have a better understanding of reptile medicine than my vet.
Click to expand...
I can (sort of) see where you came up with the first suggestion, but I think you know that isn't what I meant. Take my statement at face value. Your average small animal vet that has no experience with reptiles in general - or bearded dragons, in particular - can be reasonably expected to handle a fecal sample. Lacking a familiarity with the species, said vet would not be in a good position to assess, diagnose, and treat. I wasn't stating that Steven and/or Nicole were more capable than your vet, or any other...but don't most breeders have a vet that they see for their own animals? Is it that much of a stretch to think that some would rather have the animal returned and treated by their own vet, rather than hoping that the vet selected by the customer has a familiarity with the species? (I don't think it is, since on a couple of occasions when I received animals with issues, the sellers requested that very thing.)
 
hhmoore said:
I can (sort of) see where you came up with the first suggestion, but I think you know that isn't what I meant. Take my statement at face value.
Click to expand...

I didn't think you meant it that way, but we are having this side bar in a thread about someone known for underhanded business practices...gotta cover all the bases;)

Your average small animal vet that has no experience with reptiles in general - or bearded dragons, in particular - can be reasonably expected to handle a fecal sample. Lacking a familiarity with the species, said vet would not be in a good position to assess, diagnose, and treat. I wasn't stating that Steven and/or Nicole were more capable than your vet, or any other...but don't most breeders have a vet that they see for their own animals? Is it that much of a stretch to think that some would rather have the animal returned and treated by their own vet, rather than hoping that the vet selected by the customer has a familiarity with the species? (I don't think it is, since on a couple of occasions when I received animals with issues, the sellers requested that very thing.)
Click to expand...

I hear you, I see your point. To me though it still boils down to, if a breeder sent me an animal that I see having obvious issues, I have little confidence in their over the phone opinion versus a trained vet, whether they are familiar with reptiles or not. If they treat them at all they should at least have some resources available they can refer too.

Return shipping... if the animal is in bad shape, I personally would not feel right in boxing it up and sending it back, who knows if it will make it through the shipping process? And again, I have to refer back to the breeder who initially shipped an animal with problems.

I see two different philosophies here, and I am not passing judgement but it sorts out (at least in my head) similar to the IBD dilema.

One breeder would cull their entire collection the second IBD is confirmed.
Another would lock their collection down and keep the animals as pets.

To me breeding is an extension of a hobby, and I keep the animals because I love them. To someone with more of an investment, a different perspective might well make sense. I would rather treat the animal I received, as a personal duty to that individual, than take chances with it falling out of recovery in the return shipping process.

If the breeder sent it that way, I would expect them to work with me and not point to some sentence in their TOS and say...sorry you are SOL.
 
Absolutely. And please remember that when I made that short list, it was about why one (generic) might put that in a TOS. I did state in that post that I don't give this particular pair that much credit - simply because, given the history of the one (and the phrasing, which I also commented on) it does seem to be more of a way out of addressing problems.

I still don't fault any breeder or seller for wanting to/ asking to/ insisting on being notified first; and I don't necessarily feel that most people would enter that statement in their TOS to replace qualified veterinary care. It is a preliminary measure that SHOULD help reduce incidents of customer dissatisfaction, not increase them. (I guess one of our differences is that I am addressing the statement in and of itself, not as it might be applied by this particular pair). Again, though, a TOS is only as good as the person behind it.
 
hhmoore said:
(I guess one of our differences is that I am addressing the statement in and of itself, not as it might be applied by this particular pair). Again, though, a TOS is only as good as the person behind it.
Click to expand...

Bingo. Not addressing the people, but the TOS itself as it's written. :thumbsup:
 
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